?s re. mass building, shoulders and chest on same day

cheesegrater · 03-11-2003, 10:40 PM

i did the back mass building program with heavy deadlifts and realized there'd be no way i could do legs after that. So my new schedule is

Chest and shoulders
legs
bi's and tri's
back.....in that order

can i gain mass on both chest and shoulders doing them on the same day? If so what kind of shoulder exercises would you recommend?

thanx

Robboe · 03-12-2003, 06:10 AM

Sure you can, brutha! Just don't go overboard with the shoulder sets.

And i'd reconsider doing arms the day before back. or doing four days in a row.

Dr. Pain · 03-12-2003, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheesegrater

can i gain mass on both chest and shoulders doing them on the same day? If so what kind of shoulder exercises would you recommend?

thanx

"If you hit two major bodyparts in one day, something ain't getting hit right!" quote by WARLORD

Just HisHO

DP

Robboe · 03-12-2003, 06:17 AM

I take it your opinion is the same then, since you quoted him?

Dr. Pain · 03-12-2003, 06:22 AM

Every so often I do chest/back to remind myself....lol

Is essence yes....in a purist POV I'd agree with the quote, but see exceptions all of the time! I think it depends at what stage of development you are at, the intensity you use, your genetics...etc.

We do Shoulders/chest/back/arms/ next week in one W/O as a precontest depletion (2-3 days out).....and altough I love Pain...I h8 that W/O

DP

Robboe · 03-12-2003, 06:26 AM

Ah, see i don't really consider shoulders as a "major" bodypart.

It's sorta like the mid-range.

Back, chest and legs big.

Calves, arms, abs and forearms small.

Shoulders mid-way.

And since shoulders seem to get hit on pretty much every training session regardless of what part(s) you're doing, i think that it is possible to get the job done after a large bodypart. (or before, if i was to do shoulders before back).

I do think a three-day split is a brilliant strategy (push, pull, legs).

Robboe · 03-12-2003, 06:28 AM

But i'm not exactly what you'd call "big" so take that for what it's worth.

Dr. Pain · 03-12-2003, 07:35 AM

All of my trainees get huge/scuplted shoulders, and since we devote a major W/O towards them, I call them a "Big" bodypart

But to each their own...you have excellent points.....and I have fairly decent shoulders..... I think I'll just keep them seperate

Just wondering..I consider/hit traps w/shoulders.....would the total muscle w8 of the pecs, out-weigh the shoulders/traps?

(in a person w/shoulders/traps of course?)

DP

Robboe · 03-12-2003, 08:10 AM

I don't understand the question, sorry.

I actually do traps at the end of my back workouts.

Incidentally, rowing for back and pressing for chest aside, i do no work for shoulders right now, save for 2-3 sets of side laterals. Partially because i had some bother with my right delts posterior head, but also i wasn't too concerned because i've had good results in the past doing nothing for delts. I do think dropping overhead pressing has helped - probably because they were getting a bit overtraining being hit directly or indirectly four days a week.

**Prince** · 03-12-2003, 08:31 AM

hmmm...DP not sure how you can consider shoulders a "major bodypart". Relatively speaking they're quite small to other muscle groups, and they get worked indirectly with all other upper body exercises.

I do shoulders and traps on a separate day only because it just fits into my routine this way, but I do not do much volume wise, and for delts I really only isolate the medial head. Anterior and posterior get worked so much via chest and back work.

Dr. Pain · 03-12-2003, 08:43 AM

It's an effort to define big?

Length? Size? w8 (w8 of the muscle mass)?

Since you have a posterior delt...do you call that back? I call them shoulders...and like I said....I equate/link traps w/shouder's (watch your traps when you work your shoulders if you are lean enough) I have worked them w/back and know many that do, mainly because our shoulder W/O's are so extensive...

I'd give the combo of traps/shouders a BIGGER rating over BIG pecs for Size, length, and w8....JMHO

(and a good set of traps are thicker than most chests)

DP

Robboe · 03-12-2003, 08:58 AM

Ah, i getcha now. You refer to the delts/traps collectively. Fair enough.

And again, i'm not sure what you were asking but i was referring to the rear delt on the right arm.

I know what you're referring to with traps during delt workouts, but i see that as stabilisation more than anything. Just like if you watch your biceps during benching or your triceps during bicep curls.

**Prince** · 03-12-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
It's an effort to define big?

Length? Size? w8 (w8 of the muscle mass)?

Since you have a posterior delt...do you call that back? I call them shoulders...and like I said....I equate/link traps w/shouder's (watch your traps when you work your shoulders if you are lean enough) I have worked them w/back and know many that do, mainly because our shoulder W/O's are so extensive...

I'd give the combo of traps/shouders a BIGGER rating over BIG pecs for Size, length, and w8....JMHO

(and a good set of traps are thicker than most chests)
DP

No, I am not arguing the definition of "big", I said relatively speaking the delts are not big, that means in comparison with other muscles.

I do not call a posterior delt "back", I said when you work back the posterior delt is worked in all back movements, just as the anterior delt is worked in all chest pressing movements.

I agree if you're combining the traps and shoulders as one muscle group, which personally that is how I work them, although I do not see them as the same muscle group. If anything I consider the traps part of the back.

cheesegrater · 03-12-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Sure you can, brutha! Just don't go overboard with the shoulder sets.

And i'd reconsider doing arms the day before back. or doing four days in a row.

i don't do 4 days in a row, that's spread out over the week

cheesegrater · 03-12-2003, 04:48 PM

so can i do them both on the same day and expect mass results?

**Prince** · 03-12-2003, 04:54 PM

yes, you can work chest and shoulders on the same day, I recommend that you work chest first though.

Military presses and side laterals are my two favorites.

perfecto · 03-12-2003, 11:42 PM

I found that when i was working out my chest/shoulders on the same day, by the time id finish with my chest and start hitting the shoulders, i would just suffer and not be able to lift at all, hence my lifts never went up and i lost motivation because i felt i wasnt progressing. But i guess they were still geting worked, its just a mental thing...

**Prince** · 03-13-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by perfecto
I found that when i was working out my chest/shoulders on the same day, by the time id finish with my chest and start hitting the shoulders, i would just suffer and not be able to lift at all, hence my lifts never went up and i lost motivation because i felt i wasnt progressing. But i guess they were still geting worked, its just a mental thing...

you could say the same thing about working chest and tri's together, which is very common.

personally I work chest & bi's, back & tri's and shoulders & traps on a separate day.

perfecto · 03-13-2003, 07:32 PM

welll thats the routine i have now, what sort of exercises do you do for shoulders/traps?

**Prince** · 03-13-2003, 10:41 PM

Delts: Smith machine military presses and dumbbell laterals.

Traps: barbell shrugs.

Robboe · 03-14-2003, 08:43 AM

Why the smith?

**Prince** · 03-14-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Why the smith?

no, reason I just prefer it fo this movement, probably because I hurt my rotator cuffs last year and I am a bit scared of hurting them.

Robboe · 03-14-2003, 08:52 AM

Cool.

I hurt the back of my right delt a few months back and i've never done any overhead or incline pressing since then. I may do some smith inclines today actually.

Do you do the rotator cuff exercises?

**Prince** · 03-14-2003, 10:10 AM

yeah, actually I dropped incline presses completely from my work-out, and for around 9 months I dropped military presses as well, I just recently began using military's again on the Smith.

for rotator cuffs I do some shoulder rotation exercises to keep them loose/strong, and I ensure that I properly warm-up shoulders before any upper body work-out. So far, no problems!

Robboe · 03-14-2003, 10:30 AM

Good good.

Scotty the Body · 03-14-2003, 10:43 AM

I like the smith machines that are on a slight angle, they seem much more natural ROM than the 90 deg ones.

ectomorph141 · 03-14-2003, 02:41 PM

I am not sure of the names, but I know there are 3 muscles in the shoulder. Front, top, and rear. I do a lot of military presses and lateral excersizes but realized I hardly ever work the rear shoulder muscle. What is a good excersize for this. I leave in 15 minutes to do shoulders.

03-11-2003, 10:40 PM	#1
cheesegrater Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 466	?s re. mass building, shoulders and chest on same day i did the back mass building program with heavy deadlifts and realized there'd be no way i could do legs after that. So my new schedule is Chest and shoulders legs bi's and tri's back.....in that order can i gain mass on both chest and shoulders doing them on the same day? If so what kind of shoulder exercises would you recommend? thanx
	"fuck it all, and fucking no regrets" James Hetfield Damage Inc.

03-12-2003, 06:10 AM	#2
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Sure you can, brutha! Just don't go overboard with the shoulder sets. And i'd reconsider doing arms the day before back. or doing four days in a row.
	Being held down by The Man

03-12-2003, 06:17 AM	#4
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	I take it your opinion is the same then, since you quoted him?
	Being held down by The Man

03-12-2003, 06:26 AM	#6
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Ah, see i don't really consider shoulders as a "major" bodypart. It's sorta like the mid-range. Back, chest and legs big. Calves, arms, abs and forearms small. Shoulders mid-way. And since shoulders seem to get hit on pretty much every training session regardless of what part(s) you're doing, i think that it is possible to get the job done after a large bodypart. (or before, if i was to do shoulders before back). I do think a three-day split is a brilliant strategy (push, pull, legs).
	Being held down by The Man

03-12-2003, 06:28 AM	#7
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	But i'm not exactly what you'd call "big" so take that for what it's worth.
	Being held down by The Man

03-12-2003, 06:22 AM	#5
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	Every so often I do chest/back to remind myself....lol Is essence yes....in a purist POV I'd agree with the quote, but see exceptions all of the time! I think it depends at what stage of development you are at, the intensity you use, your genetics...etc. We do Shoulders/chest/back/arms/ next week in one W/O as a precontest depletion (2-3 days out).....and altough I love Pain...I h8 that W/O DP

03-12-2003, 07:35 AM	#8
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	All of my trainees get huge/scuplted shoulders, and since we devote a major W/O towards them, I call them a "Big" bodypart But to each their own...you have excellent points.....and I have fairly decent shoulders..... I think I'll just keep them seperate Just wondering..I consider/hit traps w/shoulders.....would the total muscle w8 of the pecs, out-weigh the shoulders/traps? (in a person w/shoulders/traps of course?) DP

03-12-2003, 08:10 AM	#9
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	I don't understand the question, sorry. I actually do traps at the end of my back workouts. Incidentally, rowing for back and pressing for chest aside, i do no work for shoulders right now, save for 2-3 sets of side laterals. Partially because i had some bother with my right delts posterior head, but also i wasn't too concerned because i've had good results in the past doing nothing for delts. I do think dropping overhead pressing has helped - probably because they were getting a bit overtraining being hit directly or indirectly four days a week.
	Being held down by The Man

03-12-2003, 08:31 AM	#10
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,748 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	hmmm...DP not sure how you can consider shoulders a "major bodypart". Relatively speaking they're quite small to other muscle groups, and they get worked indirectly with all other upper body exercises. I do shoulders and traps on a separate day only because it just fits into my routine this way, but I do not do much volume wise, and for delts I really only isolate the medial head. Anterior and posterior get worked so much via chest and back work.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

03-12-2003, 08:43 AM	#11
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	It's an effort to define big? Length? Size? w8 (w8 of the muscle mass)? Since you have a posterior delt...do you call that back? I call them shoulders...and like I said....I equate/link traps w/shouder's (watch your traps when you work your shoulders if you are lean enough) I have worked them w/back and know many that do, mainly because our shoulder W/O's are so extensive... I'd give the combo of traps/shouders a BIGGER rating over BIG pecs for Size, length, and w8....JMHO (and a good set of traps are thicker than most chests) DP

03-12-2003, 08:58 AM	#12
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Ah, i getcha now. You refer to the delts/traps collectively. Fair enough. And again, i'm not sure what you were asking but i was referring to the rear delt on the right arm. I know what you're referring to with traps during delt workouts, but i see that as stabilisation more than anything. Just like if you watch your biceps during benching or your triceps during bicep curls.
	Being held down by The Man

03-12-2003, 04:48 PM	#15
cheesegrater Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 466	so can i do them both on the same day and expect mass results?
	"fuck it all, and fucking no regrets" James Hetfield Damage Inc.

03-12-2003, 04:54 PM	#16
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,748 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	yes, you can work chest and shoulders on the same day, I recommend that you work chest first though. Military presses and side laterals are my two favorites.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

03-12-2003, 11:42 PM	#17
perfecto dirty but nice Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: land down under your mum Posts: 390 Photos: 5	I found that when i was working out my chest/shoulders on the same day, by the time id finish with my chest and start hitting the shoulders, i would just suffer and not be able to lift at all, hence my lifts never went up and i lost motivation because i felt i wasnt progressing. But i guess they were still geting worked, its just a mental thing...
	"a scientist who works out, your like Indiana Jones"..."I AM LIKE INDIANA JONES" "dont hate me cause im beautiful baby, hate me cause your mother thinks so"

03-13-2003, 07:32 PM	#19
perfecto dirty but nice Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: land down under your mum Posts: 390 Photos: 5	welll thats the routine i have now, what sort of exercises do you do for shoulders/traps?
	"a scientist who works out, your like Indiana Jones"..."I AM LIKE INDIANA JONES" "dont hate me cause im beautiful baby, hate me cause your mother thinks so"

03-13-2003, 10:41 PM	#20
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,748 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	Delts: Smith machine military presses and dumbbell laterals. Traps: barbell shrugs.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

03-14-2003, 08:43 AM	#21
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Why the smith?
	Being held down by The Man

03-14-2003, 08:52 AM	#23
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Cool. I hurt the back of my right delt a few months back and i've never done any overhead or incline pressing since then. I may do some smith inclines today actually. Do you do the rotator cuff exercises?
	Being held down by The Man

03-14-2003, 10:10 AM	#24
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,748 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	yeah, actually I dropped incline presses completely from my work-out, and for around 9 months I dropped military presses as well, I just recently began using military's again on the Smith. for rotator cuffs I do some shoulder rotation exercises to keep them loose/strong, and I ensure that I properly warm-up shoulders before any upper body work-out. So far, no problems!
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System.

03-14-2003, 10:30 AM	#25
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Good good.
	Being held down by The Man

03-14-2003, 10:43 AM	#26
Scotty the Body I'm Dead Sexxxxy!! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 4,970	I like the smith machines that are on a slight angle, they seem much more natural ROM than the 90 deg ones.
	Cool

03-14-2003, 02:41 PM	#27
ectomorph141 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Muskegon Posts: 156	I am not sure of the names, but I know there are 3 muscles in the shoulder. Front, top, and rear. I do a lot of military presses and lateral excersizes but realized I hardly ever work the rear shoulder muscle. What is a good excersize for this. I leave in 15 minutes to do shoulders.