Possible to gain and lose at the same time?

Mariner · 06-16-2003, 12:18 AM

Hello, I'm looking for tips to help in gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.

I am currently following a Body For Life like program and have had great results over the past 6 weeks. However, I feel the need to increase my workouts to push more iron and gain more muscle.

Will I be able to cut and bulk at the same time? Or, if my primary goal is to lose fat should I simply concentrate on cutting the fat now and clean bulking later once I've reached a decent body fat percentage?

I can include pics if that would help. Thanks for the advice!

gr81 · 06-16-2003, 01:45 AM

no it isn't possible, focus on one at a time

Fit Freak · 06-16-2003, 05:14 AM

For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:

1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)

2) You're a beginner lifter

After that I would say it's not going to happen

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 05:34 AM

I disagree. I believe with the proper diet you can build muscle while cutting. I do it all the time!

Yes the progress is very slow compared to building muscle while bulking but regardless, it is possible IMO and my experience.

I'm pretty much guessing here, but I assume because you are currently on the BFL program that you are a beginner. As Fit Freak said because you are a beginner you will for sure be able to cut and gain muscle at the same time.

You may want to think about posting your diet.

tjwes · 06-16-2003, 06:33 AM

I agree with Jodi. It`s all about changing body composition.You can`t bulk up and cut up simultaneously ,but you can build muscle while losing fat at the same time.A good diet and time is what it takes.Have you ever seen before and after pics of people who weighed 200 lbs. of fat then AFTER still weighed 200 lbs. but were a lot harder? I know it`s not a good example but it can happen if you are patient.

**dg806** · 06-16-2003, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fit Freak
For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:

1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)

2) You're a beginner lifter

After that I would say it's not going to happen

I agree 100% with this!

**Mudge** · 06-16-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gr81
no it isn't possible, focus on one at a time

I read T-Mag now and again, and I have no idea where you get the idea that this is impossible.

Simply working out can help the metabolism itself, fix up the diet, as well as the muscle itself needing its own calories for sustaining itself. Overall though unless your genetically gifted, your going to have to live with less progress each way. This is why people bulk, or cut, generally speaking doing both at the same time is like trying to step forwards and backwards at the same time. Its possible but you have to live with slower progress, especially if natural.

It is not however impossible. Like Fit Freak eluded to however, unless you get things right you may just end up frustrated.

Mariner · 06-16-2003, 10:52 AM

Thanks for the replies. I’d like to get a concrete definition on what is considered a “Beginner Lifter”. And, what qualifies as an intermediate and advanced lifter?

For reference, I have lifted on and off since high school (hmm, many years ago…). I know all but the most obscure exercizes and I always execute with good form. I don’t have the luxury of a spotter so when I lift to failure it’s on a machine. I’m around 14% bodyfat as measured by that nifty electro-gizmo at the gym but I’d like to get to around 7-8%. My goal in life is to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club (heh, just kidding).

As for the original topic, what kind of body fat percentage are we talking about when we are trying to gain muscle?

**Mudge** · 06-16-2003, 11:35 AM

Concrete definition, thats a tough one, because it depends what circles you travel in. To some an "advanced lifter" is NPC level or above, intermediate say 19" arms or better. Again it depends who you ask.

Twin Peak · 06-16-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fit Freak
For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat:

1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS)

2) You're a beginner lifter

After that I would say it's not going to happen

I'd respectfully like to add a third option. If you can figure out how to send the "fed" signal to the body, without the accompanying calories, you could accomplish both at the same time.

A fourth would be through using prohormones, unless that falls under category (1) depending on your views.

Skib · 06-16-2003, 11:56 AM

i'm no expert or anything but i don't see how it's not possible unless you have no fat to really lose...

if you're eating properly and exercising, will your body not shed the fat from exercise and use the nutrients you're giving it to build muscle?

cardio is usually essential for burning fat, but does a lot of muscle get burned as well?

Robboe · 06-16-2003, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
I'd respectfully like to add a third option. If you can figure out how to send the "fed" signal to the body, without the accompanying calories, you could accomplish both at the same time.

A fourth would be through using prohormones, unless that falls under category (1) depending on your views.

Another: if you're really fat.

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 12:05 PM

I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit. How do you think I built muscle and how do you think most women do it??? I never did any bulk until this past winter and I had plenty of muscle before then and I was in a caloric defict for 9 months prior. I only bulked for 4 weeks too. I've been in a caloric defict for 6 months and my w8's and strength are increasing still. Sure its definately alot slower process than when I was bulking but its still happening!!

Oh and I don't use any AAS or prohormones.

Twin Peak · 06-16-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jodi
I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit. How do you think I built muscle and how do you think most women do it??? I never did any bulk until this past winter and I had plenty of muscle before then and I was in a caloric defict for 9 months prior. I only bulked for 4 weeks too. I've been in a caloric defict for 6 months and my w8's and strength are increasing still. Sure its definately alot slower process than when I was bulking but its still happening!!

Oh and I don't use any AAS or prohormones.

Its perspective, not an impossibility.

If, in the course of a year, you can bulk and add say 15 pounds of LBM, and then Cut and Lose 15 pounds of fat, are you not better off than trying to do both, and only end up gaining 10 pounds of muscle and losing 10 pounds of fat?

As I always say: CONTEXT.

Twin Peak · 06-16-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Another: if you're really fat.

I'd put this in the beginner category, unless you are talking of an overfat powerlifter, in which case he will have a tough time adding muscle anyway.

Robboe · 06-16-2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jodi
I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit.

Jodi, do you perform bi-weekly carb ups?

Robboe · 06-16-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Twin Peak
I'd put this in the beginner category, unless you are talking of an overfat powerlifter, in which case he will have a tough time adding muscle anyway.

Well someone who's been training for 2-3 years but who is also in the 20%+ bodyfat region most likely has a shit load of triglycerides floating around their blood system, and usually at this bf (unless having a genetic disorder), the fat cells are more than happy to let go of some fat. During this, the body doesn't sense that calories are being restricted and muscle can continue to be gained.

it may not be a hugely significant muscle gain and fat loss, but it's certainly a possibility.

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 12:32 PM

TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks.

TP - I hate bulking thats why! I tried it for 4 weeks and I mentally could not handle it. I felt fat all the time!

So thats why I prefer this way. Besides, I don't care if I put on another ounce of muscle. I'm happy and pleased with the amount I now have. Now I have to shed the rest of the fat.

Twin Peak · 06-16-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jodi
TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks.

TP - I hate bulking thats why! I tried it for 4 weeks and I mentally could not handle it. I felt fat all the time!

So thats why I prefer this way. Besides, I don't care if I put on another ounce of muscle. I'm happy and pleased with the amount I now have. Now I have to shed the rest of the fat.

That is just a matter of personal goals.

But except with notable exceptions listed above, if the goal is to gain as much muscle as possible, and lose as much fat as possible, the quickest road is a series of hypo and hyper caloric stints. Now, if you have followed my journal, you know that how I currently bulk and cut is very different from what most do.

Robboe · 06-16-2003, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jodi
TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks.

Jodi, you realise that the days of carb loads *tend* to knock you above calorie maintenance and thus out of deficit. Muscle can be built in surplus.

Do tell what your other plans involve.

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 01:35 PM

TCD - I don't carb load, I do a carb-up and even with the amount of carbs on my final meal, it still does not put me above caloric maitenance.

Most of the other plans that I follow are 50/30/20 or 50/25/25 but they are always below maintenance.
Another thing, most know that I really worked hard on my legs this past year. Well to prove that I can gain muscle during a deficit, I reached my heaviest w8 of squatting and pressing during a deficit. When I reached my personal best I was 8 weeks into a cut and that meal plan was 50%P 30%F 20%C.

**dg806** · 06-16-2003, 01:38 PM

Look at any top level pro, NPC, IFBB or whichever? The only way they add muscle, men or women, is to increase calories and protein on bulk. Then it is usually 8 to 12 week diet right before contest. When you get that big, it takes alot just to maintain the muscle you have. If you stay in calorie deficit, you will loose muscle. No way around it!

Twin Peak · 06-16-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jodi
Well to prove that I can gain muscle during a deficit, I reached my heaviest w8 of squatting and pressing during a deficit. When I reached my personal best I was 8 weeks into a cut and that meal plan was 50%P 30%F 20%C.

I am not trying to gang up on you here, but gaining strength and gaining muscle are not the same thing. Indeed, I will contend that it is far easier to gain strength while hypocaloric then it is to gain muscle.

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 01:51 PM

I'm positive it was muscle gain TP seeing my legs got 2" bigger with no fat gain.

Now I'm trying to shrink the muscle

**Mudge** · 06-16-2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dg806
Look at any top level pro, NPC, IFBB or whichever? The only way they add muscle, men or women, is to increase calories and protein on bulk.

Well

we can easily argue, that its true for them because they are way outside of the range of a natural person. So for them to maintain thier size they need both gear, and high calories - gear works best on high caloric intake diets.

Gearhead bulking is not something hardly anyone in here does, pizza, ice cream, milk is all NORMAL and I dont want to hear otherwise because its the truth. When these guys are going from 280 to 300+, they aren't just eating chicken and rice.

So when they start switching to items for show prep so that they dont hold water, they are inevitably going to lose size on the low calorie diets coupled with different compounds being used for contest prep since they can't afford to come in full of bloat.

Anyone is eventually going to hit some kind of wall when trying to continue to gain beef on a caloric restriction, but I still believe absolutely that both are possible at the same time. Of course like noted the experience level, fat levels and so on are going to determine just how much of a compromised situation it is.

DaMayor · 06-16-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jodi
Now I'm trying to shrink the muscle

Why?

**dg806** · 06-16-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Well

we can easily argue, that its true for them because they are way outside of the range of a natural person. So for them to maintain thier size they need both gear, and high calories - gear works best on high caloric intake diets.

Gearhead bulking is not something hardly anyone in here does, pizza, ice cream, milk is all NORMAL and I dont want to hear otherwise because its the truth. When these guys are going from 280 to 300+, they aren't just eating chicken and rice.

So when they start switching to items for show prep so that they dont hold water, they are inevitably going to lose size on the low calorie diets coupled with different compounds being used for contest prep since they can't afford to come in full of bloat.

Anyone is eventually going to hit some kind of wall when trying to continue to gain beef on a caloric restriction, but I still believe absolutely that both are possible at the same time. Of course like noted the experience level, fat levels and so on are going to determine just how much of a compromised situation it is.

True. Lots of factors involved! And TP, I was going to post the same statement about strength and size!

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaMayor
Why?

Because I can't get my jeans over my legs.

I had to go from a size 1 to a size 3 with a belt to hold them up just to fit my legs.

**Mudge** · 06-16-2003, 02:00 PM

I know the feeling, I'm going to have to shop at Big and Tall now. I guess for you that means Pretty and Plump

I'm sure people will stare wondering what your doing in there.

**calalily1972** · 06-16-2003, 02:01 PM

OMG! I hardly call a size 3 Plump!!!

06-16-2003, 12:18 AM	#1
Mariner GB32~93 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere near the sea Posts: 9	Possible to gain and lose at the same time? Hello, I'm looking for tips to help in gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. I am currently following a Body For Life like program and have had great results over the past 6 weeks. However, I feel the need to increase my workouts to push more iron and gain more muscle. Will I be able to cut and bulk at the same time? Or, if my primary goal is to lose fat should I simply concentrate on cutting the fat now and clean bulking later once I've reached a decent body fat percentage? I can include pics if that would help. Thanks for the advice!

06-16-2003, 05:14 AM	#3
Fit Freak Fit Freak Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Halifax Posts: 1,797 Photos: 6	For the most part the are 2 cases where it's possible to gain muscle while losing fat: 1) You're using anabolic steroids (AAS) 2) You're a beginner lifter After that I would say it's not going to happen Searching for the right balance...

06-16-2003, 06:33 AM	#5
tjwes "You Can`t Flex Fat" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 456 Photos: 8	I agree with Jodi. It`s all about changing body composition.You can`t bulk up and cut up simultaneously ,but you can build muscle while losing fat at the same time.A good diet and time is what it takes.Have you ever seen before and after pics of people who weighed 200 lbs. of fat then AFTER still weighed 200 lbs. but were a lot harder? I know it`s not a good example but it can happen if you are patient. My Website: http://www.geocities.com/timbuktuweights/ My Forum: http://timwescott.proboards18.com/index.cgi

06-16-2003, 11:35 AM	#9
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,477 Photos: 1	Concrete definition, thats a tough one, because it depends what circles you travel in. To some an "advanced lifter" is NPC level or above, intermediate say 19" arms or better. Again it depends who you ask. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

06-16-2003, 01:38 PM	#22
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 18,197	Look at any top level pro, NPC, IFBB or whichever? The only way they add muscle, men or women, is to increase calories and protein on bulk. Then it is usually 8 to 12 week diet right before contest. When you get that big, it takes alot just to maintain the muscle you have. If you stay in calorie deficit, you will loose muscle. No way around it! 1-Andro Rx Pro-hormone

06-16-2003, 01:45 AM	#2
gr81 You Lack Intensity!!!! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Just below our civil disguise Posts: 6,378 Photos: 10	no it isn't possible, focus on one at a time

06-16-2003, 05:34 AM	#4
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	I disagree. I believe with the proper diet you can build muscle while cutting. I do it all the time! Yes the progress is very slow compared to building muscle while bulking but regardless, it is possible IMO and my experience. I'm pretty much guessing here, but I assume because you are currently on the BFL program that you are a beginner. As Fit Freak said because you are a beginner you will for sure be able to cut and gain muscle at the same time. You may want to think about posting your diet.

06-16-2003, 10:52 AM	#8
Mariner GB32~93 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Somewhere near the sea Posts: 9	Thanks for the replies. I’d like to get a concrete definition on what is considered a “Beginner Lifter”. And, what qualifies as an intermediate and advanced lifter? For reference, I have lifted on and off since high school (hmm, many years ago…). I know all but the most obscure exercizes and I always execute with good form. I don’t have the luxury of a spotter so when I lift to failure it’s on a machine. I’m around 14% bodyfat as measured by that nifty electro-gizmo at the gym but I’d like to get to around 7-8%. My goal in life is to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club (heh, just kidding). As for the original topic, what kind of body fat percentage are we talking about when we are trying to gain muscle?

06-16-2003, 11:56 AM	#11
Skib Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 816 Photos: 1	i'm no expert or anything but i don't see how it's not possible unless you have no fat to really lose... if you're eating properly and exercising, will your body not shed the fat from exercise and use the nutrients you're giving it to build muscle? cardio is usually essential for burning fat, but does a lot of muscle get burned as well?

06-16-2003, 12:05 PM	#13
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	I don't understand how you guys can deny the fact that one can put muscle on during a caloric deficit. How do you think I built muscle and how do you think most women do it??? I never did any bulk until this past winter and I had plenty of muscle before then and I was in a caloric defict for 9 months prior. I only bulked for 4 weeks too. I've been in a caloric defict for 6 months and my w8's and strength are increasing still. Sure its definately alot slower process than when I was bulking but its still happening!! Oh and I don't use any AAS or prohormones.

06-16-2003, 12:32 PM	#18
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	TCD - Only on this particular plan but I change my plan every 4-6 weeks. TP - I hate bulking thats why! I tried it for 4 weeks and I mentally could not handle it. I felt fat all the time! So thats why I prefer this way. Besides, I don't care if I put on another ounce of muscle. I'm happy and pleased with the amount I now have. Now I have to shed the rest of the fat.

06-16-2003, 01:35 PM	#21
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	TCD - I don't carb load, I do a carb-up and even with the amount of carbs on my final meal, it still does not put me above caloric maitenance. Most of the other plans that I follow are 50/30/20 or 50/25/25 but they are always below maintenance. Another thing, most know that I really worked hard on my legs this past year. Well to prove that I can gain muscle during a deficit, I reached my heaviest w8 of squatting and pressing during a deficit. When I reached my personal best I was 8 weeks into a cut and that meal plan was 50%P 30%F 20%C.

06-16-2003, 01:51 PM	#24
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	I'm positive it was muscle gain TP seeing my legs got 2" bigger with no fat gain. Now I'm trying to shrink the muscle

06-16-2003, 02:00 PM	#29
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,477 Photos: 1	I know the feeling, I'm going to have to shop at Big and Tall now. I guess for you that means Pretty and Plump I'm sure people will stare wondering what your doing in there. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

06-16-2003, 02:01 PM	#30
calalily1972 Moderator Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 22,438 Photos: 1	OMG! I hardly call a size 3 Plump!!!

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