Big Back Training!

**gopro** · 09-25-2003, 02:39 PM

I posted this answer on another board and thought some people here might find it helpful...

Let me answer like this:

The back, IMO, is the most complex muscle group in the body, the most challenging to get fully developed, and the most amazing to look at when bodyfat is low! There are alot of muscles to think about when approaching back training...the lats, the teres, the rhomboids, the posterior delts, the upper and mid traps, the erectors, and yes the muscles that lie deeper in the back (not visible to us).

More than with ANY other muscle group, the back carries with it the need for mant different exercises, angles, and grips to achieve true "completeness." Some people are wide, some are thick, and some have pretty good detail, but few have it all!

The way I approach back training is to try and get to every portion of my back in each workout and do so without overtraining or spending 3 hours in the gym. This means NOT trying to do every exercise in existence at every back workout, but getting in different ones each time.

This is what I like to do each week, and this is what has literally transformed my back over the last few years from a weakness to a strong point.

3 basic angle of pull:

-one vertical pulling movement (pullups, pulldowns)
-one horizontal pulling movement (seated row, hammer row, machine row)
-one bent over movement (bent row, dumbell row, T-bar row)

1 "upper lat" isolator:

-either stiff arms or pullovers (machine or dumbell)

1 upper trap/1 mid trap movement:

-upper: barbell shrug, dumbell shrug, machine shrug
-middle: upright row (bar, cable, dumbell)

1 lower back movement:

-hyperextensions, rack deads, good mornings (I'm partial to deads)

3 types of grips for my pulling exercises:

-one exercise with close or v-handle
-one wide and overhand
-one medium and underhand

(I will change which exercise/pulling angle gets which grip each time I train)

To carify, a typical day of back will look like this:

-machine pullover...2 x 12-15
-WG overhand pulldown...2 x 10-12
-CG seated row...2 x 8-10
-underhand grip bent row...2 x 6-8
-rack deads...2 x 4-6
-superset: dumbell shrug/barbell upright row...2 x 8-10 each

*Rear delts, which are needed for a complete back are done on delt day for part of the year and back day for part of the year.

I hope this helps someone. It made all the difference for me when I put this together a few years ago, and my many clients as well

gr81 · 09-25-2003, 03:30 PM

nice post GP, I totally agree with what you say about how to approach back training, good lookin out

derekisdman · 09-25-2003, 09:58 PM

I love the back and the way it looks under low bf too...I can't wait untill I build an awesome back and lose the bf to show it. Only thing I don't like is that it's hard to evaluate in the mirror!

Saturday Fever · 10-12-2004, 10:17 PM

bump.

While I don't agree with parts, I agree with the entirety. For someone looking for a back routine, this is a good read.

rockcrest · 10-12-2004, 10:26 PM

does this apply to the p/rr/s workout?

**gopro** · 10-13-2004, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockcrest

does this apply to the p/rr/s workout?

This can absolutely be applied to P/RR/S.

M.J.H. · 10-13-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

-machine pullover...2 x 12-15
-WG overhand pulldown...2 x 10-12
-CG seated row...2 x 8-10
-underhand grip bent row...2 x 6-8
-rack deads...2 x 4-6
-superset: dumbell shrug/barbell upright row...2 x 8-10 each

That just seems like a lot to do in one workout, IMO. Am I crazy? Five exercises and then a superset would knock me on my a*s. Lately I have been doing 4-5 sets of about 3 exercises for back. Would it be more effective to be doing 2-3 sets of 5 exercises? Since we have accomplished that variety is key.

Duncans Donuts · 10-13-2004, 07:18 PM

I do about 3 back exercises total :|

sabre81 · 10-13-2004, 08:35 PM

I have been doing a similar routine for back, minus the pullovers, for a while. I think it works great.

good post btw

pmech · 10-13-2004, 09:56 PM

I dont think it is alot, I could be wrong but I put between 14-16 sets into my back depending on if it is rep DL day or not. Granted I am not huge and learning the fundamentals, but I have found this worked for me back in the day quite well and has helped me get back in the swing of lifting again.

M.J.H. · 10-13-2004, 11:42 PM

Hmm, this does bring up an interesting topic. The idea of training with just a few basic exercises vs. a variety of different exercises in each workout.

camarosuper6 · 10-13-2004, 11:45 PM

I like both worlds. Variety, coupled with few exercises.

**gopro** · 10-14-2004, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonStar

That just seems like a lot to do in one workout, IMO. Am I crazy? Five exercises and then a superset would knock me on my a*s. Lately I have been doing 4-5 sets of about 3 exercises for back. Would it be more effective to be doing 2-3 sets of 5 exercises? Since we have accomplished that variety is key.

The workout above is a total of 14 sets, which is including traps as well. Take out the traps and you have 10 total work sets. If you are doing 3 exercises at 4-5 sets each, you are at 12-15 total sets, surpassing the routine I posted.

Another note...it is integral in back training, more than with any other bodypart, to use a wide variety of exercises, angles, and grips for total and complete development of all of the muscles. Now, if you are simply interested in a "big back," than just do some pullups and rows...but, if you really want to bring out all the finer points of the back, you need to be more specialized in your approach.

M.J.H. · 10-14-2004, 09:40 AM

Thanks gopro, today in the gym I am doing arms instead of doing 4-5 sets of 2 exercises for my biceps and triceps I am going to try and do 2 worksets of 3-4 exercises for my biceps and triceps. I'll let you know how it works, thanks bud.

**gopro** · 10-14-2004, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonStar

Thanks gopro, today in the gym I am doing arms instead of doing 4-5 sets of 2 exercises for my biceps and triceps I am going to try and do 2 worksets of 3-4 exercises for my biceps and triceps. I'll let you know how it works, thanks bud.

I hope it works well for you. Let me know.

ALIENEGYPT · 10-14-2004, 12:26 PM

Hey GP-

Nice post man!...Still tweaking my back day...Will incorporate this info for sure!

Andrew

Saturday Fever · 10-14-2004, 02:33 PM

Adopting a scheme like this is good for any style of training. You could easily implement this as part of your accessory work on a DE Sq/DL day using a Westside routine, for example. You could put this into a Push/Pull/Legs split, whatever.

**gopro** · 10-14-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

Adopting a scheme like this is good for any style of training. You could easily implement this as part of your accessory work on a DE Sq/DL day using a Westside routine, for example. You could put this into a Push/Pull/Legs split, whatever.

Very true

pmech · 10-14-2004, 03:45 PM

OMG, the world has ended. SF and gopro in agreement...... repent now....

chris mason · 10-14-2004, 06:30 PM

Here is what I do which directly works some portion of my back:

weighted curl-grip chins
deadlifts
hang cleans

I don't do them on the same day in most cases. I have a pretty decent back.

To me, detail is a function of the muscles being developed enough to see and then bodyfat. In other words, the only way a particular exercise brings out detail is if that exercise causes development sufficient to be viewed when fat may have previously blurred said muscle. Beyond that it is purely a function of how much fat is covering the musculature.

This is not a slam on GoPro but I do not agree with his assertation that so many different movements need to be practiced to enjoy a fully developed back.

Duncans Donuts · 10-14-2004, 07:23 PM

^
That is exactly my back program as well. Except I'm doing hang cleans for football, not because I want to for back routine.

**gopro** · 10-14-2004, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

Here is what I do which directly works some portion of my back:

weighted curl-grip chins
deadlifts
hang cleans

I don't do them on the same day in most cases. I have a pretty decent back.

To me, detail is a function of the muscles being developed enough to see and then bodyfat. In other words, the only way a particular exercise brings out detail is if that exercise causes development sufficient to be viewed when fat may have previously blurred said muscle. Beyond that it is purely a function of how much fat is covering the musculature.

This is not a slam on GoPro but I do not agree with his assertation that so many different movements need to be practiced to enjoy a fully developed back.

I respect your knowledge and opinion, but you yourself are NOT a "bodybuilder" and do not work with bodybuilders on a regular basis. The type of training it takes to bring out the very detailed backs on competitive bodybuilders is far different from "having a pretty decent back." I have witnessed the "severe" changes in the looks of the backs of those I've worked with after bringing alot of variety into their programs.

I am not slamming you either, but after doing what I do for the past 14 years I have learned quite a bit about this subject.

DOMS · 10-14-2004, 10:13 PM

Thanks for the great post gopro!

M.J.H. · 10-14-2004, 10:50 PM

I don't know if you read my journal or not GP, but my arm workout today was GREAT. Did 4 exercises each for biceps and triceps and 2 worksets per exercise. Really blasted my arms harder than ever---I was very pleased. Tomorrow I am going to do legs with 2 worksets or maybe 3 per exercise, and do 4-5 exercises total.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris mason

I have a pretty decent back.

You have incredible lats, Chris. Haha, a pretty decent back? Don't make me post your lat spread pictures again. They'll scare everybody in this thread away.

rockcrest · 10-14-2004, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

This can absolutely be applied to P/RR/S.

is this the p, the rr, or the s workout? it seems to be a combo of the three. it looks good and i want to mix it into the p/rr/s scheme, but what week would you suggest is best>?

thankz

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockcrest

is this the p, the rr, or the s workout? it seems to be a combo of the three. it looks good and i want to mix it into the p/rr/s scheme, but what week would you suggest is best>?

thankz

The above workout is really in the rep range category, but it wasn't posted with the intention of fitting it into P/RR/S. I believe that for general training purposes that using a variety of rep ranges is the best way to go.

**gopro** · 10-15-2004, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonStar

I don't know if you read my journal or not GP, but my arm workout today was GREAT. Did 4 exercises each for biceps and triceps and 2 worksets per exercise. Really blasted my arms harder than ever---I was very pleased. Tomorrow I am going to do legs with 2 worksets or maybe 3 per exercise, and do 4-5 exercises total.

I didn't see it, but I'm glad it worked well for you. Keep me posted on how it goes for other bodyparts

09-25-2003, 02:39 PM	#1
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,505	Big Back Training! I posted this answer on another board and thought some people here might find it helpful... Let me answer like this: The back, IMO, is the most complex muscle group in the body, the most challenging to get fully developed, and the most amazing to look at when bodyfat is low! There are alot of muscles to think about when approaching back training...the lats, the teres, the rhomboids, the posterior delts, the upper and mid traps, the erectors, and yes the muscles that lie deeper in the back (not visible to us). More than with ANY other muscle group, the back carries with it the need for mant different exercises, angles, and grips to achieve true "completeness." Some people are wide, some are thick, and some have pretty good detail, but few have it all! The way I approach back training is to try and get to every portion of my back in each workout and do so without overtraining or spending 3 hours in the gym. This means NOT trying to do every exercise in existence at every back workout, but getting in different ones each time. This is what I like to do each week, and this is what has literally transformed my back over the last few years from a weakness to a strong point. 3 basic angle of pull: -one vertical pulling movement (pullups, pulldowns) -one horizontal pulling movement (seated row, hammer row, machine row) -one bent over movement (bent row, dumbell row, T-bar row) 1 "upper lat" isolator: -either stiff arms or pullovers (machine or dumbell) 1 upper trap/1 mid trap movement: -upper: barbell shrug, dumbell shrug, machine shrug -middle: upright row (bar, cable, dumbell) 1 lower back movement: -hyperextensions, rack deads, good mornings (I'm partial to deads) 3 types of grips for my pulling exercises: -one exercise with close or v-handle -one wide and overhand -one medium and underhand (I will change which exercise/pulling angle gets which grip each time I train) To carify, a typical day of back will look like this: -machine pullover...2 x 12-15 -WG overhand pulldown...2 x 10-12 -CG seated row...2 x 8-10 -underhand grip bent row...2 x 6-8 -rack deads...2 x 4-6 -superset: dumbell shrug/barbell upright row...2 x 8-10 each *Rear delts, which are needed for a complete back are done on delt day for part of the year and back day for part of the year. I hope this helps someone. It made all the difference for me when I put this together a few years ago, and my many clients as well
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. VPX Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

09-25-2003, 03:30 PM	#2
gr81 You Lack Intensity!!!! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Just below our civil disguise Posts: 6,378 Photos: 10	nice post GP, I totally agree with what you say about how to approach back training, good lookin out
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09-25-2003, 09:58 PM	#3
derekisdman RAWR! Elite Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,294	I love the back and the way it looks under low bf too...I can't wait untill I build an awesome back and lose the bf to show it. Only thing I don't like is that it's hard to evaluate in the mirror!
	Homer: Hey! I saved your life! That egg sandwich could have killed you by cholesterol. Lenny: Pfft, forget it, Homer. While it has been established that eggs contain cholesterol, it has not yet been proven conclusively that they actually raise the level of serum cholesterol in the human blood stream.

10-12-2004, 10:17 PM	#4
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	bump. While I don't agree with parts, I agree with the entirety. For someone looking for a back routine, this is a good read.
	yay.

10-13-2004, 07:18 PM	#8
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	I do about 3 back exercises total :\|
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-12-2004, 10:26 PM	#5
rockcrest Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Providence Posts: 387 Photos: 5	does this apply to the p/rr/s workout?

10-13-2004, 08:35 PM	#9
sabre81 mmmm weights.. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Western New York Posts: 386	I have been doing a similar routine for back, minus the pullovers, for a while. I think it works great. good post btw
	Damn

10-13-2004, 09:56 PM	#10
pmech Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Cheeseland Posts: 574 Photos: 1	I dont think it is alot, I could be wrong but I put between 14-16 sets into my back depending on if it is rep DL day or not. Granted I am not huge and learning the fundamentals, but I have found this worked for me back in the day quite well and has helped me get back in the swing of lifting again.

10-13-2004, 11:42 PM	#11
M.J.H. Obsessed Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Delaware Posts: 3,587 Photos: 12	Hmm, this does bring up an interesting topic. The idea of training with just a few basic exercises vs. a variety of different exercises in each workout.
	Stats! 23 years old, 5'11.5", 206 lbs., ~8% bodyfat 380/455/655 bench/squat/deadlift (current) 405/495/675 bench/squat/deadlift (goals) The M.J.H. Chronicles

10-13-2004, 11:45 PM	#12
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,344	I like both worlds. Variety, coupled with few exercises.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

10-14-2004, 09:40 AM	#14
M.J.H. Obsessed Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Delaware Posts: 3,587 Photos: 12	Thanks gopro, today in the gym I am doing arms instead of doing 4-5 sets of 2 exercises for my biceps and triceps I am going to try and do 2 worksets of 3-4 exercises for my biceps and triceps. I'll let you know how it works, thanks bud.
	Stats! 23 years old, 5'11.5", 206 lbs., ~8% bodyfat 380/455/655 bench/squat/deadlift (current) 405/495/675 bench/squat/deadlift (goals) The M.J.H. Chronicles

10-14-2004, 12:26 PM	#16
ALIENEGYPT In the studio... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dallas Posts: 61 Photos: 1	Hey GP- Nice post man!...Still tweaking my back day...Will incorporate this info for sure! Andrew
	Currently Under Construction.

10-14-2004, 02:33 PM	#17
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	Adopting a scheme like this is good for any style of training. You could easily implement this as part of your accessory work on a DE Sq/DL day using a Westside routine, for example. You could put this into a Push/Pull/Legs split, whatever.
	yay.

10-14-2004, 03:45 PM	#19
pmech Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Cheeseland Posts: 574 Photos: 1	OMG, the world has ended. SF and gopro in agreement...... repent now....

10-14-2004, 06:30 PM	#20
chris mason Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 415	Here is what I do which directly works some portion of my back: weighted curl-grip chins deadlifts hang cleans I don't do them on the same day in most cases. I have a pretty decent back. To me, detail is a function of the muscles being developed enough to see and then bodyfat. In other words, the only way a particular exercise brings out detail is if that exercise causes development sufficient to be viewed when fat may have previously blurred said muscle. Beyond that it is purely a function of how much fat is covering the musculature. This is not a slam on GoPro but I do not agree with his assertation that so many different movements need to be practiced to enjoy a fully developed back.

10-14-2004, 07:23 PM	#21
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	^ That is exactly my back program as well. Except I'm doing hang cleans for football, not because I want to for back routine.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-14-2004, 10:13 PM	#23
DOMS Metrosexual Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In a van, down by the river... Posts: 21,512 Photos: 5	Thanks for the great post gopro!
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