Muscle Soreness

aurexie · 11-09-2002, 10:57 AM

ahem i am rather confused... i go to the gym for about a month now.. and i have found that my body gets tired become i can get the soreness ...

is it common ?? should i add more weights? but once i add weight i cannot lift it up my reps will go down ... what is this suppose to mean ? what is the best suggestion i should do inorder to get the sorness back ?

**Prince** · 11-09-2002, 11:49 AM

sounds like your body has adapted to your routine.

There are several things you can do:

change your routine, use different exercises, increase weight, add some techniques like super setting or forced reps.

also, you do not always have to get sore from a work-out, there can still be progress (hypertrophy) with out soreness.

**Mudge** · 11-09-2002, 12:08 PM

Almost the only times I ever get sore, are after coming off an extended layoff and overdoing it.

kidda9 · 11-09-2002, 12:14 PM

i rareley get very sore any moor used to wen very first started though!

Robboe · 11-09-2002, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
sounds like your body has adapted to your routine.

Little query: Do you actually know what muscular adaption is?

Robboe · 11-09-2002, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aurexie is it common ?? should i add more weights? but once i add weight i cannot lift it up my reps will go down ... what is this suppose to mean ? what is the best suggestion i should do inorder to get the sorness back ?

Use progressive overload.

Take a weight you can do 8 reps with.

The next week aim fo more reps.

Once you hit 12 reps with that weight, either up the weight slightly for your second set, or if you've done all your sets for the exercise, next week, up the weight.

Reps usually go down in accordance.

So you started with say, 200lbs for 8 reps and worked up to 12 reps.

You then up the weight to, say, 210lbs, and your reps go down to say, 8. Work the reps up again to 12 over time (i.e. several weeks, or maybe between sessions if you're a newer lifter or on AAS).

Repeat cycle so eventually, after a few months or a year, you'll have went from 200lbs @ 8 reps, to say, 300lbs at 8 reps. By then you'll have grown quite considerably providing adequate diet and not too much volume/frequency.

**Prince** · 11-09-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Little query: Do you actually know what muscular adaption is?

a term I have never heard... I think you mean muscular adaptation.

Robboe · 11-09-2002, 01:09 PM

Typo.

Answer el questionio.

**Prince** · 11-09-2002, 01:18 PM

it's basically what the term says: the body, e.g muscles, "adapt" to training either by muscles getting larger and/or stronger...there are different types of adaptation as well.

"Systematic training results in certain structural and physiological changes, or adaptations, in the body. The size and definition of the body's muscles indicate the level of adaptation. The magnitude of these adaptations is directly proportional to the demands placed upon the body by volume (quantity) of training, frequency of training and intensity (load) of training."

Periodization for building muscle power and mass
By Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia

Robboe · 11-09-2002, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
it's basically what the term says: the body, e.g muscles, "adapt" to training either by muscles getting larger and/or stronger...there are different types of adaptation as well.

"Systematic training results in certain structural and physiological changes, or adaptations, in the body. The size and definition of the body's muscles indicate the level of adaptation. The magnitude of these adaptations is directly proportional to the demands placed upon the body by volume (quantity) of training, frequency of training and intensity (load) of training."

Periodization for building muscle power and mass
By Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia

Correct.

Providing he's getting stronger and heavier (within reason), then he's growing.

Why would he want to change it around?

You made it sound like his routine is now fruitless and something needs to be changed.

Where was the option for keeping doing what he's doing?

**Prince** · 11-09-2002, 01:33 PM

yeah, I guess it sounded that way.

we really need more info to determine whether or not he needs to change anything. I was just suggesting some techinques to keep his body off balance.

by his post it sounded like he was going in and doing the same thing for the past month and is no longer seeing/feeling any results, hell it's possible that he's just over training

but I also said that soreness is not neceassary, many poeple judge the effectiveness of their work-outs by soreness.

Robboe · 11-09-2002, 01:41 PM

He's just equating soreness with growth.

Once he realises the correlation is thinner than it appears, he should be right.

Just as long as he's getting bigger and stronger.

Scotty the Body · 11-09-2002, 03:51 PM

My legs have hurt like hell for two days now, I must have done something right.

aurexie · 11-10-2002, 12:29 AM

ahem my rountine is 3 days a week in a gym gor estimate 1.5hrs each session.

monday arms and shoulder

wednesday chest and back

friday legs

saturday will have a judo session

Hmmpz... thanks ... that means i should increase my number of reps for lets say i am carrying 150lbs if i can manage to do it more then 12 that for 3 times means that it is time to add more weight till i am able to lift 8 reps for 3 times? till i can reach 12 reps??

Rissole · 11-10-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aurexie
ahem my rountine is 3 days a week in a gym gor estimate 1.5hrs each session.

monday arms and shoulder

wednesday chest and back

friday legs

saturday will have a judo session

Hmmpz... thanks ... that means i should increase my number of reps for lets say i am carrying 150lbs if i can manage to do it more then 12 that for 3 times means that it is time to add more weight till i am able to lift 8 reps for 3 times? till i can reach 12 reps??

Yes that is correct. Always take notes when your working out. You'll know exactly what you gotta do for each exercise so you can try and beat your last workout.
You dont have to do 3 sets on everything though, i do 3 on my overall exercise (like for chest is bench, legs-squat) then do 2 for my other 'targeting' type exercise ( flys, d/b decline whatever)

Trap-isaurus · 11-10-2002, 07:35 PM

I have a habit of always doing four sets

am I alone in this?

Robboe · 11-11-2002, 07:23 AM

Drug use supports higher volume.

If i was only doing one or two exercises, i may do 4 sets for each.

But for the most part, 2 sets is the norm, with 3 sets max on certain days if i fancy.

Twin Peak · 11-11-2002, 08:34 AM

I prefer three sets for most exercises.

Also, I agree with Rob 100% on progressively overloading the muscles, however, I prefer a 6-10 rep range rather than 8-12 for optimal musclar hypertrophy (for most people).

Further, I think Prince's idea of "switching it up" is a valuable tool; but not until one is much more advanced does it become remotely necessary.

Lastly, I don't think soreness is always necessary, but I still get very sore from ALMOST every good workout. I do think it is a positive indicator of future hypertrophy and a lack of soreness, IMO, is due to muscular adaptation and, likely, not training at or near failure. I am not saying you cannot grow without getting sore, I am saying that I do not believe you are growing optimally.

Freeman · 11-11-2002, 10:07 AM

So, to get stronger, do heavier weights, lesser reps..right? I've been using the 8-12 rep range...slowly getting stronger, although I'm still a weakling compared to most of you guys! bastards! I'll catch you some day!

Also, I usually have to do smith-machine bench or hammer strength b/c I don't have a lift partner..this could be affecting my progress..a good lift partner can motivate you to do more, and I miss those good ol' days of lifting in high school with my buds.

Robboe · 11-11-2002, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
I prefer three sets for most exercises.

Also, I agree with Rob 100% on progressively overloading the muscles, however, I prefer a 6-10 rep range rather than 8-12 for optimal musclar hypertrophy (for most people).

Well i just used 8-12 as an example.

I personally use 4-6 for the first set (or first two sets) and then 8-12 for the second.

Quote:

Lastly, I don't think soreness is always necessary, but I still get very sore from ALMOST every good workout. I do think it is a positive indicator of future hypertrophy and a lack of soreness, IMO, is due to muscular adaptation and, likely, not training at or near failure. I am not saying you cannot grow without getting sore, I am saying that I do not believe you are growing optimally.

If i went into the gym and did 40 sets for every bodypart for the next 20 weeks, i'd be sore as hell. Would i be growing optimally?

Obviously this isn't the best example, since 20 weeks of that and i'd be overtrained to hell and back so i'd not grow from that, but a person can actually grow quite nicely from a few weeks of high volume, cause when they come off it, the supercompensation can be a very anabolic environment, so i could say 40 sets for 4 weeks.

But you get the point i'm trying to convey.

Twin Peak · 11-11-2002, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
If i went into the gym and did 40 sets for every bodypart for the next 20 weeks, i'd be sore as hell. Would i be growing optimally?

Obviously this isn't the best example, since 20 weeks of that and i'd be overtrained to hell and back so i'd not grow from that, but a person can actually grow quite nicely from a few weeks of high volume, cause when they come off it, the supercompensation can be a very anabolic environment, so i could say 40 sets for 4 weeks.

But you get the point i'm trying to convey.

So you have established that there is a sliding scale of hypertrophy, which I agree with.

In other words, lets use a scale of 1-20. 1 is where you have not trained at all and thus no gains would result and there us zero soreness.

Twenty is the worst form of overtraining humanly possible, like your first example Rob. Extreme soreness results and no hypertrophy results but rather atrophy.

10 is the OPTIMAL workout, producing the most size gains possible.

IMO, you are probably getting sore, if only slightly when you hit a 7 or 8. Thus, if you are not typically getting sore you are only achieving a 6, at best, falling short of your potential.

11-13 you are getting sore, probably too sore and slightly overtraining but probably producing better results than a 6. 14 and up and you are in trouble, but yes sore.

This is a very black and white example, but you get my point.

**Prince** · 11-11-2002, 11:45 AM

your example is stating that soreness is necessary for hypertrophy to occur.

Twin Peak · 11-11-2002, 11:53 AM

Sorry, guess I left out that on this scale 2-6 included training that produced hypertrophy in to an escalating degree.

Robboe · 11-11-2002, 12:05 PM

Hypertrophy resides under a bell-shaped curve.

Too little and no hypertrophy.

Too much and no hypertrophy (or atrophy is greater).

Under the curve and you're bang on.

Supply enough calories (and nutrients) to support the growth, but not too many to promote the growth of fat cells, and you're sorted.

Aim to outlift your previous week's accomplishment or use techniques to damage the muscle (in a good way).

Here's the real key:

repeat.

Seriously, consistancy is a severely overlooked principle.

Robboe · 11-11-2002, 12:05 PM

If i give that a really fancy name i could make quite a bit of money.

Twin Peak · 11-11-2002, 12:10 PM

I agree with all of that. How about the Consistent_Daddy_Principle?

The point though, of this discussion was not whether you are under the bell curve. The curve is quite large. You can be anywhere within two standard deviations of the mean and still cause growth. The question is how do you KNOW you are dead on.

The answer, of course, is you don't.

But I have suggested, and still maintain, that if you are not regularly getting sore, you KNOW you are not dead on.

11-09-2002, 10:57 AM	#1
aurexie Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: singapore Posts: 13	soreness ahem i am rather confused... i go to the gym for about a month now.. and i have found that my body gets tired become i can get the soreness ... is it common ?? should i add more weights? but once i add weight i cannot lift it up my reps will go down ... what is this suppose to mean ? what is the best suggestion i should do inorder to get the sorness back ?

11-09-2002, 11:49 AM	#2
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,728 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	sounds like your body has adapted to your routine. There are several things you can do: change your routine, use different exercises, increase weight, add some techniques like super setting or forced reps. also, you do not always have to get sore from a work-out, there can still be progress (hypertrophy) with out soreness.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

11-09-2002, 12:08 PM	#3
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,027 Photos: 1	Almost the only times I ever get sore, are after coming off an extended layoff and overdoing it.
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11-09-2002, 01:09 PM	#8
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Typo. Answer el questionio.
	Being held down by The Man

11-09-2002, 01:18 PM	#9
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,728 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	it's basically what the term says: the body, e.g muscles, "adapt" to training either by muscles getting larger and/or stronger...there are different types of adaptation as well. "Systematic training results in certain structural and physiological changes, or adaptations, in the body. The size and definition of the body's muscles indicate the level of adaptation. The magnitude of these adaptations is directly proportional to the demands placed upon the body by volume (quantity) of training, frequency of training and intensity (load) of training." Periodization for building muscle power and mass By Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

11-09-2002, 12:14 PM	#4
kidda9 The little feller Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: liverpool(u.k) Posts: 164	i rareley get very sore any moor used to wen very first started though!

11-09-2002, 01:33 PM	#11
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,728 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	yeah, I guess it sounded that way. we really need more info to determine whether or not he needs to change anything. I was just suggesting some techinques to keep his body off balance. by his post it sounded like he was going in and doing the same thing for the past month and is no longer seeing/feeling any results, hell it's possible that he's just over training but I also said that soreness is not neceassary, many poeple judge the effectiveness of their work-outs by soreness.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

11-09-2002, 01:41 PM	#12
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	He's just equating soreness with growth. Once he realises the correlation is thinner than it appears, he should be right. Just as long as he's getting bigger and stronger.
	Being held down by The Man

11-09-2002, 03:51 PM	#13
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	My legs have hurt like hell for two days now, I must have done something right.
	Cool

11-10-2002, 12:29 AM	#14
aurexie Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: singapore Posts: 13	ahem my rountine is 3 days a week in a gym gor estimate 1.5hrs each session. monday arms and shoulder wednesday chest and back friday legs saturday will have a judo session Hmmpz... thanks ... that means i should increase my number of reps for lets say i am carrying 150lbs if i can manage to do it more then 12 that for 3 times means that it is time to add more weight till i am able to lift 8 reps for 3 times? till i can reach 12 reps??

11-10-2002, 07:35 PM	#16
Trap-isaurus Just me, being me. Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: !Da' Gym! Da Gym In Canada. Posts: 2,450 Photos: 3	I have a habit of always doing four sets am I alone in this?
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11-11-2002, 07:23 AM	#17
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Drug use supports higher volume. If i was only doing one or two exercises, i may do 4 sets for each. But for the most part, 2 sets is the norm, with 3 sets max on certain days if i fancy.
	Being held down by The Man

11-11-2002, 08:34 AM	#18
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	I prefer three sets for most exercises. Also, I agree with Rob 100% on progressively overloading the muscles, however, I prefer a 6-10 rep range rather than 8-12 for optimal musclar hypertrophy (for most people). Further, I think Prince's idea of "switching it up" is a valuable tool; but not until one is much more advanced does it become remotely necessary. Lastly, I don't think soreness is always necessary, but I still get very sore from ALMOST every good workout. I do think it is a positive indicator of future hypertrophy and a lack of soreness, IMO, is due to muscular adaptation and, likely, not training at or near failure. I am not saying you cannot grow without getting sore, I am saying that I do not believe you are growing optimally. Last edited by Twin Peak : 11-11-2002 at 08:38 AM.
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11-11-2002, 10:07 AM	#19
Freeman Bearded Attacker Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,648 Photos: 8	So, to get stronger, do heavier weights, lesser reps..right? I've been using the 8-12 rep range...slowly getting stronger, although I'm still a weakling compared to most of you guys! bastards! I'll catch you some day! Also, I usually have to do smith-machine bench or hammer strength b/c I don't have a lift partner..this could be affecting my progress..a good lift partner can motivate you to do more, and I miss those good ol' days of lifting in high school with my buds.
	www.kingsburymusic.net

11-11-2002, 11:45 AM	#22
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,728 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	your example is stating that soreness is necessary for hypertrophy to occur.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

11-11-2002, 11:53 AM	#23
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	Sorry, guess I left out that on this scale 2-6 included training that produced hypertrophy in to an escalating degree.
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11-11-2002, 12:05 PM	#24
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Hypertrophy resides under a bell-shaped curve. Too little and no hypertrophy. Too much and no hypertrophy (or atrophy is greater). Under the curve and you're bang on. Supply enough calories (and nutrients) to support the growth, but not too many to promote the growth of fat cells, and you're sorted. Aim to outlift your previous week's accomplishment or use techniques to damage the muscle (in a good way). Here's the real key: repeat. Seriously, consistancy is a severely overlooked principle.
	Being held down by The Man

11-11-2002, 12:10 PM	#26
Twin Peak Peak Physiques™ Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NY Posts: 7,967	I agree with all of that. How about the Consistent_Daddy_Principle? The point though, of this discussion was not whether you are under the bell curve. The curve is quite large. You can be anywhere within two standard deviations of the mean and still cause growth. The question is how do you KNOW you are dead on. The answer, of course, is you don't. But I have suggested, and still maintain, that if you are not regularly getting sore, you KNOW you are not dead on.
	www.DesignerSupps.com INTELLIGENT DESIGN™...lands on 1/1/2007 www.in