Thread: Training Routine (New)

Where are the deadlifts? Deadlifts are the most neglected exercises and I will never understand this. There is nothing better for endogenous gH output and testosterone than the deadlift and squat.

A deadlift is a lift and should have it's own day, but if you can't I would throw some in on your Pull day or your shoulders and delts. I could seriously write a book on just this one exercise and it's benefits.

i didnt think it was good to do deadlifts with squats the next day
Could i switch them out each week? So one week deadlifts next week squats?

Do what the man says, switch out one of the curls and put deadlifts first on back day. I would also consider ditching the shoulder day and putting shoulder press instead of hammer incline on chest day. Pullovers are also more of a lat movement so i'd do dips instead. Make it a 3x week program.

That way you could do:

Legs (Squats, Leg Press, Leg Extension, Glute Ham Raise, Calve Raise)
Push (Dumbell Bench, Shoulder Press, Dips, Flys, Pushdowns)
Pull (Deads, Pullups, Seated Row, Single Arm Pulldowns, Curls)

This is a much more solid program, and didn't really have to alter it too much. For the most part your exercise selection was pretty good, a lot better on the whole than the last program you posted

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Do what the man says, switch out one of the curls and put deadlifts first on back day. I would also consider ditching the shoulder day and putting shoulder press instead of hammer incline on chest day. Pullovers are also more of a lat movement so i'd do dips instead. Make it a 3x week program.

That way you could do:

Legs (Squats, Leg Press, Leg Extension, Glute Ham Raise, Calve Raise)
Push (Dumbell Bench, Shoulder Press, Dips, Flys, Pushdowns)
Pull (Deads, Pullups, Seated Row, Single Arm Pulldowns, Curls)

This is a much more solid program, and didn't really have to alter it too much. For the most part your exercise selection was pretty good, a lot better on the whole than the last program you posted

Perfect. Thanks Gaz. This is similar to how I train currently. I exert myself so much on squat and deadlift days that I do very few supplementaries afterwards. When it comes to heavy compounds I take the mindset of a power lifter and train accordingly until unloading. Just always remember to chose compounds first. Isolation movements should come secondary. Many people get so far into advanced mechanics and training techniques that they will swap the barbell for the dumbells without thinking. Let the barbell be your weapon of choice, and the dumbells be your sidearm

Deadlifts will fit nicely into your pull day. You want to take care of this first thing in the gym. The intensity will shock your body into a more sensitive state of growth due to the amount of muscles simultaneously being loaded, thus priming you for the rest of your workout and making it more effective. You will get massive traps if you deadlift I promise you.

I had a trainer at gym watch me on my form with deadlifts he said it was perfect but
There so painful! :P i struggle to get 3x10 last session i did 2x5

So reduce the weight?

But I could do I think it has having a offday don't worry I'll do deadlifts as
Alot people told me.. Deadlifts change your body :

Originally Posted by rezkon

i didnt think it was good to do deadlifts with squats the next day

Correct

You don't want to have them on back to back days.

Originally Posted by rezkon

Could i switch them out each week? So one week deadlifts next week squats?

Alternate Weeks

Performing Squats one week and Deadlifts another week is one option.

Deadlifts

One of the problems with the lower back is that it is quickly and easily overtrained, especially with traditional deadlifts.

Remedies

There are a couple of solutions to this problem.

One is alternating you squat and dealift training, as recommended.

Another Option

1) Good Mornings

2) Back Extensions

3) Still Leg Deadlifts

4) Romanian Deadlifts

5) Glute Ham (which you already have in your program).

These exercises allow you to work the lower back while mimimizing the overtraining effect.

So, you've got the bases covered.

Information In Hand

With that information in hand, your Leg Day is good with one exception.

Leg Extensions

I've addressed this before. Leg Extensions, overall, are a wothless exercise.

Leg Extension provide very little return for the time and energy invested in them.

Kenny Croxdale

Originally Posted by Gazhole

I would also consider ditching the shoulder day...

Shoulder Day

I agree. You already have two shoulder days in your program.

Pressing/Pushing Movements

Pressing movements work the anterior shoulder (front deltoid).

That means you're get plenty of anterior shoulder work with:

Flat Dumbbell press

Hammer incline press

Chest pullovers

Dumbbell Flys

Pulling Movements

Pullups Normal Grip

Seated Row

Lat-pull down

These work the back deltoid (posterior deltoid).

Overtraining

The irony is that many individuals don't realize how much the shoulders are trained with these movements.

Performing a "Shoulder Day" usually ends up overtraining the shoulders.

Stimulate

The goal of training is provide enough stress to simulate the muscles in a postive way.

Annihilate

Overtraining produces a negative effect and eventually lead to injuries.

Kenny Croxdale

I could use an opinion from you more experienced guys. Since deads and squats give a huge growth signal, would it be beneficial to take advantage of them by doing some targeted accessory work?

For example doing some side raises on deadlift day so the medial delts benefit from the hormone releases triggered by the heavy deads. Would this concept work to help bring up a lagging body part?

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

I could use an opinion from you more experienced guys. Since deads and squats give a huge growth signal, would it be beneficial to take advantage of them by doing some targeted accessory work?

For example doing some side raises on deadlift day so the medial delts benefit from the hormone releases triggered by the heavy deads. Would this concept work to help bring up a lagging body part?

BINGO. (More or less) This is exactly why guys say "If you want to get big, Squat and Deadlift". Uneducated lifters may say well I want big arms so I am going to hit them twice a week. Wrong. If you want size, deadlift. The gH response from your body during this exercise alone is exponential in comparison to smashing out 50 sets of 15 preacher curls.

Big guys squat in the squat rack. Little guys curl in the squat rack.

This is exactly why you want your heavy compounds to be at the beginning of your workout. Your workouts should be designed around them. Remember though, these are heavy compounds. You have four basic movements which incorporate the same muscles with each movement. When you lift the muscle groups recruited would be the same as those used on pull day or squat day. So if you want to hit some accessory work it wouldn't make sense to do tricep pushdowns on deadlift day. You would want to save those for press day to avoid over-training the muscles. Hormones are released into your bloodstream and are free to attach to where ever they are needed. It's not like they only interact with the muscles being stimulated for growth at the time (ie: back and shoulders because you just smashed out some deadlifts). If you have a muscle that is recovering from a previous workout it will also reap the benefits of this hormonal response.

Delts are tricky, but for the most part you want to focus your attention on them on press day, however YOU CAN do something such as a lateral raise on pull day (back and traps). Something like an overhead press needs to be saved for press day (or "chest and tris"). Just make sure you aren't over training them or they will not grow.

When you begin to approach the way you train from the mindset of movements and muscle groups instead of individual body parts or upper and lower, you will see better results.

Thanks, Great, that was what I was hoping to hear. The biggest challenge I'm facing now is just how to incorporate the accessory work into my routine. Because I *do* want to do tricep pushdowns on squat day, and yet like you said I certainly don't want to over-train them. I don't even want to call it accessory work, because all I really want to accomplish is doing the minimal amount of sets/reps/weight needed to prompt the muscles to grow, and take advantage of the hormone response from the uber-heavy stuff.

I mentioned side raises because mid-delts aren't really used hard in most push/pull routines, and I really dislike doing them on chest or back days because at age 45 I need to be a little kinder to my shoulders. I've been doing side raises on squat days for the past month and have been wondering if my reasoning made sense. I guess it also explains why I'm using an additional 2 kilos after just a month. Hoping to have some cannonballs to go with the guns next summer.

So when I switch off of targeting my delts (which I can do a normal 3x10 routine for), what do you think might be a good routine for other muscles that get used more often? 1x10? 3x3? 1x10 heavy eccentrics? What's the absolute minimum you think would work to prompt a "need to grow" response, and not work the muscle so hard as to lead to over-training when it's used again as part of a compound lift?

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Do what the man says, switch out one of the curls and put deadlifts first on back day. I would also consider ditching the shoulder day and putting shoulder press instead of hammer incline on chest day. Pullovers are also more of a lat movement so i'd do dips instead. Make it a 3x week program.

That way you could do:

Legs (Squats, Leg Press, Leg Extension, Glute Ham Raise, Calve Raise)
Push (Dumbell Bench, Shoulder Press, Dips, Flys, Pushdowns)
Pull (Deads, Pullups, Seated Row, Single Arm Pulldowns, Curls)

This is a much more solid program, and didn't really have to alter it too much. For the most part your exercise selection was pretty good, a lot better on the whole than the last program you posted

listen to this and you will thank yourself. Gotta have deads in your week, maybe alternate between deads and rack pulls if you want to change it up from one week to the next.

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

Thanks, Great, that was what I was hoping to hear. The biggest challenge I'm facing now is just how to incorporate the accessory work into my routine. Because I *do* want to do tricep pushdowns on squat day, and yet like you said I certainly don't want to over-train them. I don't even want to call it accessory work, because all I really want to accomplish is doing the minimal amount of sets/reps/weight needed to prompt the muscles to grow, and take advantage of the hormone response from the uber-heavy stuff.

Naw I know what you mean. In order to stimulate growth, one or two sets of an exercise of intermediate intensity will not do it. So if you are going to do accessory work to jump start a lagging body part, the intensity needs to be there. There are many ways to accomplish intensity.

Another tip would be to change your rep schemes up every week for this body part. Hit 2x12 to failure on your squat day, then lets say 3x8 + 1 set to failure on your next day. ONLY do this if you are geared though. Otherwise you will overtrain if you truly train with the proper intensity.

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

So when I switch off of targeting my delts (which I can do a normal 3x10 routine for), what do you think might be a good routine for other muscles that get used more often? 1x10? 3x3? 1x10 heavy eccentrics? What's the absolute minimum you think would work to prompt a "need to grow" response, and not work the muscle so hard as to lead to over-training when it's used again as part of a compound lift?

The key is change. Don't get caught up in a rep/set mindset for too long because your body and muscles will adapt and you will have to find more ways to stimulate growth. There IS a fine line between hypertphic and endurance training when talking about reps/sets but changing it up is still key as long as the training is geared toward your goals.

I train for hypertrophy and strength, so I follow the WBC Book of Methods and the teachings of Dorian Yates, Bill Star, Rippetoe, Mike Mentzer etc etc, and I train accordingly. If the intensity is there (no matter how many reps/sets you do) you will stimulate growth. Your instensity should come from your reps/sets, how much weight you use or volume, and rest between sets. It should be your goal to shorten your rest between sets, increase reps, or increase your weights or total volume used every week. Something in your training has to change, or you won't.

That's as simple as I can put it without going off on tangents like I seem to do lol.

Check out some of the readings I mentioned and it will change your life I swear.

Current Views on new routine.

Chest Day
Woke Up Today, Sore as around my armpit area havent felt sore in there for a long time
Back Day
Took out the preacher curls, threw in dead lifts first thing in the day. Went Heavy..Went Red..Felt Good!
Had trouble trying to do pull-ups..im not strong enough to lift my own weight atm so i tried to get as high as i could and all the way back down,
Finished the rest of the training, got back down in 30 minutes
I have about a 1 minute rest with the big compounds.
otherwise its very short 10-20 secs.

Currently: 78.7kgs
Goal: 80kgs then i will see if i want to cut at 80.

Originally Posted by rezkon

Current Views on new routine.

Chest Day
Woke Up Today, Sore as around my armpit area havent felt sore in there for a long time
Back Day
Took out the preacher curls, threw in dead lifts first thing in the day. Went Heavy..Went Red..Felt Good!
Had trouble trying to do pull-ups..im not strong enough to lift my own weight atm so i tried to get as high as i could and all the way back down,
Finished the rest of the training, got back down in 30 minutes
I have about a 1 minute rest with the big compounds.
otherwise its very short 10-20 secs.

Currently: 78.7kgs
Goal: 80kgs then i will see if i want to cut at 80.

Spot on brother. Keep the rest periods a bit longer with your heavy compounds like you said, and keep the rest periods short on supplementaries to keep the intensity up. You will soon discover how deadlifts increase your overall growth. Throw in some nice barefoot squats to parallel and you'll gain 2-3 kgs before you know it.

You should run a log mate. It helps to keep track of your progress. What's your BF% looking like?

I'm not going to get into the whole deadlift and squat thing again, but I just wanted to chime in on your periodization. It has been shown (I'll have to dig around for the article if you guys want to see a reference) that non-linear periodization is optimal for stimulating progression, ie. instead of your weeks going in order of 8 to 10 to 12 to 14 reps, try switching it up by doing something like 8-14-10-12.

Just a thought. Once you get a program set, I understand reluctance to change it. But maybe you can apply it after this cycle.

The program was something i just wrote off the top of my head. The idea is to start with a moderate weight, and keep that weight throughout the entire program.

Adding sets increases the volume without increasing the time under tension per set, but the increased overall volume per exercise will allow you add more reps (TUT) next cycle after you supercompensate during the unload week.

Then repeat a few times.

Eventually you'll be doing multiple sets of 14+ reps on a weight you previously could only do for a single 10RM set. It's basic. The main point of it is that by the end of the cycle you'll be stronger, better conditioned to higher volume, and bigger because of both.

And this is over a wide range of exercises. The ramping down of frequency just makes it easier on the body, and leaves more time for conditioning days which are important for newbies especially.

Even though the number of reps is linear, the total volume is wave loaded, and the training frequency is wave UN-loaded, so theres a little more going on than typical linear stuff like:

4x10 @ 65%
4x8 @ 70%
3x6 @ 75%
3x4 @ 80%
2x3 @ 85%
2x2 @ 90%
1x1 @ 95%
1x1 @ 100%

Going on. Still basic though, yeah.

I see, I see. I like your style.

I agree with you though, undulating style periodization is great for hypertrophy when compared with a standard linear setup. Especially once linear training has kinda run it's course for you.

Strangely enough, after a few years away from linear periodization, going back to it seems to work great for all but your heaviest lifts. Squat and Deads need a bit more love, but i found military, rows, and other lighter things still respond really well for Starting Strength / 5x5 style linear schemes.

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteTruth

Spot on brother. Keep the rest periods a bit longer with your heavy compounds like you said, and keep the rest periods short on supplementaries to keep the intensity up. You will soon discover how deadlifts increase your overall growth. Throw in some nice barefoot squats to parallel and you'll gain 2-3 kgs before you know it.

You should run a log mate. It helps to keep track of your progress. What's your BF% looking like?

my mate just ordered a body-fat clipper so i shall be able to tell i'd rather give you a accurate reading then a completely wrong one, Im Starting a log tonight ill link it here.