Is going to failure really necessary?

rhancill · 06-27-2003, 05:01 AM

I work out to failure every workout, usually between the 4-8 rep range. Many people have said that its not necessary every workout, however, I think going to failure gives the best gains.

Say I barbell curl 80lbs for 6 reps to failure. My first set I can just about manage it. My 3rd set I get to 5 reps. On the 3rd set Im struggling to hit the 4th rep, but manage it. Do this process for a couple of weeks, then on the 4th week I can add another 5 lbs on it.

What im trying to say is I think its effective for me to work to failure as its easier for me to judge my progress.

What do you guys think, and is there any scientific research saying the going to failure every time is good/bad?

**dg806** · 06-27-2003, 08:12 AM

Looks more like a power lifting routine. I would stay with 8-10 reps for all three sets. I think you will get better growth. Also going heavy all the time will play havic on your joints!

rhancill · 06-27-2003, 08:53 AM

Thanks for the reply,

Im currently using the Max-OT routine, which says I should be between 4-6 reps. If I can't do 4 reps, the weight is too heavy and if I can do more than 6 reps its too light.

Using Max-OT Im supposed to go to failure every set. I have been told by some people not to do this!

Do you think this is more of a powerlifting routine?

rhancill · 06-27-2003, 08:57 AM

If your interested in Max OT and the principles click this link

Max-OT

You will need to register, but its a really good read and covers all aspects of bodybuilding.

**dg806** · 06-27-2003, 09:01 AM

I'm not really familair with Max ot but usually powerlifters(people wanting to gain strength) do 4-6 reps. BB's normally fall into the 8-10 rep range. Read these.........
http://ironmagazine.com/modules.php?...article&sid=43
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...threadid=18765 (Who knows about fast/slow twich fibers)

**Prince** · 06-27-2003, 09:07 AM

It depends on the individual IMO. Some will do better in the lower rep range 4-6, others in higher rep ranges 8-12, main factor is the fiber type make-up of each individual. Either way as a "bodybuilder" you should incorporate all rep ranges, from 4-12, not necessarily each work-out, but rather in mesocycles. Use the MAX-OT for 4-6 week, stay in that low rep range, see how it works for you. No matter if it works or not, after 4-6 weeks switch to a higher rep range cycle, e.g. 6-8 reps.

rhancill · 06-27-2003, 09:08 AM

An exerpt from the Max OT website

What is "Positive-Failure"?

Positive failure is when a set is performed to the positive limit of muscle exhaustion. In other words, you are done with a set when you are no longer able to complete a rep on your own. This positive-failure should occur between the fourth and sixth rep. Max-OT does not employ forced reps beyond maybe partial help on the last rep of a set.

Contrary to what most have been led to believe, forced reps are counter productive to building muscle. They artificially fatigue the muscle, deplete muscle energy stores, and produce non-progressive overload just to name a few.

How many times have you seen people in the gym training and one guy's spotting another and yelling in his face to do two more reps when he really should have stopped two reps ago. Do not do forced reps.

4 to 6 Reps

This is the heart of Max-OT. You will do 4 to 6 reps on virtually all lifts. There will be some lifts that you will do a little more reps on, but only a few. The 4 to 6 rep range is important and critical to success of Max-OT. We will go deeper into the understanding of this further in the course, but for right now you need to ingrain this "4 to 6 reps" into your mind.

What is meant by 4 to 6?

When I say to do between 4 and 6 reps, this means that you will use a weight that is light enough to allow you to get at least 4 reps, but is also heavy enough to where you cannot do any more than 6 reps. If you can't do 4 reps, then the weight is too heavy. If you can do more than 6 reps, then the weight is too light.

This is important and is critical component of Max-OT. 4 to 6 reps is the "ideal" rep scheme for building muscle. It allows maximum muscle fiber overload and maximum muscle fiber recruitment.

Intensity

A big advantage (aside from the physiological benefits) is that it's much easier to mentally focus your energy on a set of 4 to 6 reps than it is on a set of 10 to 12 reps. Knowing that your set will be short and intense will allow you to generate maximum mental intensity, maximum muscle contraction, and maximum muscular force. Max-OT, in itself, is a more productive muscle building approach that literally acts synergistically with each technique, component, and principle to exponentially accelerate your results.

Once you understand that heavy weight is the most influential stimulus for muscle growth, you will continue to strive for greater overload. You will continue to get bigger and stronger in less time.

**dg806** · 06-27-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
main factor is the fiber type make-up of each individual.

That is why I posted your article!

rhancill · 06-27-2003, 09:14 AM

OK, forget about reps for a while,

Does going to failure work? How so? Evidence of this? Any studies?

**dg806** · 06-27-2003, 09:39 AM

Work for what?? What is the goal?

rhancill · 06-27-2003, 09:46 AM

OK ill put it like this:

Is there an advantage of going to failure rather than not going to failure in order to cause hypertrophy?

Is going to failure the most efficient way to achieve muscle growth?

bludevil · 06-27-2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhancill
Is going to failure the most efficient way to achieve muscle growth?

I don't know about muscle growth, but going to failure is in my opinion the most efficient way to achieve muscle strength.

**Prince** · 06-27-2003, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhancill
OK ill put it like this:

Is there an advantage of going to failure rather than not going to failure in order to cause hypertrophy?

Is going to failure the most efficient way to achieve muscle growth?

No, going to failure is not necessary for hypertrophy.

Most efficient? Hmmm...not sure how to answer this. The thing you have to understand is that hypetrophy is adaption to stress, and there are many forms of stress that can be placed upon a muscle. Going to failure is only one method, there are many. Going to failure every 2-3 work-outs is a better idea, but going to failure every work-out will lead to a state of overtraining.

FortifiedIron · 06-27-2003, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhancill
OK ill put it like this:

Is there an advantage of going to failure rather than not going to failure in order to cause hypertrophy?

Is going to failure the most efficient way to achieve muscle growth?

The only advantage failure has in weightraining is for causing overtraining and serious CNS problems.

NOPE! I see so many people doing one set to failure routines, injuying themselve and leaving them hopless. From time to time failure on a set will not kill you, but dont over do it or it will kill what little gains you've had and leave you out for awhile.

Kc

MeanCuts · 06-27-2003, 06:32 PM

I've never gotten hurt going to failure and none of my workout partners have either(that I know of) so I don't think going to failure is that dangerous

FortifiedIron · 06-28-2003, 02:16 PM

Ask Dorian Yates what training to failure will do to you. It almost ruined his career. As far as you dont think its dangerous, I have literally a ton of quotes by people that are coming up in my next article explaining the injury's they substaned during HIT training and training to failure period.

Kc

MeanCuts · 06-28-2003, 03:18 PM

That's amazing since I know quit a few people who workout and injuries are rare in general.I think certian exercises are more dangerous than others when training to failure(squats,curls) but I still think it's safe.

Snake_Eyes · 06-29-2003, 11:48 AM

I think its fine if used in context.

06-27-2003, 05:01 AM	#1
rhancill Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 19	Is going to failure really necessary? I work out to failure every workout, usually between the 4-8 rep range. Many people have said that its not necessary every workout, however, I think going to failure gives the best gains. Say I barbell curl 80lbs for 6 reps to failure. My first set I can just about manage it. My 3rd set I get to 5 reps. On the 3rd set Im struggling to hit the 4th rep, but manage it. Do this process for a couple of weeks, then on the 4th week I can add another 5 lbs on it. What im trying to say is I think its effective for me to work to failure as its easier for me to judge my progress. What do you guys think, and is there any scientific research saying the going to failure every time is good/bad? Last edited by rhancill : 06-27-2003 at 05:55 AM.

06-27-2003, 08:12 AM	#2
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,158	Looks more like a power lifting routine. I would stay with 8-10 reps for all three sets. I think you will get better growth. Also going heavy all the time will play havic on your joints!
	www.sbmuscle.com

06-27-2003, 09:01 AM	#5
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,158	I'm not really familair with Max ot but usually powerlifters(people wanting to gain strength) do 4-6 reps. BB's normally fall into the 8-10 rep range. Read these......... http://ironmagazine.com/modules.php?...article&sid=43 http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...threadid=18765 (Who knows about fast/slow twich fibers)
	www.sbmuscle.com

06-27-2003, 09:07 AM	#6
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,520 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	It depends on the individual IMO. Some will do better in the lower rep range 4-6, others in higher rep ranges 8-12, main factor is the fiber type make-up of each individual. Either way as a "bodybuilder" you should incorporate all rep ranges, from 4-12, not necessarily each work-out, but rather in mesocycles. Use the MAX-OT for 4-6 week, stay in that low rep range, see how it works for you. No matter if it works or not, after 4-6 weeks switch to a higher rep range cycle, e.g. 6-8 reps.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips!

06-27-2003, 09:39 AM	#10
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,158	Work for what?? What is the goal?
	www.sbmuscle.com

06-27-2003, 08:53 AM	#3
rhancill Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 19	Thanks for the reply, Im currently using the Max-OT routine, which says I should be between 4-6 reps. If I can't do 4 reps, the weight is too heavy and if I can do more than 6 reps its too light. Using Max-OT Im supposed to go to failure every set. I have been told by some people not to do this! Do you think this is more of a powerlifting routine?

06-27-2003, 08:57 AM	#4
rhancill Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 19	If your interested in Max OT and the principles click this link Max-OT You will need to register, but its a really good read and covers all aspects of bodybuilding.

06-27-2003, 09:08 AM	#7
rhancill Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 19	An exerpt from the Max OT website What is "Positive-Failure"? Positive failure is when a set is performed to the positive limit of muscle exhaustion. In other words, you are done with a set when you are no longer able to complete a rep on your own. This positive-failure should occur between the fourth and sixth rep. Max-OT does not employ forced reps beyond maybe partial help on the last rep of a set. Contrary to what most have been led to believe, forced reps are counter productive to building muscle. They artificially fatigue the muscle, deplete muscle energy stores, and produce non-progressive overload just to name a few. How many times have you seen people in the gym training and one guy's spotting another and yelling in his face to do two more reps when he really should have stopped two reps ago. Do not do forced reps. 4 to 6 Reps This is the heart of Max-OT. You will do 4 to 6 reps on virtually all lifts. There will be some lifts that you will do a little more reps on, but only a few. The 4 to 6 rep range is important and critical to success of Max-OT. We will go deeper into the understanding of this further in the course, but for right now you need to ingrain this "4 to 6 reps" into your mind. What is meant by 4 to 6? When I say to do between 4 and 6 reps, this means that you will use a weight that is light enough to allow you to get at least 4 reps, but is also heavy enough to where you cannot do any more than 6 reps. If you can't do 4 reps, then the weight is too heavy. If you can do more than 6 reps, then the weight is too light. This is important and is critical component of Max-OT. 4 to 6 reps is the "ideal" rep scheme for building muscle. It allows maximum muscle fiber overload and maximum muscle fiber recruitment. Intensity A big advantage (aside from the physiological benefits) is that it's much easier to mentally focus your energy on a set of 4 to 6 reps than it is on a set of 10 to 12 reps. Knowing that your set will be short and intense will allow you to generate maximum mental intensity, maximum muscle contraction, and maximum muscular force. Max-OT, in itself, is a more productive muscle building approach that literally acts synergistically with each technique, component, and principle to exponentially accelerate your results. Once you understand that heavy weight is the most influential stimulus for muscle growth, you will continue to strive for greater overload. You will continue to get bigger and stronger in less time.

06-27-2003, 09:14 AM	#9
rhancill Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 19	OK, forget about reps for a while, Does going to failure work? How so? Evidence of this? Any studies?

06-27-2003, 09:46 AM	#11
rhancill Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 19	OK ill put it like this: Is there an advantage of going to failure rather than not going to failure in order to cause hypertrophy? Is going to failure the most efficient way to achieve muscle growth?

06-27-2003, 06:32 PM	#15
MeanCuts Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 473	I've never gotten hurt going to failure and none of my workout partners have either(that I know of) so I don't think going to failure is that dangerous

06-28-2003, 02:16 PM	#16
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	Ask Dorian Yates what training to failure will do to you. It almost ruined his career. As far as you dont think its dangerous, I have literally a ton of quotes by people that are coming up in my next article explaining the injury's they substaned during HIT training and training to failure period. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

06-28-2003, 03:18 PM	#17
MeanCuts Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 473	That's amazing since I know quit a few people who workout and injuries are rare in general.I think certian exercises are more dangerous than others when training to failure(squats,curls) but I still think it's safe.

06-29-2003, 11:48 AM	#18
Snake_Eyes Real American Hero Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 221	I think its fine if used in context.

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