Thread: New routine

Originally Posted by johnson 45

Hello all! I would like to drop down to a 4day a week training routine,and I would like some suggestions on 4day workout routines.

My workout now is...

Sun chest
mon arms
tues back
wed off
thur shoulders
fri legs
sat off

Thanks everybody...

Arms and shoulders don't need entire sessions.

A session devoted to chest, a session devoted to shoulders, and one devoted to arms -- of which half I assume is triceps -- is far too much pushing for your upper body. This will put you at great risk for rotator cuff injury. Balance your pushing and pulling.

This "program" is only 1/5 lower body. That's terrible. Your lower body comprises at least 50% of your body, and contains the largest muscle groups in the body. Not only are you cheating yourself of greater growth potential by training the larger muscle groups, you're setting yourself for muscular/strength imbalances down the road that will not only make you look ridiculous but potentially cause lower back/spine injuries.

You said 4 days, this is 5.

What are your goals? Training experience? Exercises? Periodization? (how you plan to use this program in the long-run to achieve what you're after? write programs -- not routines; have a plan, and structure your training accordingly)

Most important -- provide a detailed description of your diet. Nutrition ultimately determines your success.

Read the first post in each link, then make a new four day routine and post it.

Guide To Designing A Routine

Designing a Split Routine

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

Read the first post in each link, then make a new four day routine and post it.

Guide To Designing A Routine

Designing a Split Routine

Damn you and your precious stickies! Damn you, I say!

phineas, dude I'm not looking for a new diet and thanks for the training advise but I think many would argue with you about your position on training arms.I train calfs 3 times a week by the way . I dident say I had hit a plateau,only that I though I was STARTING to overtrain.And I know the workout I listed is 5 Days....thats why I'm asking for suggestions on a 4 Day routine. Sorry if I was not clear about it.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Damn you and your precious stickies! Damn you, I say!

It's my standard response now. I figure if they're not willing to read a couple of really good posts then fuck'em.

That's not a training program, it's just a list of body parts.

Originally Posted by johnson 45

phineas, dude I'm not looking for a new diet and thanks for the training advise but I think many would argue with you about your position on training arms.I train calfs 3 times a week by the way . I dident say I had hit a plateau,only that I though I was STARTING to overtrain.And I know the workout I listed is 5 Days....thats why I'm asking for suggestions on a 4 Day routine. Sorry if I was not clear about it.

It doesn't matter if people don't ask for a new diet. You said you were overtraining, and usually people's problem isn't training but diet. Everyone thinks they have a great diet, when after a quick post we assess it and they realize it was total crap. When you ask for program advice here you're going to get bothered about diet, because a program won't work without a solid diet. Diet is just as much a part of training as barbells and dumbbells.

Many people would argue about the arm thing, yes, but those are the people who don't understand the mechanics of the muscular system, growth hormones, central nervous system, periodization, etc. Just because you want your biceps to grow doesn't mean you need to do arm curls. Pullups train the biceps, rows train the biceps, even deadlifts and cleans train the biceps. Training arms, or any secondary assisting muscle, directly is like having a diswasher yet washing everything by hand. You can be more efficient -- get better results faster. Do some reading on compound lifting and growth hormones.

There's nothing wrong with doing some isolation for lagging muscles, but you don't need to devote all that regular scheduled training to what are only secondary, assisting muscles. They get plenty of stimulation from compound movements. I dropped arm training and muscle group splits last fall, took up compounds-only push/pull training (balancing lower body and upper 50/50) and since then my arms have grown about 2 inches. Increase your rows and pullups and you'll increase your biceps.

Sounds good, could you maybe post your routine? I would like to try it. Your right too my diet sucks ass right now! And I'm wondering why my arms look less diffined lol.

Thanks Dude!!

Read those posts PushAndPull linked you to and you could make a great program yourself.

Phineas is dead on, wasting a whole day on tiny muscles like the arms is stupid and will net you practically no results compared to the effort you'll put in.

So you break your arm routine in with larger parts? You cant just not train arms thats nuts!

My workout now

Day 1 incline DB press, incline flyes, Barbell bench, flat bech flyes,dips
Day 2 skull crushers,cable pull downs,kick backs,
Barbell curls,incline dumbell curls, consentration curls
Day 3 military press,arnold presses,side lateral raises, dumbell shrugs
Day 4 Off
Day 5 pull downs,chainsaws.barbell rows,pulldowns behind the neck,bent over rows ( rear delts)
Day 6 squats,leg extentions,stiff leg dead lifts,hamstring curls.
Day 7 Off

Also I do calfs about 3 times per week. I do 3 sets of each exercise,reps are 12,10.8

Age 33
5'10
193
body fat is around 9% I'm guessing. I can see my abs,not great but I can see them lol

Maybe you could post your routines.

Thanks...

Monday: Squat, bench press, deadlift

Wednesday: Squat, military press, bent over DB rows

Friday: Squat, bench press, deadlift

I add stuff like side bends, chinups, and farmer's walks as assistance.

Looks good but I dont understand,how can you not train all the heads of a muscle and say your a bodybuilder?Are you a powerlifter? What are your stats?

Not trying to argue I just have never heard of anybody not training arms or all the heads of the delts or all the heads of any other muscle for that matter.

Let me ask you something:

Do you think it is better for your delts to do 30lb. lateral raises or 130lb. military presses?

Also, between chinups, military presses, and bench press, how are "all of the heads of the muscle" not trained?

I think its best to do presses followed by side laterals,an if you are doing 40 to failure on side laterals...how do you think your not building mass? Presses are a great foundation in any routine but it cant be all you do,thats not bodybuilding.

Your saying to do chinups,bench and pullups for delts?

Chinups and bench are great but come on Man, your not isolating the delts at all.
So is that how you train arms as well?

Do you have any pics of yourself?

Why do I need to isolate my delts for them to get work?

And I don't train arms, I think that's silly. My arms get plenty of stimulus from pressing, deadlifting, squatting, rows, and chins.

It's not about building mass. Building mass is done in the kitchen and on the sofa. The point of training is to get the stimulus your body needs to grow. Standing around lifting a 40 lb. dumbell 25 times to me isn't telling my body it needs to grow like putting 225lbs. accros my back and squatting it through a full ROM.

You say, "Why not do both?" The answer is pretty simple: efficiency. You only have so much energy. Why use that energy to go to failure on an isolation exercise that only stimulates maybe one muscle group when you could use it to do an exercise that stimulates the entire body? That's extra time and energy expenditure that neither you nor I nor anyone else really needs.

Now I am not saying shoulder laterals are useless. They have their place as an injury-prevention exercise. What I am saying is that to use isolation exercises extensively in any training program is a waste.

Not only is it a waste though - it's setting you up for problems with overtraining. The delts are a relatively small muscle group and if you're doing heavy sets of chinups, rows, deadlifts, and bench press, they're already getting a lot of stimulation. Why then, would you devote an entire extra day to training them when you already train them 3 times per week? The same can be said of biceps and triceps.

And hell no I don't take pictures of myself. I also don't look at myself in the mirror when I'm at the gym.

Originally Posted by johnson 45

I think its best to do presses followed by side laterals,an if you are doing 40 to failure on side laterals...how do you think your not building mass? Presses are a great foundation in any routine but it cant be all you do,thats not bodybuilding.

Your saying to do chinups,bench and pullups for delts?

Chinups and bench are great but come on Man, your not isolating the delts at all.
So is that how you train arms as well?

Do you have any pics of yourself?

This is hilarious.

johnson 45, the delts are an assisting muscle. They're not intended to work on their own; they're intended to assist larger muscles in pushing (anterior and lateral deltoids) and pulling (posterior deltoids).

Training smaller muscles directly is a waste of time because very few growth hormones are released. I stopped doing arm curls, tricep extensions, lateral raises, etc, almost a year ago and my arm growth took off. I'm not shitting you, man. We're not lying about this. This is just a part of bodybuilding most people don't get.

Professional bodybuilders isolate arms because (a) they're on gear and can handle what to most people is total overtraining, (b) they're all overly obsessed with arms, and (c) the IFBB pros tend to train very inefficiently as it is. They use more machines than free-weights; they train with far too many isolation movements; and they cheat on every fucking lift. They're ripped because they're juiced up to the max and lifting retarded weight. Even with bad form and imbalanced training, they'll grow.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

Why do I need to isolate my delts for them to get work?

And I don't train arms, I think that's silly. My arms get plenty of stimulus from pressing, deadlifting, squatting, rows, and chins.

It's not about building mass. Building mass is done in the kitchen and on the sofa. The point of training is to get the stimulus your body needs to grow. Standing around lifting a 40 lb. dumbell 25 times to me isn't telling my body it needs to grow like putting 225lbs. accros my back and squatting it through a full ROM.

You say, "Why not do both?" The answer is pretty simple: efficiency. You only have so much energy. Why use that energy to go to failure on an isolation exercise that only stimulates maybe one muscle group when you could use it to do an exercise that stimulates the entire body? That's extra time and energy expenditure that neither you nor I nor anyone else really needs.

Now I am not saying shoulder laterals are useless. They have their place as an injury-prevention exercise. What I am saying is that to use isolation exercises extensively in any training program is a waste.

Not only is it a waste though - it's setting you up for problems with overtraining. The delts are a relatively small muscle group and if you're doing heavy sets of chinups, rows, deadlifts, and bench press, they're already getting a lot of stimulation. Why then, would you devote an entire extra day to training them when you already train them 3 times per week? The same can be said of biceps and triceps.

And hell no I don't take pictures of myself. I also don't look at myself in the mirror when I'm at the gym.

Very nice.

That is not bodybuilding,the muscles in your arms are not secondary muscle and they are not stabalizer muscle either,they are muscle that need to be trained like any other. You can do heavy compound movements with arms also,but you cant just neglect them.

No offence but you have lots to learn about bodybuilding. I have been training for 15 years and I have never seen a bodybuilder train like that,I have seen powerlifters train that way. I have met some top Guys over the years and they do not train like that. When I was visiting a good Friend of mine in Florida I had the pleasure to train with Gunter Schlierkamp,well I was there but it was really my Friend who trained with Him.Anyway He did an arm workout and He did many isolation exercises including 225lb scull crushers, but I know you would not do that right?

Also when wwe was in Calgary ( where I lived for 14 years) they where at my Gym and I could not help but to keep an eye on His workout,and He did a very bodybuilder like workout lots of isolation. He did not do squats chinups and millitary presses then leave.

What I'm trying to show you is, you can do isolation along with compound movements. If you do isolation heavy and to failure then you will grow like a motherfucker!

dont mistake my question for lack of knowledge,I only asked for some sugestions on 4 day routines,I can certainly do One myself.

Dude no offence but you should not give advise if you dont know what your talking about.You dont take pics or look in the mirror because you dont like what you see.

Guys put some pics up, I would like to see your massive arms that have grown 2inches after not working them directly.

Buddy come on, so your saying that the pros are only that way because of juice? And your the One who really knows how train?

Just your little comment at the bottom

You can't win an argument against someone who's retarded. proves that its your way or no way, so you can have it Dude I'm done with this thread.

Happy training Guys.....

I don't look in the mirror or take pictures because I think it's a bit gay to tell you the truth. I'd rather spend my time lifting heavy weights than curling 40 lb. dumbells in front of the mirror. I'm not entering a show or anything like that anytime soon.

You asked for advice. If you don't want to take our advice that's up to you. But don't call us retarded for our opinions on training. Clearly there was something dissatisfying with your original training program that prompted you to ask us for our advice. But if you're going to ask for advice, calling the people that are trying to help you idiots is not necessarily a good way to endear yourself to them. You want me to post pictures? I don't see why that's necessary. Do you need character references as well?

Look, I don't care how some IFBB pro works out. He's on tons of gear, has his own chef, a massage therapist, coaches, etc. all devoted to training and recovery. Lifting is his job and he can devote the entirety of his energy and time to training and recovery. I can't, and I doubt you can. I prefer to be efficient with my workouts. That means I have to cut out crap like curls.

I also prefer to base my training programs around science and not antiquated bodybuilding principles. A sample size of n=1 doesn't prove anything, especially when that one guy doesn't even come close to reflecting the type of lifestyle you or I lead.

Sorry if I offended you Guys,lets just say that we agree to disagree cool?

Take care and happy training Dudes!

Originally Posted by johnson 45

That is not bodybuilding,the muscles in your arms are not secondary muscle and they are not stabalizer muscle either,they are muscle that need to be trained like any other. You can do heavy compound movements with arms also,but you cant just neglect them.

No offence but you have lots to learn about bodybuilding. I have been training for 15 years and I have never seen a bodybuilder train like that,I have seen powerlifters train that way. I have met some top Guys over the years and they do not train like that. When I was visiting a good Friend of mine in Florida I had the pleasure to train with Gunter Schlierkamp,well I was there but it was really my Friend who trained with Him.Anyway He did an arm workout and He did many isolation exercises including 225lb scull crushers, but I know you would not do that right?

Also when wwe was in Calgary ( where I lived for 14 years) they where at my Gym and I could not help but to keep an eye on His workout,and He did a very bodybuilder like workout lots of isolation. He did not do squats chinups and millitary presses then leave.

What I'm trying to show you is, you can do isolation along with compound movements. If you do isolation heavy and to failure then you will grow like a motherfucker!

dont mistake my question for lack of knowledge,I only asked for some sugestions on 4 day routines,I can certainly do One myself.

Dude no offence but you should not give advise if you dont know what your talking about.You dont take pics or look in the mirror because you dont like what you see.

So, your logic is follow what the muscular steroid user does?

No, the only reason pros succeed isn't drugs, but it's a large part of the reason. They wouldn't be able to train like that if they were natural.

Look, swallow your false sense of moronic pride and listen to someone for a second. Old ideas are constantly disproven. There was a time when the greatest minds thought the Earth was flat; there was a time when Jews and Blacks were "scientifically proven" to be less intelligent; there was a time when lobotamies were accepted by the scientific community as a valid procedure. Times change, and so does our understanding of the world.

There's nothing wrong with isolation. The fact is it's less efficient.

You're wrong. The biceps, etc, are assisting/secondary muscles for the larger muscle groups like the lats, quads, etc. If you would ever take the time to stop being such a fucking tool who can't think for himself and give even one shred of effort -- rather worshipping the over-developed, impractical, disgusting physiques of IFBB drugged-up pros and arguing with someone who gives you genuine, science-based advice -- and read maybe just a little bit about the human anatonomy, you would learn this for yourself.

Your assisting muscles will grow with compound movements. If you don't believe me then go fuck yourself with an inverted, barbed wire cross.

Also, I actually do look in the mirror. I agree with gbtmed that it's silly, but I'm interested in bodybuilding. However, that's enough for me. I'm also interested in strength and power; I'm only partially a bodybuilder.

I don't take pictures because I don't have a camera. If I did have pics I wouldn't post them because what do I have to prove to you? You came to this board looking for advice, you got great advice, then shot it down. You're an idiot.

Originally Posted by johnson 45

Guys put some pics up, I would like to see your massive arms that have grown 2inches after not working them directly.

Buddy come on, so your saying that the pros are only that way because of juice? And your the One who really knows how train?

Just your little comment at the bottom

You can't win an argument against someone who's retarded. proves that its your way or no way, so you can have it Dude I'm done with this thread.

Happy training Guys.....

Ironically, this only reaffirms my signature.

Ok your right Dude

Originally Posted by johnson 45

I thought we where done with this thread,Dude look at my pic and then look at yourself LOL! Dude the body is the body and what worked in Arnold and Frankos time does work now,its Guys like you who cant handle the workouts who try to come up with new workouts,more efficient workouts is what you call them LOL.

The Guys who really look great train proper,the Guys who look like shit and walk around thinking they know it all with their arms out to the side and chest puffed out,they do your workout.

Why do you have the pics of the bodybuilders up? Do you think they train like you? Obviously you dont think its gross,obviously you want to look like that but you cant. You should put your own pic on. Be like the 300 pound Guy giving weight loss advise LOL.

And I dident shoot down your advise,I might not agree but I dident shoot it down. Just cause somebody doesent agree with you dosent mean you have to be rude about it.


Its clear by your little comment at the bottom of all your posts that you are very confrontational or you would not have something so negitive like that,but your going to have to do it with somebody else cause I'm done with you.

My pic is to contrast classic bodybuilding with modern bodybuilding -- which I'm not a fan of.

Arnold trained very inefficiently. That's well documented amongst the bodybuilding community. I'm still a big fan of him because he still had a great physique. I didn't say isolation won't yield results; it's just not the best way.

Like I said, you don't have to agree with what we tell you. You asked for the advice and we gave it. In the end you will act according to your own prerogative. But in the future, don't attack people for doing exactly what you ask of them.

Okay i'll bite:







I'm far right.

Now, i'm not a bodybuilder, but from the mass and proportions i've built up through smart, science-based training, i see no reason why i couldn't be if i wanted to. Which in turn shows to me that all that extra isolation stuff (which i havent done in years) is completely un-necessary at best, and counter-productive at worse.

I do not train arms more than four sets a week. Often i go months without doing any sort of curl.

I do not isolate delts, yet from these photos i think its fairly clear that all three heads are well developed.

I'm not even specifically training or eating for size.



Nobody here is offended, so don't you be. Don't confuse our attitude towards your opinions as our attitude against you. Theres a lot to be said for training experience and knowledge, but it's not the be all and end all, and things have moved on from the traditional way of training since Pumping Iron. The number of hardgainers is going down because people are finally starting to break away from these principles. At least people i come into contact with, anyway.

done