Thread: Box Squats...

I don't think he's using a box that's higher than his depth. I think he's using one that's LOWER than his depth.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

I don't think many lifters who are serious about their training ever use a box that's higher than depth. If they can't get the weight to depth, they use a lighter weight...

What you're saying sounds fine but doesn't really work in reality. If you train to comfort at one depth with that weight, as soon as you try to squat to a lower depth you're going to have problems with timing, balance, etc.

Some really strong power lifters frequently use high box squats that are well above legal depth.

Yes, high box squats can make your deep squats feel awkward, but it isn't black and white. You have to look at the whole program.

You have to look at how frequently they are doing box squats, why they using the box squat and what else are they doing squat-wise.

Originally Posted by Built

I don't think he's using a box that's higher than his depth. I think he's using one that's LOWER than his depth.

I'm not talking about his depth - I'm talking about legal depth.

And Fu, IIRC Louie and his guys always advocate squatting on a box that's either at parallel or below parallel. In reading a lot of his articles I don't recall any of the Westside guys ever mentioning high box squats.

Maybe it would work as a training method but to me it seems pointless as most of the time the sticking point is in the hole...

I give up. I don't know what you're arguing, gtbmed and you don't understand my point.

Don't worry - I still think you're pretty.

Originally Posted by Built

I don't think he's getting an ass-ton of momentum from his feeties in comparison to the load.

Yes but wow....wouldn't this be detrimental, at least very potentially for the back. this means the spine is supporting the weight for a split second with no leg support really. Just not in my risk:reward portfolio....

and lol at feeties

Originally Posted by Built

I give up. I don't know what you're arguing, gtbmed and you don't understand my point.

Don't worry - I still think you're pretty.

I'm fairly certain that your point is that he's trying to work himself down to a reasonable depth with a given weight. If my assumption is incorrect then that's the source of our impasse.

My point is that trying to work yourself down to depth is stupid. If you want to learn a reasonable squat depth, squat to that depth with a reasonable weight. I think that trying to gradually lower the box you're squatting on in order to achieve depth is just going to cause problems. For one, certain muscles are going to be developed quickly and others may lack development needed to squat deep. Also, you're not going to know your flexibility limitations until you get to a certain depth.

IIRC Louie Simmons has his guys doing box squats twice a week in most training weeks and I believe they always use a box that's at least as low as parallel (hip crease even with the knee).

But my original point remains - if you're not a geared powerlifter, why are you doing box squats? The entire point is to sit back onto the box just like you would sit back into your gear. If you don't use a suit, squatting that way is going to be tough on your hips. That's just my opinion.

I'm a big believer in the SAID principle. In doing box squats you are going to strengthen hip extension from a certain position. You have to ask yourself how often (in your sport or in your training) do you get into such a position and how necessary is it to develop strength from that body position? For geared powerlifters who are squatting like this in competitions it's crucial to develop that kind of strength. For others it's questionable IMO.

Plus, you're limiting the range of motion. If you want muscular development, squatting through a larger range of motion is going to be superior to squatting through a smaller range of motion.

Sorry for that novel of a post.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

I'm fairly certain that your point is that he's trying to work himself down to a reasonable depth with a given weight. If my assumption is incorrect then that's the source of our impasse.

My point is that trying to work yourself down to depth is stupid. If you want to learn a reasonable squat depth, squat to that depth with a reasonable weight. I think that trying to gradually lower the box you're squatting on in order to achieve depth is just going to cause problems. For one, certain muscles are going to be developed quickly and others may lack development needed to squat deep. Also, you're not going to know your flexibility limitations until you get to a certain depth.

IIRC Louie Simmons has his guys doing box squats twice a week in most training weeks and I believe they always use a box that's at least as low as parallel (hip crease even with the knee).

But my original point remains - if you're not a geared powerlifter, why are you doing box squats? The entire point is to sit back onto the box just like you would sit back into your gear. If you don't use a suit, squatting that way is going to be tough on your hips. That's just my opinion.

I'm a big believer in the SAID principle. In doing box squats you are going to strengthen hip extension from a certain position. You have to ask yourself how often (in your sport or in your training) do you get into such a position and how necessary is it to develop strength from that body position? For geared powerlifters who are squatting like this in competitions it's crucial to develop that kind of strength. For others it's questionable IMO.

Plus, you're limiting the range of motion. If you want muscular development, squatting through a larger range of motion is going to be superior to squatting through a smaller range of motion.

Sorry for that novel of a post.

Yah, but in what sport are you in the upright position that you are in for oly-style squats? For hockey and other sports like football you are always leaning forward, that is the power position.

In hockey you are in more of a lunge positon than anything. Bottom line is the low-bar squat devolopes the most strength and power for the hips which is crucial for hitting and being a faster skater.

Originally Posted by cshea2

Yah, but in what sport are you in the upright position that you are in for oly-style squats? For hockey and other sports like football you are always leaning forward, that is the power position.

In hockey you are in more of a lunge positon than anything. Bottom line is the low-bar squat devolopes the most strength and power for the hips which is crucial for hitting and being a faster skater.

A low bar squat and a box squat are two entirely different things.

In a box squat a lot of powerlifters say that the angle the shin makes with the floor should be 90 degrees or greater. You are purposely using the box and/or the gear to do something that isn't possible without such equipment.



Look at the position of the bar. It's actually behind her heels. The load is not even over her foot. This isn't possible without the box and/or suit. It's not a position you get in during any sport because it's an unbalanced position. The body's center of gravity is not aligned over the feet.

This isn't a discussion about the differences between low-bar and high-bar squatting, it's a discussion about the differences between box squats and free squats. In any discussion of the former I would always recommend that you do whatever type of squat more closely resembles the position you get in most often when you play your sport.

BTW, for some hockey players I would perform low-bar squats and for others I would perform high-bar squats or front squats. Particularly defensemen are often skating with a very upright posture and it helps to develop a strong base from there.

All I am saying is for most sports you are in the bent over position more, and the box squat helps you develop strength and power out of the hole which has amazing carryover to a free squat.

It has helped my squat gains more so than anything else, so it confuses me why your so quick to dismiss it as being 'just for geared powerlifters.'

Originally Posted by Merkaba

and lol at feeties

LOL!

Originally Posted by gtbmed

I'm fairly certain that your point is that he's trying to work himself down to a reasonable depth with a given weight. If my assumption is incorrect then that's the source of our impasse.

Nope, you got it.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

My point is that trying to work yourself down to depth is stupid.

Ah. This was the source of the impasse - I didn't realize that was your point.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

If you want to learn a reasonable squat depth, squat to that depth with a reasonable weight. I think that trying to gradually lower the box you're squatting on in order to achieve depth is just going to cause problems. For one, certain muscles are going to be developed quickly and others may lack development needed to squat deep. Also, you're not going to know your flexibility limitations until you get to a certain depth.

Hmmm… I see your point here, really I do. I also know that the movement can feel very different under only a slightly greater load. I squat deep. I try very hard to squat well. But I've really had to fight to do so - I've employed box squats, split squats, back squats, front squats, low and highbar squats, one-and-a-halfs, Anderson squats, Zerchers, single-leg pistol squats, Bulgarian split squats, walking lunges, goblet squats and single-leg-press in my mission to master the squat. I've watched form videos and trained with powerlifters.

I'll admit I'm not doing box squats with four plates a side, but I have managed, over this time, to get up to 185 for 5-rep sets and to 205 for an occasional triple - but I don't get down as deep for 205 as I do for a plate a side, because the movement seems to feel different at a neural level. I had thought - perhaps erroneously - that using something like a box squat to train this neural component could be helpful. I'm always open to suggestions from those who know more than I do. I just read a lot. I don't coach, and I have no formal training in exercise physiology. I had not considered this angle, and I appreciate your well-thought out post.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

But my original point remains - if you're not a geared powerlifter, why are you doing box squats? The entire point is to sit back onto the box just like you would sit back into your gear. If you don't use a suit, squatting that way is going to be tough on your hips. That's just my opinion.

and I'm sure it's a good opinion to have. I've not noticed hip problems from my experiments with box squats, but again, I'm not *quite* squatting my car.

Originally Posted by gtbmed

I'm a big believer in the SAID principle. In doing box squats you are going to strengthen hip extension from a certain position. You have to ask yourself how often (in your sport or in your training) do you get into such a position and how necessary is it to develop strength from that body position? For geared powerlifters who are squatting like this in competitions it's crucial to develop that kind of strength. For others it's questionable IMO.
Plus, you're limiting the range of motion. If you want muscular development, squatting through a larger range of motion is going to be superior to squatting through a smaller range of motion.
Sorry for that novel of a post.

Originally Posted by cshea2

All I am saying is for most sports you are in the bent over position more, and the box squat helps you develop strength and power out of the hole which has amazing carryover to a free squat.
It has helped my squat gains more so than anything else, so it confuses me why your so quick to dismiss it as being 'just for geared powerlifters.'

See, I thought I found them helpful for this purpose, myself. Maybe there's a better way. Gtbmed - what would you suggest as an alternative to the problems cshea and I have mentioned? As a reminder, squatting has NOT been a natural fit for me. I worked like hell to get myself to a decent squat.

As an aside, I find I remain more upright with low-bar squats than with the high-bar position. I have NO idea why this is, but there you have it. I did front squats exclusively for three years to fix my squat form. I tended to good-morning it out of the hole. Now I don't. I've read of other women finding fronts work better than back squats - perhaps it's a hip-angle thing?

You probably have a flexibility issue Built, I'm not going to lie. Flexibility is a huge issue in squatting deep while keeping an upright torso - most people just don't have the ankle or hamstring flexibility to do it so they tend to fall forward. Ankle flexibility is a big issue even for people who work on their flexibility because it's often neglected.

And if this is the case, it's no surprise that you remain more upright during low-bar squats. If you're squatting with a high bar placement the lever-arm is going to be longer and, thus, it's going to be tougher to stay upright.

I see this happen with front squats all the time - people's elbows tend to drop, their torso lowers, and they tend to fall forward, sometimes even stepping forward to keep their balance. In the end this is a flexibility issue, but I've found that focusing on keeping my elbows as high as possible (the cue I use for my own training is "elbows towards the ceiling") will lead to an upright torso and a balanced squat with no problems losing the weight forward.

cshea:

In all sports you're going to use your hips and ankles to bend. Box squats are fine but there's not going to be any good to come out of developing strength from the bottom position of a box squat. It's just not a position you will ever encounter in any sport unless you are falling backward. You are confusing a bent-over position with the position involved in box squatting. They are entirely different if you look at pictures.

Look at the angles the shin and hip makes with the torso here:



Now tell me how the shin, hip, and torso relationship here is remotely the same:



The reason I dismiss it as being for geared powerlifters has already been given - strength is specific to positioning. Geared powerlifters find themselves in this position often. Athletes do not. Raw lifters do not. You are working on strength from a position that you will never encounter in your sport. Not only that, but you are working on a position that powerlifters specifically use gear to support and you are a raw lifter.

Every athlete wants to develop hip extension - it's crucial to about every sport. The key is to find the right positions and use your training to strengthen only those. You don't see olympic weightlifters performing low bar box squats yet their sport involves some of the most explosive hip extension you will ever see. The reason for this is simple - they're never in that position in their sport, so why should they train it? There are so many ways to develop hip extension it's not even worth it to list them.

You know what has the best carryover to a free squat? It's free squatting.

Don't hold back - tell us what you REALLY think.

Seriously, thanks for this. Regarding front squats, I did them because I didn't fall forward when I did them. I keep my elbows high and I do just fine - I only stopped because I had trouble with a few upper ribs that kept going out of alignment. I got to a point where I had to get an adjustment every time I front-squatted. I still do them, but only with 95 lbs. I still feel I get better power transfer through my quads when I do 'em. I feel the force vector going right through my heels, where it's supposed to, when I do fronts. Back squats are my bread and butter now, but they never feel as good as fronts did.

How would I know if I had a hip flexibility problem?

Built, usually a feeling of weakness or instability at the bottom is a pretty good sign that you have hamstring flexibility problems, especially if you are going deep. Squat down to the bottom and try to maintain an upright torso - if you feel your weight shifting to the front of your foot then you probably have a hamstring flexibility issue.

One thing I did that really helped with squat specific flexibility was overhead squatting. I just made it part of my warmup but it really, really loosens the hamstrings and hips for squatting. It also forces you to sit down into the hole and to stay upright as you do so.

Another thing is upper body tightness - when you squat with a high bar placement, you want your grip to be as narrow as possible. This helps keep the entire back tight.