Big Back Training!

rockcrest · 10-15-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

The above workout is really in the rep range category, but it wasn't posted with the intention of fitting it into P/RR/S. I believe that for general training purposes that using a variety of rep ranges is the best way to go.

good look

chris mason · 10-15-2004, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I respect your knowledge and opinion, but you yourself are NOT a "bodybuilder" and do not work with bodybuilders on a regular basis. The type of training it takes to bring out the very detailed backs on competitive bodybuilders is far different from "having a pretty decent back." I have witnessed the "severe" changes in the looks of the backs of those I've worked with after bringing alot of variety into their programs.

I am not slamming you either, but after doing what I do for the past 14 years I have learned quite a bit about this subject.

I will respond to this charge by telling everyone a bit about myself.

The very first gym I trained at, Hoppe's, in Phoenix was a hole-in-the-wall gym which was owned by a former Mr. World and Mr. America. Mike Ashley trained there as well as a less known fellow by the name of Darren Lanaghan (sp?). Darren was the model for the first Power Factor training book and has appeared in several magazines.

Lance Dreher, a former Mr. Universe, prepared my first contest diet. The second gym I trained at was owned by a national level light heavyweight (placed one spot behind Flex Wheeler at the North American Championships).

I lived in Phoenix for 18 years and had the chance to meet, watch train, and even train with several top level (to include professional) bodybuilders at the various gyms I frequented. I have also had the opportunity to converse with them on various topics related to bodybuilding.

In my 17+ years in the iron game I have also studied bodybuilding as much or more than 95% of the folks out there. This is not a boast, just fact.

So, for you to dismiss my opinion because I am not a current competitive bodybuilder is unwarranted in my opinion.

Now, here is a link to a video of which displays my back and the results I have obtained:

http://www.wannabebig.com/vids/Chris...20-%2090x3.mov

Can you post such a video for comparison GoPro? Your vastly superior knowledge of bodybuilding must have netted you superior results?

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

I will respond to this charge by telling everyone a bit about myself.

The very first gym I trained at, Hoppe's, in Phoenix was a hole-in-the-wall gym which was owned by a former Mr. World and Mr. America. Mike Ashley trained there as well as a less known fellow by the name of Darren Lanaghan (sp?). Darren was the model for the first Power Factor training book and has appeared in several magazines.

Lance Dreher, a former Mr. Universe, prepared my first contest diet. The second gym I trained at was owned by a national level light heavyweight (placed one spot behind Flex Wheeler at the North American Championships).

I lived in Phoenix for 18 years and had the chance to meet, watch train, and even train with several top level (to include professional) bodybuilders at the various gyms I frequented. I have also had the opportunity to converse with them on various topics related to bodybuilding.

In my 17+ years in the iron game I have also studied bodybuilding as much or more than 95% of the folks out there. This is not a boast, just fact.

So, for you to dismiss my opinion because I am not a current competitive bodybuilder is unwarranted in my opinion.

Now, here is a link to a video of which displays my back and the results I have obtained:

http://www.wannabebig.com/vids/Chris...20-%2090x3.mov

Can you post such a video for comparison GoPro? Your vastly superior knowledge of bodybuilding must have netted you superior results?

Well, I guarentee that if you trained with top pros, as have I, then you were doing a very wide variety of movements. Pros tend to do 4,5,6 or more movements per workout. And while you have studied and conversed with many bodybuilders...and if you have you will certainly see how varied their back routines tend to be...I doubt that you have TRAINED dozens upon dozens of bodybuilders for shows where bringing out every section of the back is essential. Yes, diet is what is needed to lower the bodyfat % so the muscles have the opportunity to show...but if the development is not there, which is what I specialize in, then there will still be little detail.

And as far as your video...I have seen it and I think you have a nice wide/pretty thick back. Are your results superior to mine? Sorry, no. Unfortunately, I don't bring a video camera to the gym with me. I only care what my back looks like, or any other muscle, when I step onstage.

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockcrest

good look

chris mason · 10-15-2004, 04:31 PM

Well, I didn't expect any comparison.

Your assertation that all of the pros use a wide variety of back exercises is incorrect. Some do and some don't.

For example, Ronnie Coleman is considered to have one of the best backs of the current crop. How many exercises PER SESSION does Ronnie use to specifically target his back?

How about Dorian Yates? He had one of the best backs ever. How many exercises PER SESSION did Dorian employ?

I don't agree with you on this particular issue, there is nothing further to be read into the matter.

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Well, I didn't expect any comparison.

Your assertation that all of the pros use a wide variety of back exercises is incorrect. Some do and some don't.

For example, Ronnie Coleman is considered to have one of the best backs of the current crop. How many exercises PER SESSION does Ronnie use to specifically target his back?

How about Dorian Yates? He had one of the best backs ever. How many exercises PER SESSION did Dorian employ?

I don't agree with you on this particular issue, there is nothing further to be read into the matter.

-Well, you are someone I really have no need to compare myself too. I leave it at that.

-Ronnie uses more variety than you think. And I know Dorian used far more variety on his way up. But anyway, I will agree to disagree with you, as this is nothing new.

chris mason · 10-15-2004, 04:49 PM

Hmmm, talking trash now. I'll tell you what, post a current picture of your hugeness (or video) or you only look like a fool by your statements.

Do I think I am something great, no. In fact, I said I had an ok back. I am, however, man enough to show the results of my training when called-out. You, evidently, are not.

DOMS · 10-15-2004, 05:09 PM

I may be a n00b and all, but isn't the back the most complex bodypart? Both in terms of number of muscles and articulation?

It seems reasonable to me that a bodybuilder would have to hit the back from many directions in order to fully develop it.

Duncans Donuts · 10-15-2004, 05:40 PM

It is a reasonable assertion, but not a definite one.

I do no more than 3 exercises for a back. I'm an athlete, though, not a bodybuilder - I still don't see how someone who can chin bodyweight plus a pair of plates, deadlift in the 600s, etc. could have a lack of development.

Mason's point was that you don't positively have to use a lot of exercises to have good/great back development. He posted the video to make this point.

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Hmmm, talking trash now. I'll tell you what, post a current picture of your hugeness (or video) or you only look like a fool by your statements.

Do I think I am something great, no. In fact, I said I had an ok back. I am, however, man enough to show the results of my training when called-out. You, evidently, are not.

THAT was me trash talking? Please Chris, you are paranoid. You are not man enough to do anything when called out b/c you put out videos of yourself training all the time. That video was old, and apparently you have a NEED to show yourself. That NEED shows insecurity in my opinion. But I digress. I am not going to bring myself down to your level. You are a well built and strong guy that knows alot about training. You are not a competitive bodybuilder and will never be stepping onstage again to compete, so you and your development are meaningless to me. If I put up a pic or video and blew you away, what would that do for me?

Please, just leave it alone and continue to quietly post. You often give good advice so stick with that.

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

It is a reasonable assertion, but not a definite one.

I do no more than 3 exercises for a back. I'm an athlete, though, not a bodybuilder - I still don't see how someone who can chin bodyweight plus a pair of plates, deadlift in the 600s, etc. could have a lack of development.

Mason's point was that you don't positively have to use a lot of exercises to have good/great back development. He posted the video to make this point.

I never said that he lacked back development. Chris has a wide and thick back! And no, you don't have to use an incredibly wide variety of movements to have a good back, but I am interested in OPTIMIZING back development, not simply being good. For this, a variety is needed, especially with back.

Duncans Donuts · 10-15-2004, 05:53 PM

Quote:

How about Dorian Yates? He had one of the best backs ever. How many exercises PER SESSION did Dorian employ?

For the record, Dorian Yates did agree with the assertion that 1 or 2 exercises wasn't enough for the back as Mike Mentzer suggested to him. He felt that it was too complicated to hit with deadlifts and whatever else was done (bent rows?) I'm not sure how much he did, though.

Quote:

Yates: Here, again, we're deviating from what Arthur Jones was recommending, and to a lesser degree Mike Mentzer, doing the whole body or half the body in one workout. Even though I wasn't doing a tremendous volume, it was still too much to be doing several muscle groups at once. I do believe that you require a certain amount of volume, in terms of different exercises. I don't think you can go in the gym and train your chest or back adequately using only one exercise.

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

For the record, Dorian Yates did agree with the assertion that 1 or 2 exercises wasn't enough for the back as Mike Mentzer suggested to him. He felt that it was too complicated to hit with deadlifts and whatever else was done (bent rows?) I'm not sure how much he did, though.

You are correct.

chris mason · 10-15-2004, 06:25 PM

Blow me away??? Lol, your typing is cashing a check bigger than your body can backup. Pleeeeaaaasseeee post a picture and blow me away.

Please.

Now, to show humility on my part. I have an excerpt from Dorian's book Blood and Guts where he has pictures of his actual training log. From what I can ascertain, on June 23rd, 1992 he performed the following workout for his back:

pullover
reverse grip row
bench-row
dumbbell row
shrugs
hyperextension

So, he hit the traps with rows and shrugs. He hit his lats with rows and pullovers, and he hit his lower back with hyperextensions.

He looked to do 1 set of each exercise other than the pullovers where he did a couple of warmups (assuming I am reading it correctly).

QuestionGuy · 10-15-2004, 06:34 PM

this is honestly no showoff but i RARELY train my back, I lopve my back its big, muscely and when i flex it with my arms extended... it looks awesome , all kinds of mountians, i love it its proboby my most advanced area, the thing is i never give it attention maybe 1 a month i just hate training it because its boring to me, i love my back i dont know how that could be, maybe im training it partially when i do chest, i dont know but what i do know is that my dad has and even srtonger back and he stopped working out 20 years ago, i think its my genetics, i respond grate in some areas but sometimes not like i want it, like for example i have big biceps (18", i beleieve) but still they dont look like i want them to, they look simple and flat, hmm i guess everyone has some good and bad parts..

Duncans Donuts · 10-15-2004, 06:35 PM

I've heard this same argument before...

"I don't need to train my legs, they're already strong."

Tank316 · 10-15-2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Blow me away??? Lol, your typing is cashing a check bigger than your body can backup. Pleeeeaaaasseeee post a picture and blow me away.

Please.

Now, to show humility on my part. I have an excerpt from Dorian's book Blood and Guts where he has pictures of his actual training log. From what I can ascertain, on June 23rd, 1992 he performed the following workout for his back:

pullover
reverse grip row
bench-row
dumbbell row
shrugs
hyperextension

So, he hit the traps with rows and shrugs. He hit his lats with rows and pullovers, and he hit his lower back with hyperextensions.

He looked to do 1 set of each exercise other than the pullovers where he did a couple of warmups (assuming I am reading it correctly).

Quote:

Blow me away??? Lol, your typing is cashing a check bigger than your body can backup. Pleeeeaaaasseeee post a picture and blow me away.

Chris, with all do respect, STFU!!!!!
i watched your video of cheating up 225 straight bar curl, big whoop dee frickin do. thats a great way of showing the younger lifters NOTHING...

btw, shave your back hair man, its disgusting!!!!!!!!!

chris mason · 10-15-2004, 06:37 PM

Oh, and one more point of clarification. The video I posted is about 2 weeks old.

Whoops, and one more final point, I am not saying that many professionals do not follow a routine with several exercises, they do. What I am saying is that they do not ALL train in that fashion and some of the best backs ever were developed without worrying about angles of pull and grips etc.

If GoPro wishes to train himself and anyone else in that fashion I am sure they will develop nice backs, but his assertation that his method is necessary for optimization of the back (his word) is inaccurate in my opinion.

So, I never said his method doesn't work, I said that it is not necessary to develop a great back.

chris mason · 10-15-2004, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tank316

Chris, with all do respect, STFU!!!!!
i watched your video of cheating up 225 straight bar curl, big whoop dee frickin do. thats a great way of showing the younger lifters NOTHING...

btw, shave your back hair man, its disgusting!!!!!!!!!

Did you also watch my video of me propping my back up against a wall and curling 175 lbs? I gave an appropriate hand gesture for folks just like you at the end...

I am sorry my chest hair offends you. I promise if I were to ever compete again in a bodybuilding contest I will shave it. For now, I prefer not to because I end up getting broken out and rashes unless I keep the darn thing shaven practically every day.

****edit: Whoops, you don't like my back hair. Man, it isn't that bad, is it? Well, same story.

Tank316 · 10-15-2004, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Did you also watch my video of me propping my back up against a wall and curling 175 lbs? I gave an appropriate hand gesture for folks just like you at the end...

I am sorry my chest hair offends you. I promise if I were to ever compete again in a bodybuilding contest I will shave it. For now, I prefer not to because I end up getting broken out and rashes unless I keep the darn thing shaven practically every day.

****edit: Whoops, you don't like my back hair. Man, it isn't that bad, is it? Well, same story.

i dare you to try a bb'ing show, go compete with the likes of GoPro, then we will see who has the last say!!! or laugh!

i remember when you posted things here a couple of yrs ago, i would think through time that you wouldve grown up. Well same story!!!!

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tank316

i dare you to try a bb'ing show, go compete with the likes of GoPro, then we will see who has the last say!!! or laugh!

i remember when you posted things here a couple of yrs ago, i would think through time that you wouldve grown up. Well same story!!!!

Well, Tank pretty much said it all for me right here. I will not waste my time with you Chris. You are meaningless to me, can't you understand. I don't need to prove anything to you. If you would really like to make a comparison, lets pick out a show and compete against eachother.

Anyway, like I said earlier...you have plenty of good advice to give out, as long as you remember that you do not know everything...sometimes, no, usually, you come off like you think you do. So, be humble and stick to putting out your little videos and giving people solid training advice. I am sure your videos are inspiring to some, which is good, and I know that your advice helps many, which is better. So be a man now and just move on.

**CowPimp** · 10-15-2004, 11:16 PM

Potentially useful debates that result as a difference of opinion always turns into a pissing contest and/or name calling. I don't understand it...

DOMS · 10-15-2004, 11:46 PM

"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards

Tank316 · 10-16-2004, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Potentially useful debates that result as a difference of opinion always turns into a pissing contest and/or name calling. I don't understand it...

if your referring to me, i'm sorry! But when mr mason referred having Gp train people the way he wants pissed me OFF.
my results along with what 24-30 people who train with P/RR/Sh have had awesome results, i felt it was a slam in something i believe in , not a slam against my friend, wide lats are great, but if you plan on competing in a bb'ing show, you need full development!
Slamming chris on his 225 cheat curl, well i wont say i'm sorry for that, WHY?,because it teaches the younger lifters nothing.....there have been many younger lifers on this board who have ask GP many ?'s on lifting,always telling them ''train smart"
Eric wasnt ''trash talking'' either, he simply stated, ''i have nothing to compare it too''.
i too will admit, chris you have a wide back, but you are lacking in full back
development! its an observation from a bodybuilder's standpoint.
One more thing, being 41 yrs old on the P/RR/Sh ver. I and II i was making outstanding gains, no ph's/ps's. for some who know me, i went through rotator cuff surgery in August[work related], the program works.
so all in all , it was a useful debate, continue...........................

SportinStyle · 10-16-2004, 11:11 AM

Just a quick question... Should you work with high reps

10-15-2004, 05:09 PM	#38
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,725 Photos: 6	I may be a n00b and all, but isn't the back the most complex bodypart? Both in terms of number of muscles and articulation? It seems reasonable to me that a bodybuilder would have to hit the back from many directions in order to fully develop it.
	I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.—John Gotti

10-15-2004, 05:40 PM	#39
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	It is a reasonable assertion, but not a definite one. I do no more than 3 exercises for a back. I'm an athlete, though, not a bodybuilder - I still don't see how someone who can chin bodyweight plus a pair of plates, deadlift in the 600s, etc. could have a lack of development. Mason's point was that you don't positively have to use a lot of exercises to have good/great back development. He posted the video to make this point.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-15-2004, 06:35 PM	#46
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	I've heard this same argument before... "I don't need to train my legs, they're already strong."
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-15-2004, 11:16 PM	#52
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Potentially useful debates that result as a difference of opinion always turns into a pissing contest and/or name calling. I don't understand it...
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

10-15-2004, 11:46 PM	#53
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,725 Photos: 6	"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards
	I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid.—John Gotti

10-15-2004, 04:31 PM	#35
chris mason Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 407	Well, I didn't expect any comparison. Your assertation that all of the pros use a wide variety of back exercises is incorrect. Some do and some don't. For example, Ronnie Coleman is considered to have one of the best backs of the current crop. How many exercises PER SESSION does Ronnie use to specifically target his back? How about Dorian Yates? He had one of the best backs ever. How many exercises PER SESSION did Dorian employ? I don't agree with you on this particular issue, there is nothing further to be read into the matter.

10-15-2004, 04:49 PM	#37
chris mason Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 407	Hmmm, talking trash now. I'll tell you what, post a current picture of your hugeness (or video) or you only look like a fool by your statements. Do I think I am something great, no. In fact, I said I had an ok back. I am, however, man enough to show the results of my training when called-out. You, evidently, are not.

10-15-2004, 06:25 PM	#44
chris mason Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 407	Blow me away??? Lol, your typing is cashing a check bigger than your body can backup. Pleeeeaaaasseeee post a picture and blow me away. Please. Now, to show humility on my part. I have an excerpt from Dorian's book Blood and Guts where he has pictures of his actual training log. From what I can ascertain, on June 23rd, 1992 he performed the following workout for his back: pullover reverse grip row bench-row dumbbell row shrugs hyperextension So, he hit the traps with rows and shrugs. He hit his lats with rows and pullovers, and he hit his lower back with hyperextensions. He looked to do 1 set of each exercise other than the pullovers where he did a couple of warmups (assuming I am reading it correctly).

10-15-2004, 06:34 PM	#45
QuestionGuy Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,258	this is honestly no showoff but i RARELY train my back, I lopve my back its big, muscely and when i flex it with my arms extended... it looks awesome , all kinds of mountians, i love it its proboby my most advanced area, the thing is i never give it attention maybe 1 a month i just hate training it because its boring to me, i love my back i dont know how that could be, maybe im training it partially when i do chest, i dont know but what i do know is that my dad has and even srtonger back and he stopped working out 20 years ago, i think its my genetics, i respond grate in some areas but sometimes not like i want it, like for example i have big biceps (18", i beleieve) but still they dont look like i want them to, they look simple and flat, hmm i guess everyone has some good and bad parts..

10-15-2004, 06:37 PM	#48
chris mason Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 407	Oh, and one more point of clarification. The video I posted is about 2 weeks old. Whoops, and one more final point, I am not saying that many professionals do not follow a routine with several exercises, they do. What I am saying is that they do not ALL train in that fashion and some of the best backs ever were developed without worrying about angles of pull and grips etc. If GoPro wishes to train himself and anyone else in that fashion I am sure they will develop nice backs, but his assertation that his method is necessary for optimization of the back (his word) is inaccurate in my opinion. So, I never said his method doesn't work, I said that it is not necessary to develop a great back.

10-16-2004, 11:11 AM	#55
SportinStyle IM's Anti-Drug ;) Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 275 Photos: 8	Just a quick question... Should you work with high reps