Squats with smith machine

Jvette73 · 08-03-2003, 07:16 PM

When I do squats with my smith machine I usually dip all the way down. This limits the amount of weight I can handle. I notice that if I dip only half way or so I can handle twice the weight. Should I be doing sets of each? Full dips with lower weight and then half dips with the increased weight? After squats I follow with sets of quad extensions and then leg curls followed by calf raises.

**Prince** · 08-03-2003, 07:18 PM

my advice, stop doing squats on the Smith machine, it's dangerous.

do free weight barbell squats only.

MeanCuts · 08-03-2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
my advice, stop doing squats on the Smith machine, it's dangerous.

do free weight barbell squats only.

Why are squats on a smith machine more dangerous than free weight barbell squats? I always thought the smith machine was safer.

Jvette73 · 08-03-2003, 07:22 PM

Hmm..its interesting that you mention that. I feel much safer on the smith. Can always just lock out if I fail. I work out alone and have no spotter or squat cage. Before I got the smith I would do squats off the back of my TDS mega bench with the uprights raised. Now that was hairy and dangerous. why is the smith dangerous for squats?

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 07:24 PM

i have to respectfully disagree here Prince..the Smith machine is very safe because it has stoppers which you can adjust to use as "spotters" Second, you don't have to worry about balancing the weight.This is especially important when the weight starts to get really heavy. Oh yeah, NEVER GO ALL THE WAY DOWN ON SQUATS Jvette73! Only go halfway so your quads are parallel to the ground.Going all the way down risks back injury and can induce a wide number of other problems.

**Prince** · 08-03-2003, 07:32 PM

You guys are missing the entire point of why it's unsafe..

I do not feel like re-typing any answers, so I will use P-funk's answer to this from a previous thread that sums it up pretty well!

Quote:

The problem with a smith machine squat is not so much that you are taking pressure off the quads because you aren' really. The final 10-15% of the movement is still knee extension. The real problem is that you are not efficiently driving through your center of gravity.

When you are performing a real barbell squat you are squating down in such away that allows you to drive straight through your center of gravity. Think if there were a rod running straight from your spine to the ground, it would move in a diagonal fashion with your spine as you squat down. This makes the exercise more functional, increases your balance and strengthens your stabalizing muscles.

When you are performing a smith squat all of those things above go completely out the window. First you are pushing against a fixed bar, which will not improve your balance and coordination. Also, because it is a fixed bar you are doing nothing for your stabilizing musculature. And the biggest difference between barbell and smith sqauts is that in a smith squat you are displacing your center of gravity. You center of gravity is running straight down your spine when you are standing upright. Then when you lean back into the smith bar and keep your feet forward your center of gravity stays up in front of you as your spine and upper body move backwards to the bar. Now you are forced to drive through a false center of gravity which lies infront of your bodies core.

Now if you did smith squats only and never did a barbell squat how well do you think you could efficiently lift things using your bodies natural center of gravity, not only in the gym but in real life? See my point.....it is not functional at all. When do you ever pick things up by sitting back like you do during a smith squat?? Never...you would fall over, right? Also since you are not strengthening your core musculature with the smith squat you are more likely to injure yourself trying to pick something up.

My advice....lay off the smith machine. Grab a barbell and do real squats and your entire body will benefit.

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 07:39 PM

bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith. Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact. Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact. Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy. Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.

Jvette73 · 08-03-2003, 07:46 PM

Cant one change the center of gravity on the push by simply changing your foot position. My smith is not angled as some are. Its line of upward movement is vertical. Sure I can place my feet forward and that would put the line of gravity behind me. Move feet back and the line is more directly underneath. I do it both ways since I feel greater stress on the back of my legs with a forward foot position and more on then front with a rearward foot position. I like love the smith for squats. Its almost like being on a hack machine or a sled.

neanderthal · 08-03-2003, 07:52 PM

prince is right kids. ''free squats'' may be safer in terms of not getting crushed under the bar on a missed rep. but you are at much more of a risk to injury, especially to the KNEES!! who wants a blown out knee? i sure as hell dont. i vote for tradtional style squats!

**Prince** · 08-03-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oaktownboy

bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith.

Well my friend you're dead wrong. If you squat with a cage you do not need a spot you can drop the barbell on the rack. And NO it's not wise to use a Smith, at least not for squats.

Doing squats on a Smith IS BAD! Period. It restricts the body from the natrual arc movement and it puts a lot of stress on both you're back and knees. Did you not read the quote from P-funk?

Quote:

Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact.

Think about it? I have for 17 years! That's how long I have been squatting with FREE weights. Never once injured myself on a squat. Oh, not that it's important but I am a certified trainer.

Quote:

Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact.

What? Arnold says that you should squat on a Smith? All I ever saw him doing was free weight squats in Pumping Iron, but who knows. Are you familiar with Tom Platz or Fred Hatfield? Why don't you go read up on their advice on squats. I do not know of any pro that does not do free weight squats, but I do not really care either, most of them are pretty stupid/ignorant when it comes to bodybuilding science.

Quote:

Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy.

Yup, you can go as heavy as you're capable, not sure what you're point is.

Quote:

Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.

Hell yeah, why wouldn't I? I guess that would mean I hit failure, right?

Quote:

Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.

Bullshit! This would be the absolute worst thing they could do! Free weight squats are used in knee rehabilitation, not Smith squats.

Where in the hell are you getting your information? Because everything you've said here is incorrect.

I suggest that you do some reading before you post any more crap like this.

neanderthal · 08-03-2003, 07:58 PM

rock on prince!

gr81 · 08-03-2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oaktownboy

bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith. Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact. Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact. Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy. Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.

HA HA, you sound like a fool. No pro ever, EVER said to use a smith machine to squat, I guarantee it, and even if they did, do not concern yourself with what the pros say, or what arnold says, what applies to them does not apply to you. Prince knows what he is talkin about and so do I, the smith machine is a cop out, it is not a real squat, it is good for nothing but an ego boost to pussies who are afraid to step under the squat rack.

Quote:
Oh yeah, NEVER GO ALL THE WAY DOWN ON SQUATS Jvette73! Only go halfway so your quads are parallel to the ground.Going all the way down risks back injury and can induce a wide number of other problems.
:end quote

Where are you getting your info from, this is BS. You need to take some time and do some reading and learn something before you post ignorant garbage like this. No one needs you perpetuating these fallacies here, you obviously don't understand the physics of a squat so go read up.

**Mudge** · 08-03-2003, 08:45 PM

I have done flat benching on a smith and even that KILLS me, for the most part, stay away from that thing.

**P-funk** · 08-03-2003, 09:07 PM

lol, what a funny thread......Listen to Prince....Smith machine squats are extremly foolish. It is funny that this thred is up right now I was just in a 2 hour biomechanics class in which I gave a speech on the dangers of smith squats.

Here were some of my main points:

1) you are not driving through your bodies center of gravity creating a movement which is not functional. This intern creates an improper motor pattern in your brain.
2) because your feet are out infront of you and you are laying back, supported by the bar, you are creating lots of distortion with respect to your center of gravity, which is now iin front of you.
3)because of the position you are in on the smith squat you are placing lots of tension on the spinal erectors as well as the neck muscles which are being forced to push up the bar which you are resting against creating a great amount of strain.
4) because your feet are infront of you and your center of gravity is displaced you are able to get down into much further knee flexion placing lost of uneccesary and dangerous shearing forces on the knees and hip.

I am really tired and have to wake up early to go to work and train my clients to do real squats....So if you are still not convinced I can add to this list later.

peace,
Patrick

**P-funk** · 08-03-2003, 09:20 PM

Oaktownboy, what happened to your post were you broke down what prince said? I was hoping to post a rebuttle.

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 09:24 PM

i am rewording it right now

**P-funk** · 08-03-2003, 09:26 PM

thanks

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 09:57 PM

The advantages of the Smith machine are in the control, the rigid limiting mechanics that protect injured rehabbing shoulders, and the chest or triceps, says Dave Draper.
I believe I already said this.
It’s a neat gadget for partial pumping movements, isolation, and improvised strictness. And it’s a great piece of equipment for guys who don’t have training partners or spotters, so you can use big weight.
Does this ring a bell?sounds awfully familiar
Ok this coming from a famous pro bodybuilder.Am I still wrong?

**Prince** · 08-03-2003, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oaktownboy
The advantages of the Smith machine are in the control, the rigid limiting mechanics that protect injured rehabbing shoulders, and the chest or triceps, says Dave Draper.
I believe I already said this.
It’s a neat gadget for partial pumping movements, isolation, and improvised strictness. And it’s a great piece of equipment for guys who don’t have training partners or spotters, so you can use big weight.
Does this ring a bell?sounds awfully familiar
Ok this coming from a famous pro bodybuilder.Am I still wrong?

As far as shoulders, a Smith can cause big problems because it does not strengthen synergisitc muscles, e.g. rotator cuffs. However, it might come in handy for initial pressing rehabilitation as in bench presses, etc., but I am not an physical therpaist so I cannot say that I have any expertise in that area.

If I has to choose between a machine, Smith or any other, and free weights for ANY movement, I choose free weights hands down every time. Period.

Do not get me wrong here, I like the Smith (I have one in my home gym), it has it's uses, but squats are certainly not one of them. And a Smith is not a replacement, nor a better alternative to any free weight exercise.

As far as these pro bodybuilders, I honestly do not care what they said or say. They're fame is completely irrelevant. Plus you have used the advice of bodybuilder's from the 70's, sorry but we've come a LONG way with exercise science since then.

You have now gone from Arnold to Dave Draper, interesting. I honestly have never read one word of what Dave Draper has written, and after reaing that quote I now know I never will.

gr81 · 08-03-2003, 10:26 PM

Isolation movements are not what is going to put on the mass, multi joint movements are what will get the job done. Like I said, who cares what a famous BB says, they have great genetics that will get them big no matter what they do. A smith bench is different than a smith squat b/c with the squat, the movement is changed around and puts stress on different locations as Pfunk said. Why do you seem to have the notion that you can't go heavy unless you have a machine to do it on?

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 10:41 PM

i never mentioned benching you did durrrrr

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
Do not get me wrong here, I like the Smith (I have one in my home gym), it has it's uses, but squats are certainly not one of them.
Well then apparently the trainers at the Gold's Gym i go to are dead wrong according to this statement.

**Prince** · 08-03-2003, 10:47 PM

If the trainers at Gold's Gym are telling you the stuff you've been posting in this thread, then yes they're DEAD WRONG!

Tell them to join this board and we would all be happy to debate with them.

oaktownboy · 08-03-2003, 11:01 PM

i have told them, and they said they don't give a rat's ass what people on the internet think.

aceman · 08-03-2003, 11:03 PM

I used to do my squats on the smith machine and ended up eventually having to go to the chiropractor. He explained that by using the smith machine you are not going through the full and proper motion that you do using a squat rack. Since using the rack I have not had the problems I did before. You will have to go down in weight, but you get greater benefits from the rack. You will have to give up

08-03-2003, 07:16 PM	#1
Jvette73 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Severna Park Md Posts: 40	Squats with smith machine When I do squats with my smith machine I usually dip all the way down. This limits the amount of weight I can handle. I notice that if I dip only half way or so I can handle twice the weight. Should I be doing sets of each? Full dips with lower weight and then half dips with the increased weight? After squats I follow with sets of quad extensions and then leg curls followed by calf raises.

08-03-2003, 07:18 PM	#2
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,510 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	my advice, stop doing squats on the Smith machine, it's dangerous. do free weight barbell squats only.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips!

08-03-2003, 07:24 PM	#5
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,386	i have to respectfully disagree here Prince..the Smith machine is very safe because it has stoppers which you can adjust to use as "spotters" Second, you don't have to worry about balancing the weight.This is especially important when the weight starts to get really heavy. Oh yeah, NEVER GO ALL THE WAY DOWN ON SQUATS Jvette73! Only go halfway so your quads are parallel to the ground.Going all the way down risks back injury and can induce a wide number of other problems.
	Chuck Norris once lost his keys and couldn't remember where he put them. So he tortured himself for half an hour until he gave up their location.

08-03-2003, 07:39 PM	#7
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,386	bad advice yes i agree on the point that u should use a regular barbell This helps build coordination, balance, strength.HOWEVER, when going for a heavy squat and u don't have someone to spot you, i think it would be very wise to use the Smith. Think about it. The only way you are going to build muscle is if you go heavy, That's a fact. Arnold says it, all the pros say it because it's a fact. Now with a barbell you can only go so heavy. Do you want to be at the bottom of the rack, unable to drive up because of the weight? I don't think so.Also, Smith is great for people who are coming off an injury. There are many advantage to the Smith.Don't count it out.
	Chuck Norris once lost his keys and couldn't remember where he put them. So he tortured himself for half an hour until he gave up their location.

08-03-2003, 07:52 PM	#9
neanderthal Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ILLINOIS Posts: 108	prince is right kids. ''free squats'' may be safer in terms of not getting crushed under the bar on a missed rep. but you are at much more of a risk to injury, especially to the KNEES!! who wants a blown out knee? i sure as hell dont. i vote for tradtional style squats!
	"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and f*ck the prom queen." "Every man has an animal inside. Some men have a domestic animal, and others a wild animal."

08-03-2003, 07:22 PM	#4
Jvette73 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Severna Park Md Posts: 40	Hmm..its interesting that you mention that. I feel much safer on the smith. Can always just lock out if I fail. I work out alone and have no spotter or squat cage. Before I got the smith I would do squats off the back of my TDS mega bench with the uprights raised. Now that was hairy and dangerous. why is the smith dangerous for squats?

08-03-2003, 07:46 PM	#8
Jvette73 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Severna Park Md Posts: 40	Cant one change the center of gravity on the push by simply changing your foot position. My smith is not angled as some are. Its line of upward movement is vertical. Sure I can place my feet forward and that would put the line of gravity behind me. Move feet back and the line is more directly underneath. I do it both ways since I feel greater stress on the back of my legs with a forward foot position and more on then front with a rearward foot position. I like love the smith for squats. Its almost like being on a hack machine or a sled.

08-03-2003, 07:58 PM	#11
neanderthal Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ILLINOIS Posts: 108	rock on prince!
	"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and f*ck the prom queen." "Every man has an animal inside. Some men have a domestic animal, and others a wild animal."

08-03-2003, 08:45 PM	#13
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,994 Photos: 1	I have done flat benching on a smith and even that KILLS me, for the most part, stay away from that thing.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-03-2003, 09:07 PM	#14
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,360	lol, what a funny thread......Listen to Prince....Smith machine squats are extremly foolish. It is funny that this thred is up right now I was just in a 2 hour biomechanics class in which I gave a speech on the dangers of smith squats. Here were some of my main points: 1) you are not driving through your bodies center of gravity creating a movement which is not functional. This intern creates an improper motor pattern in your brain. 2) because your feet are out infront of you and you are laying back, supported by the bar, you are creating lots of distortion with respect to your center of gravity, which is now iin front of you. 3)because of the position you are in on the smith squat you are placing lots of tension on the spinal erectors as well as the neck muscles which are being forced to push up the bar which you are resting against creating a great amount of strain. 4) because your feet are infront of you and your center of gravity is displaced you are able to get down into much further knee flexion placing lost of uneccesary and dangerous shearing forces on the knees and hip. I am really tired and have to wake up early to go to work and train my clients to do real squats....So if you are still not convinced I can add to this list later. peace, Patrick
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

08-03-2003, 09:20 PM	#15
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,360	Oaktownboy, what happened to your post were you broke down what prince said? I was hoping to post a rebuttle.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

08-03-2003, 09:24 PM	#16
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,386	i am rewording it right now
	Chuck Norris once lost his keys and couldn't remember where he put them. So he tortured himself for half an hour until he gave up their location.

08-03-2003, 09:26 PM	#17
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,360	thanks
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

08-03-2003, 09:57 PM	#18
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,386	The advantages of the Smith machine are in the control, the rigid limiting mechanics that protect injured rehabbing shoulders, and the chest or triceps, says Dave Draper. I believe I already said this. It’s a neat gadget for partial pumping movements, isolation, and improvised strictness. And it’s a great piece of equipment for guys who don’t have training partners or spotters, so you can use big weight. Does this ring a bell?sounds awfully familiar Ok this coming from a famous pro bodybuilder.Am I still wrong?
	Chuck Norris once lost his keys and couldn't remember where he put them. So he tortured himself for half an hour until he gave up their location.

08-03-2003, 10:26 PM	#20
gr81 You Lack Intensity!!!! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Just below our civil disguise Posts: 6,378 Photos: 10	Isolation movements are not what is going to put on the mass, multi joint movements are what will get the job done. Like I said, who cares what a famous BB says, they have great genetics that will get them big no matter what they do. A smith bench is different than a smith squat b/c with the squat, the movement is changed around and puts stress on different locations as Pfunk said. Why do you seem to have the notion that you can't go heavy unless you have a machine to do it on?
	Testosterone Site/Elite Fitness-Dave Tate/West Side Barbell/Berardi Nutrition & Sports Performance/Steroid Laws- Rick Collins/John Defendis Intensity or Insanity articles/Save the Supersonics

08-03-2003, 10:41 PM	#21
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,386	i never mentioned benching you did durrrrr
	Chuck Norris once lost his keys and couldn't remember where he put them. So he tortured himself for half an hour until he gave up their location.

08-03-2003, 10:47 PM	#23
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,510 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	If the trainers at Gold's Gym are telling you the stuff you've been posting in this thread, then yes they're DEAD WRONG! Tell them to join this board and we would all be happy to debate with them.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips!

08-03-2003, 11:01 PM	#24
oaktownboy Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: smog and fog Posts: 4,386	i have told them, and they said they don't give a rat's ass what people on the internet think.
	Chuck Norris once lost his keys and couldn't remember where he put them. So he tortured himself for half an hour until he gave up their location.