Thread: powerlifting and boxing

Originally Posted by Kenny Croxdale

Complex Training

Complex Training (aka Contrast Training) supersets a heavy movement with a moderate or light movement to increasing power and/or speed.

It is an effective tool.

My Experience

I've used Complex Training for over 10 years as a means of increasing strength and power.

Kenny Croxdale

What types of workouts with weights? Bodyparts ext..?

I tried both at the same time back in college, and it didn't work out.

Originally Posted by Call of Ktulu

What types of workouts with weights? Bodyparts ext..?

Ktula,

Super Settting The Same Muscle Groups

Complex Training bascially super sets the same muscle groups with a heavy load movement followed by a moderate to light load movement.

"Body Part" Bench Press Examples.

Let's say you can Bench Press 300 lbs X 1 Repetition, 1RM

Heavy Load Bench Press Set, 80% Plus of 1RM

That means you want to perform your 1RM with about 80% plus of 300 lbs. (300 X 80% = 240 lbs).

240 lbs X 1 Repetition Heavy Set Bench Press

Thus, you'd perform 1 Repetition with 240 lbs or MORE.

Moderate Load Bench Press, 40-60% of 1 RM

Moderate loads with about 40-60% of your 1RM are effective in developing Power. Thus, this second set program is written to develop Power.

120 To 180 lbs X 2-3 Repetitions

Thus, you'd preform your Power Set with a load of 120 to 180 lbs.

Rest Period Between Heavy and Moderate Load

Your rest period between your heavy set and moderate set need to be between 1-3 minutes.

The main thing is to rest enough after your heavy set to insure that you are explosive on your second Power Set.

Writing The Program

Complex Training is an effective tool for increasing strength, power, speed and hypertrophy (bodybuilding).

Power Program

Power is developed by utilizing a moderate load in the second set of approximately 40-60% of your 1 RM, 1 Repetition Max.

Speed Program

Speed is developed when lighter loads are used in the second set, approximately 10-40% of you 1RM.

These sets need to be Ballistic. Ballistic meaning either your body or an object need to become airborne.

Ballistic Exercise Examples

1) Squat Jumps. Driving up so hard and fast your feet leave the ground.

2) Bench Press Throws. Literally, throwing the bar into the air. A Smith Machine works well for this.

3) Etc...

Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Program

The second set is performed with loads of about 60-% of your 1RM for 8-12 Repetitions. Thus, the load would be 180 to 240 lbs X 8-12 Repetition. (180 to 240 lbs being 60-80%).

That would mean your Heavy Bench Press Set would need to be closer to 300 lbs X 1 RM.

Different Heavy and Moderate To Light Load Movement Combination

A different approach that I am more an advocate of is to use different exercises that work the same muscle groups in your Complex Training Sets.

Combo Example:

1) Heavy Dips, Incline Press, or Deline Press (chose one)

Thus, you'd perform a heavy dip, incline press or decline press. Rest and then perform you power, speed or hypertrophy set.

2) Moderate to Light Bench Press

Articles

Power Development Article
Kenny Complex Training

Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Development
http://www.onewhey.ca/the16principle.pdf

Kenny Croxdale

Originally Posted by KelJu

I tried both at the same time back in college, and it didn't work out.

Baking A Cake

It like baking a cake. You may have all the right ingredients. However, if you put in the wrong amounts, it doesn't work.

That means you end up with a completely different cake.

The Problem

The problem is that most individuals when a program doesn't work, blame the prorgram.

Garbage In Garbage Out

As with anything, if the program is not written and followed properly...it won't work.

Complex Training

When I initially tried Complex Training with my deadlift, I made huge gains.

I attribute my success to "accidently" getting it right...in other words, I guess right.

Advance Complex Training

I then wrote up my new program, Advance Complex Training.

With Advanced Complex Training I was able to take my best deadlift DOWN 50 lbs.

Right Ingredients, Wrong Amounts

Let's go back to the Cake Analogy. I once baked a cake and ended up putting 2 Cups of Oil in, instead of 1 Cup of Oil.

Putting 2 Cup of Oil in screwed my cake up.

Same With Programs

That's exactly what I did with Advance Complex Training.

"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Einstein

It took me a year of playing with Advance Complex Training to figure it out.

Once I did, I ended up putting another 25 lbs on my best ever deadlift.

Moral To The Story

The take home message is that when something doesn't work, DON"T blame the program.

The problem is often that either you wrote the program wrong, performed it incorrectly, or both.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny some would say 5-6 years of training is a beginner, I don't know. I have increased my 2mile run time and my 3 power lifts while eating a lot of food and using a mild amount of gear. (500mg Test. and GHRP).
I do cardio 2-3 times a week for half an hour and run 1-2 miles on Saturday. With a 531 PL routine. Come at me bro.

Originally Posted by wisco

Kenny some would say 5-6 years of training is a beginner, I don't know. I have increased my 2mile run time and my 3 power lifts while eating a lot of food and using a mild amount of gear. (500mg Test. and GHRP).
I do cardio 2-3 times a week for half an hour and run 1-2 miles on Saturday. With a 531 PL routine. Come at me bro.

How fast are you running these miles? Are you doing HIIT?

Originally Posted by wisco

Kenny some would say 5-6 years of training is a beginner, I don't know. I have increased my 2mile run time and my 3 power lifts while eating a lot of food and using a mild amount of gear. (500mg Test. and GHRP).
I do cardio 2-3 times a week for half an hour and run 1-2 miles on Saturday. With a 531 PL routine. Come at me bro.

Running abilities are not applicable to boxing or any combat sports. Running is rhythmic and is about breathing, but there is not a rhythm to boxing, MMA, etc.

Originally Posted by Call of Ktulu

Alright so what would a boxer do to increase his strength but slow himself down with weightlifting?

I'd still say do a cross fit workout with a little more weight and a little less reps...... Not a lot more weight but some.

Even if you don't get really strong you will have the cardio ot out last em'

Heavy lifting is NOT what you need!

Originally Posted by Call of Ktulu

How fast are you running these miles? Are you doing HIIT?

About a 7min mile pace, a little faster for 1 mile. Sometimes I do run sprints (usually totaling a mile or more).

Originally Posted by Rodja

Running abilities are not applicable to boxing or any combat sports. Running is rhythmic and is about breathing, but there is not a rhythm to boxing, MMA, etc.

But the OP was about endurance and strength. It is lazy to think you cannot be good at both.
No, you probably won't be a marathon runner or run a 4.4 40 while having a 2000lb total and weighing 280+. But, you can certainly build strength and speed together. Athletes do it all the time. You need fuel for your body (food and drugs and hard work)

Originally Posted by Call of Ktulu

How can a person do both? I know a lot of boxers have to run many miles but a lot of them have great power such as Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson would do over an hour of cardio a day and he would do heavy squats, how? How can a powerlifter have good endurance? How do you crosstrain like that?

I was a boxer and did weights.Weighlifting can be a good thing IF you don't become too bulky.My trainer didn't approve tough.

Originally Posted by wisco

But the OP was about endurance and strength. It is lazy to think you cannot be good at both.
No, you probably won't be a marathon runner or run a 4.4 40 while having a 2000lb total and weighing 280+. But, you can certainly build strength and speed together. Athletes do it all the time. You need fuel for your body (food and drugs and hard work)

"Jack Of All Trades, Master of NONE."

You will become well rounded, so to speak. However, you will never reach you full potential in any sports.

Building Strength and Speed

Running a mile and/or running a half hour builds neither strength nor speed.

Running a Mile

Running a mile makes you good at running a mile. That's it.

How May Boxers Run A Mile In The Ring?

None. The "Law of Specificity" means you training need to represent the sprot your in.

Boxers who run countless miles are metophorically speaking, "Going nowhere."

Food, Drugs, Hard Work AND The Right Program.

Using your head for something beside blocking punches works better.

Kenny Croxdale

Originally Posted by wisco

But the OP was about endurance and strength. It is lazy to think you cannot be good at both.
No, you probably won't be a marathon runner or run a 4.4 40 while having a 2000lb total and weighing 280+. But, you can certainly build strength and speed together. Athletes do it all the time. You need fuel for your body (food and drugs and hard work)

Again, you're talking about something completely different than the cardio demands of combat sports, which is the question of the OP. Power is the focus of combat sports and not strength. Unlike practically every other sport out there, combat sports is about keeping your weight down to a reasonable level and competing.

In MMA, for example, it is extremely common to see someone start out in one weight class and then drop 1-2 classes as they go along in their career.

Originally Posted by Usealittle

I'd still say do a cross fit workout with a little more weight and a little less reps...... Not a lot more weight but some.

Even if you don't get really strong you will have the cardio ot out last em'

Crossfit workouts are not suitable for athletes. They do not address the specific needs of the athletes, promote performing technical exercises while in a state of extreme fatigue, and implement very poor methods of progression.

Saying that improving strength is not important is only potentially true. You need to asses the individual athlete. If the athlete's strength is low enough, then improving maximal strength is beneficial in virtually every sport. This is true even if it's a sport like boxing where velocity is the far more relevant number on the force-velocity spectrum. However, if the athlete already has adequate maximal strength, then improving this attribute does reach a point of diminishing returns.

Let me emphasize this point again though: Improving strength is NEVER a bad thing. It does not make you slower. It can only make you faster. Getting bigger may be a problem if you intend to stay within your weight class, but if that's the case, then you need to be paying attention to diet to prevent such an occurrence. You can get stronger without getting bigger.

I'm making the point that is possible to become faster and stronger. My run time has become faster. I have become stronger. Same time.
Croxdale, Clay Matthews, Ken Norton, Mike Tyson, and any UFC guy you want to pick are not "Jack's" of strength and speed? They have not become bigger faster and stronger simultaneously?
Obviously those guys are the best at what they do, but it just goes to show once again it is very possible.

Originally Posted by wisco

I'm making the point that is possible to become faster and stronger. My run time has become faster. I have become stronger. Same time.
Croxdale, Clay Matthews, Ken Norton, Mike Tyson, and any UFC guy you want to pick are not "Jack's" of strength and speed? They have not become bigger faster and stronger simultaneously?
Obviously those guys are the best at what they do, but it just goes to show once again it is very possible.

If they focused on one biomotor ability or another, it would be more highly developed in that individual. Yes you can improve all of your biomotor abilities over baseline, but you can not optimize performance in all of them simultaneously. There is a difference.

This is why sport specific training is so important. All sports require a unique blend of these abilities. Your training program should reflect the priorities that the sport dictates.

So, it does work. Glad we figured that out.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If they focused on one biomotor ability or another, it would be more highly developed in that individual. Yes you can improve all of your biomotor abilities over baseline, but you can not optimize performance in all of them simultaneously. There is a difference.

This is why sport specific training is so important. All sports require a unique blend of these abilities. Your training program should reflect the priorities that the sport dictates.

Periodizational training allows to peak in multiple sports at different times but focusing more one aspect at each point of the year.

Periodization Programs at StewSmith.com - Military or Law Enforcement Fitness - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, Marines, RECON, SEAL, Ranger, Police, FBI

Originally Posted by wisco

I'm making the point that is possible to become faster and stronger. My run time has become faster. I have become stronger. Same time.
Croxdale, Clay Matthews, Ken Norton, Mike Tyson, and any UFC guy you want to pick are not "Jack's" of strength and speed? They have not become bigger faster and stronger simultaneously?
Obviously those guys are the best at what they do, but it just goes to show once again it is very possible.

Justin Wilcox is a pro bodybuilder and mma fighter.

Originally Posted by wisco

So, it does work. Glad we figured that out.

What do you mean by "it does work?"

Think about it like this. Compare the strongest football player, soccer player, or basketball player to the strongest powerlifter or strongman competitor. Do they even compare? Hardly.

Are all of the aforementioned athletes compared to your average recreational gymgoer? Of course they are, but that doesn't mean they are anywhere near their max potential unless they prioritize that specific biomotor ability.

Saying that you can see improvement in multiple abilities at the same time is obvious. That doesn't mean it makes sense to try and equally train all those abilities at the same time.

How can you really judge what someone's max potential is an dhow far they are from it? The point it, YES you can continue to become faster and stronger. Go back and read what I have said, I am not going to keep repeating myself in circles.

Getting faster and stronger, with limitations and a million variables. I am living proof. (I am no olympic runner or pro strongman but if I can do both I assume most people can.)

Originally Posted by wisco

How can you really judge what someone's max potential is an dhow far they are from it? The point it, YES you can continue to become faster and stronger. Go back and read what I have said, I am not going to keep repeating myself in circles.

Getting faster and stronger, with limitations and a million variables. I am living proof. (I am no olympic runner or pro strongman but if I can do both I assume most people can.)

Performance differences of a few percentage points makes a huge difference in athletic endeavors. Some biomotor abilities have some crossover in terms of what is happening physiologically to improve the effect. Some do not. If you try to enhance aerobic endurance and rate of force development, you WILL sacrifice a substantial amount of performance. If you do the same with maximal strength and RFD, then there won't be much of a problem at all.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Powerlifting type training should never make you slower. If anything, it should improve rate of force development. It is a myth that resistance training makes you slower.

Powerlifting "type" of training should not make u slow.... Unless your REALLY TRYInG TO LIFT HEAVY! Witch would be the point of powerlifting. If your doin as you say powerlifting "style" then u might as well do oly lifting (for form) or just go cross fit. As if you have not noticed that's what cross-fit is. Just with much lighter weight.

So for you to say you can powerlift and not get slow, is not smart. If a weight being moved is heavy it will move slow........

Originally Posted by Usealittle

Powerlifting "type" of training should not make u slow.... Unless your REALLY TRYInG TO LIFT HEAVY! Witch would be the point of powerlifting. If your doin as you say powerlifting "style" then u might as well do oly lifting (for form) or just go cross fit. As if you have not noticed that's what cross-fit is. Just with much lighter weight.

So for you to say you can powerlift and not get slow, is not smart. If a weight being moved is heavy it will move slow........

That is just plain wrong. It will not make you slow. This is a complete misnomer. Lifting very heavy weights, even slowly, will never make you slow. The only reason the heavy weight is moving slow is because you can't possibly produce enough force to move it quickly. When you are talking about moving submaximal loads, things change.

Think of it like this. If you take two people: one who can deadlift a 1RM of 500 pounds and one who can deadlift a 1RM of 700 pounds, who would you guess is capable of moving 400 pounds at a higher velocity? My vote is going to person B. By increasing maximal strength, you decrease the intensity of moving submaximal external loads.

Granted, what I have just stated applies less when we're talking about very submaximal weights, such as your bodyweight or a very light implement like a ball. However, the same still applies to some extent. By increasing maximal strength it doesn't much affect the maximal velocity at which you are capable of moving/accelerating a limb. It does, however, improve the velocity at which you can move that limb if it is loaded in an significant fashion. In some cases, this does apply to bodyweight, especially when we're talking about the full load of your bodyweight being manipulated by a single limb (Which happens plenty in most athletic endeavors).

Improving maximal strength will help more in some sports than others. Football and wrestling are two examples where it can help quite a lot. However, it will NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, make you slower.

Also, Crossfit training can under no circumstances be considered powerlifter style training. There is absolutely no resemblance.

What I meant was training like a powerlifter. You can train like a powerlifter without actually competing in powerlifting.

Originally Posted by VolcomX311

BTW, I don't mean to come off as pretentious know-it-all douche, this is just how I sound/post when I'm trying to be helpful.

Too late...

Originally Posted by awhites1

Too late...