Thread: Leg question to start a shit fight !!

To emphasize the outer sweep I like to do smith squats and regular barbell squats with my legs close together...as for turning in the toes on the leg extension...IMHO...bad idea unless you're looking for problems down the road.....since it's an open-chain movement.

One more thing bud....ditch the leg press unless you do it late in your workout and START SQUATING!!!!!!!!!!!! That is SQUAT if you want legs...and press if you want TWIGS...lmfao...but it's true.

Originally posted by Rissole
Ok here goes.......
I'm hanging to get some good size on my wheels, which i believe is happening with GP's routine
The question is, i feel like i need more 'sweep' in the outer part of my quad (Vastus Lateralis)..... Is there i particular feet postion that will hit that particular quad muscle more than others?? Wide/narrow foot postion on 45*LP, arse to heel squats rather than 90* squat, toes in on leg ext (sorry Prince and DP)
Any help much apprieciated, i'm competing in Sept and im keen for good legs

Thanks guys

You want sweep?! Get a freaking broom! LOL, just playing. Listen my good friend, the shape of your muscle...bicep peak, calf length, outer thigh sweep...is largely determined by genetics. That said, I believe strongly that you can work a specific "area" of a complex muscle and therefore slightly influence its shape.

To work outer quad you need to do all exercises like squats, leg presses, and hacks with a close foot stance. You need to turn your feet in at the top of your leg extension. A very effective technique is to superset toes in ext with close stance compound movements (during shock week).

You can definitely make positive changes in your outer sweep...just be patient and do not expect miracles.

Someone at my gym blew both knees out last summer cause they had their feet turned inwards on the leg press, pushing a heavy weight.

You really gotta work that sweep...

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Someone at my gym blew both knees out last summer cause they had their feet turned inwards on the leg press, pushing a heavy weight.

You really gotta work that sweep...

NOBODY TOLD HIM TO TURN HIS FEET IN DURING LEG PRESSES, HACKS, OR SQUATS...I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND THIS. I SAID TURN YOUR FEET IN AT THE TOP OF A LEG EXTENSION!

Calm down, old man, i didn't even see your post.

I was just passing comment.

Fucks sake.

Old maybe...but f%cking big and getting rock hard! And its not my style to stay calm!

No wonder your hair has fallen out then.


hahahaha....


Joke!

Damn....I wish I knew more about this....last time I checked...the waist was 3" too big in my suit pants, and I couldn't fit my freaking legs in........

So I quess I know "Squat"

Ok....while I have spoken out about how to work ones legs......here's a "position" I have as yet to state.....

We often hear people complain/comment that they can not squat because it hurts their back, or their knees........I often find this a function of biomechanics, bar palcement, leg and toe orietation, and body alignment during an exercise...

One of the most important issues for the knee is "Q" angle.......it is imperative that the knees track in line with the toes....so if you vary your stance (whch I don't recommend to a gr8 degree, more in a second)......toe angle becomes even more critical. ON HACKS, POWER MACHNE SQUATS (all kinds, esp Smith and BB), L/P and SQUATS, the KNEES MUST TRACK in line w/the TOES! JMHO
(This often occurs w/a 10% to 25% flare to the outside)

When squatting...to frequently I see beginner and intermediate lifters attempt "Heals Up", "Close Stance" and other stance variations....simply put...it fucks up their "grove", the power from the hole , the heel drive...and often results in a hip roll or compromised spinal alignment....not to mention undue stress on the body, diverting energy and power form the intended movement. As shoulder width or wider (Taller the wider) stance should be employed until squatting is second nature!

Now, the more accomplish one becomes, the stronger your connective tissue (tendons and ligaments) from repetitive stress.....then at submaximal loads....you can vary the toe alignment (minimally), always carefully .......Stance width, can and should be varied on the Smith, and machines, Hack, Power squat, etc....alway being concerned with hip flexor, glute, and spinal involement, and the above mentioned toe/knee alignment....

Onto the question......As GP stated, with in the above parameters......closer stance on machines will activate more lateral fiber, the outer sweep.....I would never recommend closer than shoulder width on a BB squat unless you either short enough (to maintain intregrity during the positive movement), or very accomplished....and we have already visited L/E's which are the general exception to the toe/knee rule.

I find 1 and 1/4 squats provide a more total leg "hit", as do 4 second pause squats (uncoils the kinectic energy in the muscle, and allows greater recruitment of fiber, there is a post on this)...BUT, the ultimate exercise for frontal quad delvelop in MHO is the front squat......

So consider front squats, 1 and 1/4 squats, 4 second pause squats; Heavy L/E's (toes neutral or slightly in on L/E's only) with quadruple dropsets once exhausted form heavier loads

DP

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Damn....I wish I knew more about this....last time I checked...the waist was 3" too big in my suit pants, and I couldn't fit my freaking legs in........

So I quess I know "Squat"

Ok....while I have spoken out about how to work ones legs......here's a "position" I have as yet to state.....

We often hear people complain/comment that they can not squat because it hurts their back, or their knees........I often find this a function of biomechanics, bar palcement, leg and toe orietation, and body alignment during an exercise...

One of the most important issues for the knee is "Q" angle.......it is imperative that the knees track in line with the toes....so if you vary your stance (whch I don't recommend to a gr8 degree, more in a second)......toe angle becomes even more critical. ON HACKS, POWER MACHNE SQUATS (all kinds, esp Smith and BB), L/P and SQUATS, the KNEES MUST TRACK in line w/the TOES! JMHO
(This often occurs w/a 10% to 25% flare to the outside)

When squatting...to frequently I see beginner and intermediate lifters attempt "Heals Up", "Close Stance" and other stance variations....simply put...it fucks up their "grove", the power from the hole , the heel drive...and often results in a hip roll or compromised spinal alignment....not to mention undue stress on the body, diverting energy and power form the intended movement. As shoulder width or wider (Taller the wider) stance should be employed until squatting is second nature!

Now, the more accomplish one becomes, the stronger your connective tissue (tendons and ligaments) from repetitive stress.....then at submaximal loads....you can vary the toe alignment (minimally), always carefully .......Stance width, can and should be varied on the Smith, and machines, Hack, Power squat, etc....alway being concerned with hip flexor, glute, and spinal involement, and the above mentioned toe/knee alignment....

Onto the question......As GP stated, with in the above parameters......closer stance on machines will activate more lateral fiber, the outer sweep.....I would never recommend closer than shoulder width on a BB squat unless you either short enough (to maintain intregrity during the positive movement), or very accomplished....and we have already visited L/E's which are the general exception to the toe/knee rule.

I find 1 and 1/4 squats provide a more total leg "hit", as do 4 second pause squats (uncoils the kinectic energy in the muscle, and allows greater recruitment of fiber, there is a post on this)...BUT, the ultimate exercise for frontal quad delvelop in MHO is the front squat......

So consider front squats, 1 and 1/4 squats, 4 second pause squats; Heavy L/E's (toes neutral or slightly in on L/E's only) with quadruple dropsets once exhausted form heavier loads

DP

I was going to say the exact same thing, but was just too lazy to type all of that...

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
No wonder your hair has fallen out then.


hahahaha....


Joke!

You never stop with the hair thing! Well, it won't matter soon anyway...I'm about to shave the rest off and go with the "Vin Diesel" look....

Originally posted by gopro
I was going to say the exact same thing, but was just too lazy to type all of that...

Fucking made me late...you get the next one


DP

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Fucking made me late...you get the next one


DP

OK, deal!

I will not even get involved in the debate, do not feel like arguing this again.

All I will say is a sweep on your quads (Vastus Lateralis) is genetic, just as a peak on your biceps is genetic. You either have it or you don't.

You can turn your damn feet any way you want, it will not build a sweep. Squats, leg press and hack squats should always be done with a shoulder width stance and toes pointed slightly outward.

Originally posted by gopro
You never stop with the hair thing! Well, it won't matter soon anyway...I'm about to shave the rest off and go with the "Vin Diesel" look....

Good idea.

Maybe then all those rumours regarding your sexuality will stop.

Originally posted by Prince
I will not even get involved in the debate, do not feel like arguing this again.

All I will say is a sweep on your quads (Vastus Lateralis) is genetic, just as a peak on your biceps is genetic. You either have it or you don't.

You can turn your damn feet any way you want, it will not build a sweep. Squats, leg press and hack squats should always be done with a shoulder width stance and toes pointed slightly outward.

Sorry, your post just got you involved! You just answered in a manner that is VERY UP FOR DEBATE...in fact, I will say flat out that I totally, well not totally, disagree. But lets not debate any further, I don't have the time or inclination

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Good idea.

Maybe then all those rumours regarding your sexuality will stop.

What rumors...I've already admitted that I only date farm animals...hence my interest in you!

Originally posted by gopro
Sorry, your post just got you involved! You just answered in a manner that is VERY UP FOR DEBATE...in fact, I will say flat out that I totally, well not totally, disagree. But lets not debate any further, I don't have the time or inclination

Nope, it's simple anatomy Eric. I could understand you disagreeing though cause you still think that it's possible to cause growth in different regions of the pectorial.

see the tendon attachments here?

Originally posted by Fit Freak


One more thing bud....ditch the leg press unless you do it late in your workout and START SQUATING!!!!!!!!!!!! That is SQUAT if you want legs...and press if you want TWIGS...lmfao...but it's true.

Hey Fit Freak, does that go for women too, press for leanness, squats for bigger muscle?????

Originally posted by Prince
Nope, it's simple anatomy Eric. I could understand you disagreeing though cause you still think that it's possible to cause growth in different regions of the pectorial.

see the tendon attachments here?

Soooooo....Explain to me why I can make my upper pecs sore as hell when I only do incline presses and my mid and lower pec feels nothing afterward? Bottom line, if there wasn't a need for an incline bench, then why the hell was it developed?

Originally posted by katie64
Hey Fit Freak, does that go for women too, press for leanness, squats for bigger muscle?????

Don't know about leanness, but squats are king for mass!!

Originally posted by katie64
Hey Fit Freak, does that go for women too, press for leanness, squats for bigger muscle?????

No exercise is for "leanness".

Originally posted by Rob_NC
Soooooo....Explain to me why I can make my upper pecs sore as hell when I only do incline presses and my mid and lower pec feels nothing afterward? Bottom line, if there wasn't a need for an incline bench, then why the hell was it developed?

Okay, listen very carefully.

It makes no difference where in a muscle you feel sore, a single muscle (e.g. pectorial major) will grow as a whole. You cannot make a single muscle grow in different areas, if you could that would mean it's possible to shape a muscle, and that's impossible.

I discussed this in another thread in more detail...but simply put, working your pecs on incline, flat and decline are all going to increase growth in that muscle (equally). The point of using the different angles is that different motor units will be activated within the muscle (either more of them or different areas) and cause further growth. If all you did was flat bench your "upper", "lower" and "middle" pec would still grow equally, but by hitting the muscle at different angles you can cause further growth than if you continued to use only one angle.

Anyone (you, gopro, DP) can argue this, but if they disagree, they're wrong. Period.

Now, do not confuse the pectorial with a muscle group like deltoids, someone else did that in another thread.

I will also argue this of the calves and the quads, not because they're a single muscle, they're not, but because their tendon attachments are in almost the exact same spot. In fact for calves both heads of the Gastronemius attach to the same tendon, Achilles tendon.

here is the thread: Calf ?

Originally posted by Prince
Okay, listen very carefully.

It makes no difference where in a muscle you feel sore, a single muscle (e.g. pectorial major) will grow as a whole. You cannot make a single muscle grow in different areas, if you could that would mean it's possible to shape a muscle, and that's impossible.

I discussed this in another thread in more detail...but simply put, working your pecs on incline, flat and decline are all going to increase growth in that muscle (equally). The point of using the different angles is that different motor units will be activated within the muscle (either more of them or different areas) and cause further growth. If all you did was flat bench your "upper", "lower" and "middle" pec would still grow equally, but by hitting the muscle at different angles you can cause further growth than if you continued to use only one angle.

Anyone (you, gopro, DP) can argue this, but if they disagree, they're wrong. Period.

Now, do not confuse the pectorial with a muscle group like deltoids, someone else did that in another thread.

I will also argue this of the calves and the quads, not because they're a single muscle, they're not, but because their tendon attachments are in almost the exact same spot. In fact for calves both heads of the Gastronemius attach to the same tendon, Achilles tendon.

here is the thread: Calf ?

IF what you say is true, then why are the quads, pecs, calves, tris, bis etc. multi-muscle groups?

You guys are a riot !!
Yes FF i do squat always!! Thanks for the input (now where's that broom??)
Argue away

Originally posted by Rob_NC
Bottom line, if there wasn't a need for an incline bench, then why the hell was it developed?

Oh! Oh! Oh!

*Raises arm sharply*

I know this.

Back in the day, i think it was people working under Arthur Jones (but not totally sure, it may have been before his time), constructed a machine that began as a bench press, but gradually inclined bit-by-bit into an overhead press. The idea was to try and get a trainee to be able to overhead press the same that they bench pressed.

And the incline bench press evolved.

Originally posted by Rob_NC
IF what you say is true, then why are the quads, pecs, calves, tris, bis etc. multi-muscle groups?

It depends on which muscle group you're talking about.

In some cases the different heads have slightly different functions. In the case of the tricep it's primary function is to straighten the arm, however it's secondary function is fulfilled only by the Long head of the muscle, which is to bring the arm down towards the body (adduction).

In other cases the different heads, such as the Gastronemius, attach to the same tendon (Achilles), but they originate from to separate attachment sites. In this case the purpose of two heads has to do with how the origination points attach to either side of the humerous. This does not mean that you can stress the head separately by changing toe positions though.

Then you have muscle groups like the deltoids, where there are distinct differences in their function. All three Deltoid heads attach to the humerus. However, the Anterior and Lateral heads originate on the collar bone, while the Posterior head originates on the scapula. Thus, the Anterior head raises it away to the front, the Lateral head up and away to the side and the Posterior head away to the rear.

As far as the pectorials, there is a pec minor that is underneath the pec major, but it's not visible. It's function is to move the humerus forward in the shoulder socket. However, as far as your chest development, and what can be seen in regards to "upper", "middle" and "lower", this is all the pec major, which is a single muscle.

Originally posted by Prince
No exercise is for "leanness".

Ok, leanness isn't the right word, I want to keep working my quads, hams, calves but I don't want to build up more muscle, my legs are very strong, I know about fat loss, that's not what I'm asking, in order to keep working that area without building mass muscle or more of it, should I keep w8 low, more reps.....again I want to keep working them, I love leg day...............Is this a stupid question LOL, I should probably already know this answer, huh?

Low reps and heavy weight will build muscle. High reps and low weight will generally tone muscle.