Thread: Replacing rows with pull-ups

Do you really need to remove rowing completely?

From the perspective of purist weightlifting and general functionality of a program, I think it is important to train the basic rowing movement. Your pulling muscles have the capability to pull from many different angles, and you should train those angles. This doesn't mean you have to train across the pulling spectrum degree by degree from vertical to horizontal, but you should get the basic movements in there.

Are you doing any horizontal pressing? If so, this is reason enough to do horizontal pulling. Train your antagonistic angles.

Maybe you could remove rowing for a short period so you can prioritize your pull ups, but removing rowing completely makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by brk_nemesis

OMG... those racks are horrendous.

Hes way too high, and hes bouncing? ha! thats pretty bad,.. good post.

Yup deads are my dominant back lift, but i also believe like others on here to work back vertically and horizontally. Pullups and lat pulls are good stuff, but i have always felt the best back pumps after BB rows standing on a bench arnold style.

a perfect example of a weight trainer that substitutes weight for form...people that train like this generally lack the muscles that "should" come with moving heavy training loads when the diet is sound.

Originally Posted by Phineas

I'm probably the only person on the board who considers bent-over rows superior to pullups.

Not the only one.

Originally Posted by ectomorph141

^ I agree if you are doing deadlifts please do NOT bounce the weight. Lower it slowly to the floor then lift heavy on the way up. Always control it. VERY important.
I posted a video a while back on how NOT to do a deadlift. Well actually it was a rack pull but some idiot was just bouncing the heck out of the weights. This is how NOT to do rack pulls or deadlifts.
how not to 405 rack pulls video by tylercarlson89 - Photobucket

Depends. If you are not on a platform with bumper plates, I agree. But any decent powerlifting gym is set up for deadlifters lowering the weight hard. If you are pulling 700+ pounds, how you lower the weight is not at issue. It is all about the pulling. If someone is deadlifting with any amount of weight, you will hear it when it comes down. The weight does need to be still and stationary when you begin the lift.

Yeah, if you're training to be good at deadlifting, you don't care about the descent.

Originally Posted by fufu

Do you really need to remove rowing completely?

From the perspective of purist weightlifting and general functionality of a program, I think it is important to train the basic rowing movement. Your pulling muscles have the capability to pull from many different angles, and you should train those angles. This doesn't mean you have to train across the pulling spectrum degree by degree from vertical to horizontal, but you should get the basic movements in there.

Are you doing any horizontal pressing? If so, this is reason enough to do horizontal pulling. Train your antagonistic angles.

Maybe you could remove rowing for a short period so you can prioritize your pull ups, but removing rowing completely makes no sense to me.

It was likey going to be a short term experiment, maybe 3 months. I like pull-ups more than rows, but that I still like rows and will no doubt start to miss them.

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

It was likey going to be a short term experiment, maybe 3 months. I like pull-ups more than rows, but that I still like rows and will no doubt start to miss them.

What were you hoping to examine through the experiment?

Originally Posted by assassin

Pull ups and Dips are the most important compound exercises ever in my opinion...if your bw is not heavy enough for you, add weights while doing them ....

I already add weight, and I do three variations of grip (overhand, underhand, neutral) It's not that i'm not doing enough for the first session. My back is generally still a little sore on my row days. I just like pull-ups better than rows.

Originally Posted by fufu

What were you hoping to examine through the experiment?

I guess extra progression on the pull-ups and to see if I could notice any sort of imbalance. I mean if you replaced your horizontal press with a vertical you surely would notice the difference. The pulls however aren't as cut and dry as to what you would be lacking, if anything.

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

It was likey going to be a short term experiment, maybe 3 months. I like pull-ups more than rows, but that I still like rows and will no doubt start to miss them.

You like pull ups more than rows? You should probably do more rowing.

Why not add more density to your pull ups the day you do them. Do them weighted or double up the volume.

Don't cut rows completely. Too valuable of an exercise.

Originally Posted by LAM

a perfect example of a weight trainer that substitutes weight for form...people that train like this generally lack the muscles that "should" come with moving heavy training loads when the diet is sound.

yea.... reminds me of this older black guy i knew at my old gym. Nice guy, but thought he was the king shit. Guy had some decent mass on him, but you could tell it was more than likely due to his genetics and not due to the unbelievably stupid lifts he did.

Perfect example is when i came in to do floor deads and some racks and he was on the rack. Guy had 6 plates on each side (his version of rack deads) but the support bars were locked in around waistlevel. Guy would do a 4 inch pull, then "see-saw" out the rest of the reps. Guy looked like a whale giving birth.

In addition, he stated at other times that squats were dangerous, leg presses are better, floor deads are bad for your back, and leg extensions were mass builders.

I just nodded and walked away lol

the mechanics of the bent over row and pull up are not even close to being the same even though they are both compound exercises. one could argue that the pull-up is not a true closed chain exercise as the rate of progression in terms of being able to increase the load on the muscles is much more in line with isolation exercises vs compound exercises

Originally Posted by LAM

the mechanics of the bent over row and pull up are not even close to being the same even though they are both compound exercises. one could argue that the pull-up is not a true closed chain exercise as the rate of progression in terms of being able to increase the load on the muscles is much more in line with isolation exercises vs compound exercises

The "rate progression of being able to increase the load" on exercises like military press, snatches, and overhead squats is slow too. That doesn't make them more in line with isolation exercises - it just makes them difficult.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

The "rate progression of being able to increase the load" on exercises like military press, snatches, and overhead squats is slow too. That doesn't make them more in line with isolation exercises - it just makes them difficult.

or less effective depending on the goals of the user. just because an exercise is harder does not mean it's positive effects on the various systems of the body are greater.

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

I guess extra progression on the pull-ups and to see if I could notice any sort of imbalance. I mean if you replaced your horizontal press with a vertical you surely would notice the difference. The pulls however aren't as cut and dry as to what you would be lacking, if anything.

The pulls are cut and dry too I think. I think you notice the rows more in your rear delts and upper back musculature and you'll notice pull ups in your lats obviously.

I just think that if you're doing any form of horizontal pressing, you really need to do the horizontal pulling more so than the vertical pulling. For instance, I notice some routines that would call for a bench press movement and then a pullup movement, reason being they call the pull up a more valuable compound exercise, but I think you would eventually definitely see an imbalance in your shoulders and upper back in time.

Originally Posted by LAM

or less effective depending on the goals of the user. just because an exercise is harder does not mean it's positive effects on the various systems of the body are greater.

No, but now you're just shifting the goalposts.

Slow progress on a lift doesn't make it closely resemble an isolation exercise. Pullups are nothing close to an isolation exercise in terms of muscle recruitment.

Now I'm not saying pullups are more effective than rows. I think both serve their purpose well.

Originally Posted by Stewart14

The pulls are cut and dry too I think. I think you notice the rows more in your rear delts and upper back musculature and you'll notice pull ups in your lats obviously.

I just think that if you're doing any form of horizontal pressing, you really need to do the horizontal pulling more so than the vertical pulling. For instance, I notice some routines that would call for a bench press movement and then a pullup movement, reason being they call the pull up a more valuable compound exercise, but I think you would eventually definitely see an imbalance in your shoulders and upper back in time.

I was thinking the upperback/traps as well, that's why I was going to add the cleans. I would disagee about the rear delts. Thanks for the input.

anybody got a idea of how to get 1 pullup out if u weigh 290 but i can row good and pulldowns alot but i used to be able to do 1-2 pullups but now at this weight i cant do one so i no muscle is ready to be built on that exercise, anything i can do to get at least 5 out.? like someone said awhile back to do negatives will that still apply? thnx not hogging the thread just one answer from someone expierenced , theres alot of guys on here that no there shit so?

Originally Posted by MDR

Depends. If you are not on a platform with bumper plates, I agree. But any decent powerlifting gym is set up for deadlifters lowering the weight hard. If you are pulling 700+ pounds, how you lower the weight is not at issue. It is all about the pulling. If someone is deadlifting with any amount of weight, you will hear it when it comes down. The weight does need to be still and stationary when you begin the lift.

Agreed. Powerlifting trainees do not care much about the descent, nor should they.

Originally Posted by rockhardly

Agreed. Powerlifting trainees do not care much about the descent, nor should they.

PL is all about moving the bar/load from Point A > B using the optimum form and bar speed. bodybuilders need to focus on the eccentric(lowering) portion of the lift as this is what causes micro-trauma to skeletal muscle while the majority of energy expenditure during resistance training occurs on the concentric portion of the lift.

Originally Posted by LAM

PL is all about moving the bar/load from Point A > B using the optimum form and bar speed. bodybuilders need to focus on the eccentric(lowering) portion of the lift as this is what causes micro-trauma to skeletal muscle while the majority of energy expenditure during resistance training occurs on the concentric portion of the lift.

Doesn't the concentric part of the lift cause micro trauma as well?

I agree that bodybuilders should focus on both raising and lowering the weight.

Although powerlifters do have to pay some attention to the lowering portion of the lift. You're not allowed to just drop the barbell from the lockout position or your lift will be disqualified. So while a powerlifter isn't required to lower the barbell slowly, he still needs the grip strength to bring it to the ground without letting the weight leave his hands.

Originally Posted by unclem

anybody got a idea of how to get 1 pullup out if u weigh 290 but i can row good and pulldowns alot but i used to be able to do 1-2 pullups but now at this weight i cant do one so i no muscle is ready to be built on that exercise, anything i can do to get at least 5 out.? like someone said awhile back to do negatives will that still apply? thnx not hogging the thread just one answer from someone expierenced , theres alot of guys on here that no there shit so?

Seriously, you can't do one, weigh 290 and inject massively? What % body fat?

This makes me wonder what P & P is doing for pull ups? 1 maybe 2 with no added weight. I'm like... Why do I even bother with the training forum? I don't mind trying to help but... these people that claim to know their shit burn me out.

Originally Posted by Hoglander

Seriously, you can't do one, weigh 290 and inject massively? What % body fat?

This makes me wonder what P & P is doing for pull ups? 1 maybe 2 with no added weight. I'm like... Why do I even bother with the training forum? I don't mind trying to help but... these people that claim to know their shit burn me out.

I knew you couldn't resist being a dick I usually do 6x5 (spread evenly among grips) with 60lbs added. What does your old ass do?

Originally Posted by PushAndPull

I knew you couldn't resist being a dick I usually do 6x5 (spread evenly among grips) with 60lbs added. What does your old ass do?

Ignore

Do some rows and stop being such a puss

Originally Posted by HeavyBomber

Not the only one.

Totally different excercises working different muscles to different degrees. Doesn't make sense to compare them.

Another reason why I too split back into horizontal and vertical pull.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

Doesn't the concentric part of the lift cause micro trauma as well?

it does but just about every study shows that eccentric contractions are optimum for hypertrophy. see Colliander and Tesch 1990; O’Hagan et al. 1995a; Higbie et al. 1996; Hortoba´ gyi et al. 1996b; Seger et al. 1998

most studies also show it is optimum for increasing strengthl. force production is the determining factor for increasing both muscle and strength. with the concentric contraction force output decreases with increasing contraction velocity. the exact opposite occurs with eccentric contractions see Wickiewicz et al. 1984; Sale et al. 1987; Hortoba´ gyi and Katch 1990a; Westing et al. 1990, 1991