Thread: amt of time off before muscle loss

Congrats for the new member of the family!!!
As for the rest i have no idea...

Yes, congrats on that new baby blu, I think if you keep eating right, you shouldn't see any real significant difference in size, the break will do you some good and I think the biggest thing you'll probably notice is how sore you'll be the first week when you do come back.

Actually ive read and correct me if im wrong here people ....Newly developed muscle begins to detiriorate after 72 hours of last workout.....am i wrong??

Congrats!

Everyone "De-trains" at THEIR own rate....the good news, MUSCLE MEMORY....you get it back 3 times faster than someone who has never trained!


DP

What the heck is "muscle memory?" I really despise that term.

You'll probably see a decrease after 10 days. All be it a very small loss.

I took a 9 day layoff 2 weeks ago. Ever since I've returned, I've made new personal records every session on every exercise. Some machines are maxed out know. Time to look for a different gym, y'think?

P.S. Congrats Bludevil!

Originally posted by Training God
What the heck is "muscle memory?" I really despise that term.

the best way to describe this phenomenon is the baloon analogy.

the first time you blow up a baloon it's hard, but if you then deflate it and blow it up again it expands much easier. The same is true with muscle & fat cells, once they have been "inflated" it's that much easier to "re-inflate" them

I can already imagine the type of "scientific" crap you're gonna post Maki, but if nothing else I can attest to the validity of this phenomenon personally.

I just hate the term. I think it's so misleading. Muscles do not own a memory.

true, but you're taking the term "memory" too literally.

it's feasible to say that something can have the ability or capacity to return to or retain it's shape, that falls under the definition of memory as well.

Originally posted by Prince
it's feasible to say that something can have the ability or capacity to return to or retain it's shape, that falls under the definition of memory as well.

*** Memory: the ability to remember information, experiences and people

Remember: to be able to bring back (a piece of information) into your mind, or to keep (a piece of information) in your memory

Return: to come or go back to a previous place, subject, activity or condition

Retain: to keep or continue to have (something)


No it's not.

I am being technical because this term is very misleading.
"Mucle memory" has to do with contractile proteins (specific ones) that spring into play after a certain amount of deconditioning time.

Originally posted by Training God
I am being technical because this term is very misleading.
"Mucle memory" has to do with contractile proteins (specific ones) that spring into play after a certain amount of deconditioning time.

It's only misleading to someone who is new or unaccustomed to certain lingo used in bodybuilding and/or weighttraining.

People in "this" community, as well as the scientific/physics fields refer to it as Prince explains.

Your argument is relative to someone coming to a hockey game, and suggesting that they not use the term icing as a legitimate rule, as icing in the non-interested world means, "a sugary substance used to decorate sweets".

Cheers.

Originally posted by animal56


It's only misleading to someone who is new or unaccustomed to certain lingo used in bodybuilding and/or weighttraining.

People in "this" community, as well as the scientific/physics fields refer to it as Prince explains.

Your argument is relative to someone coming to a hockey game, and suggesting that they not use the term icing as a legitimate rule, as icing in the non-interested world means, "a sugary substance used to decorate sweets".

Cheers.

*** Just because a term is widely accepted does not mean it is correct. The same could be said with the term "contraction" when

Originally posted by animal56


It's only misleading to someone who is new or unaccustomed to certain lingo used in bodybuilding and/or weighttraining.

People in "this" community, as well as the scientific/physics fields refer to it as Prince explains.

Your argument is relative to someone coming to a hockey game, and suggesting that they not use the term icing as a legitimate rule, as icing in the non-interested world means, "a sugary substance used to decorate sweets".

Cheers.

*** Just because a term is widely accepted does not mean it is correct. The same could be said with the term "contraction" when referring to concentrics, eccentrics and isometrics. A proper term for them would be "action" not contraction.

Cheers.

Jesus christ am I the only one having flash backs to old battle axe hag english teachers screaming....... scary

Thanks for all the congrats guys, and also for the reply's.
I've been doing 200 pushups and situps every other day just to try and stay in decent shape until I start the weights again (hopefully in 2 weeks). After a 3 week break doing 200 pushups made me pretty sore.

Originally posted by Training God


*** Memory: the ability to remember information, experiences and people

Remember: to be able to bring back (a piece of information) into your mind, or to keep (a piece of information) in your memory

Return: to come or go back to a previous place, subject, activity or condition

Retain: to keep or continue to have (something)


No it's not.

I am being technical because this term is very misleading.
"Mucle memory" has to do with contractile proteins (specific ones) that spring into play after a certain amount of deconditioning time.

you forgot one definition slick:

mem·o·ry
The capacity of a material, such as plastic or metal, to return to a previous shape after deformation.

Originally posted by Prince


the best way to describe this phenomenon is the baloon analogy.

the first time you blow up a baloon it's hard, but if you then deflate it and blow it up again it expands much easier. The same is true with muscle & fat cells, once they have been "inflated" it's that much easier to "re-inflate" them

I can already imagine the type of "scientific" crap you're gonna post Maki, but if nothing else I can attest to the validity of this phenomenon personally.

woo very good analogy

i think thats the best way to put it

Originally posted by Prince



you forgot one definition slick:

mem·o·ry
The capacity of a material, such as plastic or metal, to return to a previous shape after deformation.

*** Where did you find that definition?
I have found no such definition and would be interested what the source was?

Here is a medical definition of "memory."

memory
Complex mental function having four distinct phases: (1) memorizing or learning, (2) retention, (3) recall, and (4) recognition. Clinically, it is usually subdivided into immediate, recent, and remote memory.

You are aware that what most people refer to as muscle memory has to do with "motor learning" right?

Many times people get these two mixed up.

oh, well if that's the "medical" definition it must be the only one, and the correct one.

I am not sure of your heritage or first language, maybe it's not English (I say that because I believe you're Asian). But in the English language the definition of words is a constant changing and evolving thing. New words and definitions are added to the "major" dictionary's every year.

Perhaps you're looking at an outdated source.

There is also Memory Metal, it is metal when heated will return to a shape that it was originally, so yes some of you are taking this to mean it implies it has a brain of its own, science may not always name things in a way that makes everyone happy but thats how it is.

So far as I know Jeff you are correct, what I've seen is that after 3 days in most people atrophy begins. I am on a 4 on 1 off and if I go any longer than that I start to lose muscle, and I lose QUICKLY. I last week took 2 days 'off' from watching my protein intake, I probably got down to 200-240, and didn't work out for those 2 days, and lost 1/4" on my arms. This may sound ridiculous to some of you but I lose muscle fast if I screw off, there is a certain amount that is easy for me to carry, but I've been beyond that point for awhile now.

I have from my own experiences believed in shorter gym visits but more frequent, I cannot do a 7 day program successfully at least at this point. I am starting to believe though (as some have said) that when you start lifting heavier weights you need more time off. Otherwise I would perhaps still be on a 3 on 1 off program, which is a bit harder for me to keep up with.

Very short course: WTF........empirically look at athletes returning to "condition" after detraining. This is especially evident to almost every athlete who has ever taken a break. Muscle memory is and was not spoken as scientific jargon, it's real, it happens, (most of us have personal experience with it) and it's just two words that we use to explain it, like......."Muscle Mass"


Short Couse:

"Muscle Memory"

A Theoretical Concept Based on Athletes' Reports



It has been theorized that multi-nucleation might explain the longstanding anecdotal phenomenon most athletes call "muscle memory".

Muscle memory is recognized when someone who has had substantial muscular mass and then lost it due to injury or layoffs from training, returns to training and regains the majority of the mass in a much shorter time than was initially required to develop it.

What could be happening is that the specific muscle proteins in the muscle were cannibalized by the body for energy production during non-use. The muscle, however, retains a higher than average number of nuclei that the previous exercise stress caused the body to create.

When presented with exercise and proper nutrients, new protein synthesis can occur at an accelerated rate.


Medium Course:



MUSCLE MEMORY


by Paul Chek, MSS, HHP, NMT


Muscle memory, in my opinion is a neurophysiological function, which is activated by kinesthetic receptors in muscles and the joints they act upon. Many people have what are termed "muscle memories" while being Rolfed. Rolfing is a form of fascia manipulation, developed by Ida Rolf PhD. I have treated numerous trigger points in patients, which activated muscle memories. Patients often have dream-like flash backs and may even smell smells directly associated with an experience related to the muscle being worked on. For example, whip lash patients may smell smoke, or burning radiator fluid, a flashback from their accident.

Because the brain centers, endocrine system and proprioceptor/nociceptor systems are all linked in a cybernetic system, there are numerous possible explanations. I recall reading "Manual Medicine Diagnostics" by Dvorak and Dvorak, in which they spoke of EMG responses to a tug on the C4 joint capsule with surgical tweezers. Interestingly, there was EMG activity in many muscles from the neck and shoulders all the way to the hamstrings. I bring this point up because many muscles, such as the lumbar and cervical multifidus insert directly into facet joint capsules. Joint capsules are highly inervated with Type I,II,III and IV receptors, and others (this work was pionered by Barry Wike).

The communication between joint proprioceptors, spindle cells and other related sensory end organs all create the information necessary to develop motor engrams. These engrams are the coded patterns from which movements are tied together to create a complex movement. For example, have you ever noticed how you can get into your car at night and put the key right in the ignition, yet not even see the key hole? Try driving someone else's car and you will see that you have not developed "MUSCLE MEMORY." The brain has recorded the exact length of spindle cells in all associated muscles, pattern of activation by joint capsule proprioceptors, intra-joint pressure receptors, sensory feedback from related skin contacts, etc.

Another means of validating my theory is the clinical experience of altering spindle cell and golgi tendon organ function, or even skin stimulation. I don't have time to be overly detailed here, but I have performed spindle cell compression techniques on athletes then muscle tested them, and every time they were weakened. This is well explained by George Goodheart, a world famous Kinesiologist. Additionally, if you perform deep pressure massage to an athlete's leg musculature before a running event, 90% will complain of feeling weak, and often uncoordinated. I am quite sure this is because deep pressure in muscle changes the length of the spindle cell, alters the information associated with developed motor engrams and requires comparitor functions in the brain to adjust for discrepencies in the movement pattern. In otherwords, manipulating proprioceptive input of one form or another alters muscle memory and decreases efficiency of movement..

Paul Chek, MSS, HHP, NMT


Longer Course:


http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/...cle-memory.htm


Muscle Memory: Scientists May Have Unwittingly Uncovered Its Mystery

By Bryan Haycock, MS

Anyone who has lifted weights, on and off, for several years is familiar with the concept of "muscle memory". Muscle memory in this context refers to the observation that when a person begins lifting weights after a prolonged lay off, it is much easier to return to their previous levels of size and strength than it was to get there the first time around. Even when significant atrophy (muscle shrinking) has taken place during the layoff, previously hypertrophied muscle returns to its previous size more quickly than usual.

A recent study looking at fiber type conversions during muscle hypertrophy may have uncovered a possible mechanism for this phenomenon. For those of you not crazy about scientific lingo bear with me. Towards the end you will see what I’m getting at with this study. In this study the distribution of myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoforms, fiber type composition, and fiber size of the vastus lateralis muscle were analyzed in a group of adult sedentary men before and after 3 months of resistance training and then again, after 3 months of detraining. Following the period of resistance training, MHC IIX content decreased from just over 9% to 2.0%, with a corresponding increase in MHC IIA (42% to 49%). Following detraining the amount of MHC IIX reached values that were higher than before and during resistance training, over 17%! As expected, significant hypertrophy was observed for the type II fibers after resistance training, and even remained larger than baseline after 3 months of detraining.

Myosin heavy chain isoforms, or MHCs, refer to the types of contractile protein you see in a given muscle fiber. MHCs determine how the muscle fiber functions. MHCs are what make a fiber "fast twitch", "slow twitch", or something in-between. Certain MHCs are known to undergo a change in response to resistance exercise. In this case, fibers that contain MHC IIX are fibers that aren’t really sure what kind of fiber they are until they are called to action. Once recruited, they become MHC IIAs. So, fibers containg MHC IIX proteins serve as a reservoir of sorts for muscle hypertrophy because the can transform themselves into fibers containing MHC IIX which grow easily in response to training.

Like any great study, these researchers found what they expected as well as a little extra that they didn’t. I think this study caught my attention because it showed a long-term alteration in skeletal muscle following resistance training. It has been this long-term change that has been the focus of my own training philosophy, which incorporates what I call "strategic deconditioning". This study showed that resistance training decreases the amount of MHC IIX while reciprocally increasing MHC IIA content. This was expected and has previously observed with changes in fiber type after resistance training. What they didn’t expect was that detraining following heavy-load resistance training seems to cause what they refer to as an "overshoot" or doubling in the percentage of MHC IIX isoforms, significantly higher than that measured at baseline. What does this mean? It could mean that there are more fibers available for hypertrophy (growth) after a lay off from training than there are before you start training. This could very well explain the "muscle memory" effect many of us have experienced ourselves. It may also have implications for natural bodybuilders looking to overcome long-standing plateaus.

There are a few questions that this study did not answer. For instance, they waited until 3 months after they stopped training before they took final measurements. It would have been nice if they had taken measurements regularly so that the optimal period of detraining could be identified corresponding to peak MHC IIX levels. Because it takes 3-4 weeks for these contractile muscle proteins to turn over, it would take longer than one month and probably less time than 6 months (previous research). Still the optimal time remains to be elucidated.

Also, how would these guys respond to the same training regimen after the detraining period? Would their quads grow to their previous trained size, or even further? How long would it take? These questions, if answered, may add a new twist to typical training regimens. It may very well be that extended breaks from training may actually allow greater growth over a 12-month period than if training is uninterrupted. For serious athletes and bodybuilders, this would be important information and could significantly extend their competitive careers.

Training God if that doesnt give you enough sources to agree or understand why we use the term "Muscle Memory" then we should all just agree to disagree now

Originally posted by Prince
I am not sure of your heritage or first language, maybe it's not English (I say that because I believe you're Asian). But in the English language the definition of words is a constant changing and evolving thing. New words and definitions are added to the "major" dictionary's every year.

So true. You should see the state of some of the words they've added in the past 5 or so years. Ridiculous really.

I would appreciate it if one of the mods would stop deleting my posts. I can not defend my stance if you do not allow me the chance to explain myself.

Just because some experts use the term does not mean that is what it should be called. Dr. Pain, if you had read my original post you would have seen that my quarrel was not with the idea but rather the term being used.

Originally posted by Mudge

So far as I know Jeff you are correct, what I've seen is that after 3 days in most people atrophy begins. I am on a 4 on 1 off and if I go any longer than that I start to lose muscle, and I lose QUICKLY. I last week took 2 days 'off' from watching my protein intake, I probably got down to 200-240, and didn't work out for those 2 days, and lost 1/4" on my arms. This may sound ridiculous to some of you but I lose muscle fast if I screw off, there is a certain amount that is easy for me to carry, but I've been beyond that point for awhile now.

*** I would beg to differ Mudge that in "most" people atrophy sets in after a couple days. Can you provide us with any phisiology, scientific results or emperical evidence that shows directly that it is actual muscle loss?
You do not lose muscle that quickly. Unless you are in an extreme catabolic state (and I do mean extreme). Just because you lose 1/4 of an inch of your arms doesn't mean it's muscle. Most times it's tissue swelling that has subsided. Just like a pump dissapears so does this "swelling."

Whoops, I meant to say 1/8".

Sorry, I am sure the data is online somewhere but I read it years ago, and have seen it stated in at least 2 places. As I believe I eluded to or mentioned, I am beginning to believe that as you work with heavier weights you need more days rest in between for safety, but I still am not using a 7 day program myself and don't know if I ever will.