What exactly is overtraining?

Dante B. · 12-15-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.

A certain level, perhaps. However for the majority, I don't believe it's the most effective approach by any means.

However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.

No doubt, there are hundreds of ways to skin a cat, and as the cat gets wiser, you have to fool it.

**Prince** · 12-15-2003, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante B.
However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.

this is the key IMO, you have to cycle training to failure just like anything else, or you will end up in a state of over training.

of course training to failure is only one of many variables that will contribute to over training.

**gopro** · 12-16-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante B.
A certain level, perhaps. However for the majority, I don't believe it's the most effective approach by any means.

However, I certainly think it's useful to periodically train to total failure----in line with cycling volume and intensity.

No doubt, there are hundreds of ways to skin a cat, and as the cat gets wiser, you have to fool it.

My volume remains exactly the same all year long. What does constantly change is training protocols, rep ranges, TUTs, rep speed, exercises, etc. However, all workouts contain the same amount of sets and take the same amount of time. All sets are taken to momentary concentric failure for sure, and often beyond this.

For beginners and intermediates, I do not believe failure training to be necessary, just "progression." But as you become advanced, I believe that failure training...the majority of time...becomes necessary to reach new heights.

There are many ways to skin a cat, but the wiser the cat, the more efficient training method he will use.

Dante B. · 12-17-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

There are many ways to skin a cat, but the wiser the cat, the more efficient training method he will use

And that, of course, is where we disagree----what is truly efficient, in the many contexts (beginner, so on).

**gopro** · 12-17-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante B.
And that, of course, is where we disagree----what is truly efficient, in the many contexts (beginner, so on).

Don't think we disagree completely. Beginners through intermediates can train many different ways and progress nicely without ever hitting failure. It is the very advanced that I feel NEED to hit failure to progress. So perhaps we simply disagree about the latter, not the former.

BabsieGirl · 01-26-2004, 04:53 PM

Bump.......For all those who do not know how to do a search!

Brak86 · 01-26-2004, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by camarosuper6
Also, its not just your muscle that you could be overtraining. Studies suggest muscles actually could be ready for another workout anywhere from 24 to 72 hours (depending on your genetics and such), but your CNS (central nervous system) usually takes much longer to fully recover, making most of us have to wait more days than people who have extremely fast recovery rates, usually due to genetics, anabolics, or both.

So do u think mind-strenghtening exercises e.g. (meditation), would help ones CNS recover better? i love meditation and it does wonders...maybe it does help with faster CNS recovery...i dunno.. just a thought

FortifiedIron · 01-26-2004, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Once you reach a certain level, I respectfully disagree. Or at least firmly believe the most effective approach is total failure training.

Says who?

It basicly comes down to that 98% of the people do not know how to tran effectivly.

Im really looking forward to this discussion, considering I have compiled tons of information on the subject and I feel people should be advised as to what NOT to do when training.

Kc

FortifiedIron · 01-26-2004, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
My volume remains exactly the same all year long. What does constantly change is training protocols, rep ranges, TUTs, rep speed, exercises, etc. However, all workouts contain the same amount of sets and take the same amount of time. All sets are taken to momentary concentric failure for sure, and often beyond this.

For beginners and intermediates, I do not believe failure training to be necessary, just "progression." But as you become advanced, I believe that failure training...the majority of time...becomes necessary to reach new heights.

Boy am i gunna have fun with this one.

Kc

MissOz · 01-26-2004, 06:03 PM

Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? )
but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!

FortifiedIron · 01-26-2004, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MissOz
Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? )
but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!

Actually that is untrue. Most athletes train to the point where they are overtraining. This is what is reffered to as 'overreaching' and should be done during the loading cycle. (7-14) days.

What is interesting with all these programs, Max-OT, HIT, GoPro's workouts, and many other programs is NONE of them maximally stimulate the system for adaption.

The problem with things are like i said before, people dont understand the relationship between volume, intensity, frequency and density for bodybuilders. From what I've gathered Dante is on the right track but im not sure if he has the whole big picture, but im sure he would pretty much agree with everything i say.

All i can say is expect something from me in the next month or so that will really hit the bodybuilding world and industrial as far as how people, especially bodybuilders organize their training. Unlike most of the other programs (discluding HST and DFHT) I'll have research on my side!

Kc

**P-funk** · 01-26-2004, 08:00 PM

Fortified, I noticed the MelSiff.com link in your signature. When will that site be up and running?? Also, do you know of a site where I can purchase 'supertraining"?? I can't seem to find it...lol

FortifiedIron · 01-26-2004, 08:17 PM

We've been working on the Siff site for awhile now... not really making good progress lol

you can get ST from www.elitefts.com and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/supertraining/

Kc

**P-funk** · 01-26-2004, 08:20 PM

thanks

MissOz · 01-26-2004, 08:29 PM

Fortified I don't agree with you there on the point of "overtraining", the athletes training cycle should not let them enter into the competition phase overtrained and/or injured . You can't train hard and play hard at the same time!!The whole idea behind macrocycle is to peak them in the best condition.

FortifiedIron · 01-26-2004, 09:08 PM

Macrocycle is reffered to a year plan. A peak is considered a "Mesocycle" or "Microcycle" All are different lengths and all are for different purposes.

Ofcourse an athlete isnt going to be 'loading' before a competition, the athlete will be deloading or in a state or rest or moderate loading.

It would be interesting to find out where you get your literature from on periodization.

Kc

MissOz · 01-27-2004, 09:21 PM

Fort...I was just keeping things simple , I'm quite aware of periodization etc macro,meso,micro etc etc etc etc...it would be interesting to find out what exactly is your point ....Cheers x

FortifiedIron · 01-27-2004, 11:05 PM

From what i've read we dont seem to be on the same page as far as the basic principles of periodization go and also understanding of managing load.

The whole point of periodization is to overreach then taper. It also might be good to get a proper definition of overreaching and overtraining as they are two totally seperate things.

Kc

MissOz · 01-28-2004, 02:33 AM

Fort ....you should take a page out of Mel Siff's book !!!

**gopro** · 01-28-2004, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
Boy am i gunna have fun with this one.

Kc

Oh really? C'mon, I need a good laugh.

**gopro** · 01-28-2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
Actually that is untrue. Most athletes train to the point where they are overtraining. This is what is reffered to as 'overreaching' and should be done during the loading cycle. (7-14) days.

What is interesting with all these programs, Max-OT, HIT, GoPro's workouts, and many other programs is NONE of them maximally stimulate the system for adaption.

The problem with things are like i said before, people dont understand the relationship between volume, intensity, frequency and density for bodybuilders. From what I've gathered Dante is on the right track but im not sure if he has the whole big picture, but im sure he would pretty much agree with everything i say.

All i can say is expect something from me in the next month or so that will really hit the bodybuilding world and industrial as far as how people, especially bodybuilders organize their training. Unlike most of the other programs (discluding HST and DFHT) I'll have research on my side!

Kc

You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!

Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!

Go ahead and "show us the way." Just try and not to be so arrogant as to think that your way is the very best way..b/c its not. There are extremely effective ways to train and ways that suck. There is no "best." P/RR/S has proven itself to be incredibly effective for countless #s of people and it is growing by leaps and bounds...but Max -OT, HIT, and several others are also on top of the heap.

Man, I really love this bullsh%t.

ponyboy · 01-28-2004, 02:28 PM

Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true? I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that.

I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research.

**Prince** · 01-28-2004, 02:30 PM

FortifiedIron is omniscient.

FortifiedIron · 01-28-2004, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
You see, I just found this and already had a good laugh!! Here comes someone...whoever you are...that is going to "revolutionize" the way we train, and show why MY and several other very well known programs, are simply not optimal. And guess what? He'll have research on his side!! Maybe some nice studies...well worded and all with scientific like mumbo jumbo!

Well buddy, I could care less. You want to know what makes a program successful and what type of "study" really has meaning? That would be when tons and tons of people make the best gains of their life on a program...when they cannot believe how their body is changing for the better everyday...when you have been training for 14 years, hit a plateau, then go on a program and gain another 25-30 lbs of muscle...THAT IS SUCCESS and solid proof that the program works!

Go ahead and "show us the way." Just try and not to be so arrogant as to think that your way is the very best way..b/c its not. There are extremely effective ways to train and ways that suck. There is no "best." P/RR/S has proven itself to be incredibly effective for countless #s of people and it is growing by leaps and bounds...but Max -OT, HIT, and several others are also on top of the heap.

Man, I really love this bullsh%t.

lol, I also love the bullshit of imaginary muscle fibers

Ok Mr. Pro, I think you agree with me that stress= adaption. Granted each indvidual has a different rate at which they adapt but the bottom line is that Stress is the key factor for adaption. Now would you please enlighten me with your 'way' of thinking and with 'your' research as to the best way to 'apply' stress maximally to stimulate 'adaption'

You might also want to forget about your little comments about how studies are irrelavent, unlike you (your fiber studies) my studies i post and write about not only come from scientist but world renown Eastern Bloc and Western coaches. Namely Fry, Siff, Zatsiorsky, Stone and several others. Which of course these individuals have accomplished more then what the majority of us will ever in life.

Also before you even think about replying back, you better open up your books regarding periodization.

Kc

FortifiedIron · 01-28-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
FortifiedIron is omniscient.

That is interesting considering that just in another thread or other threads you seem to be avoiding post.

Kc

ponyboy · 01-28-2004, 02:42 PM

My dad can beat up your dad. I have a study that proves it.

Dude, it's the internet. Holy crap.

FortifiedIron · 01-28-2004, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ponyboy
Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true? I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that.

I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research.

Actually the line of thinking is very similar to that of DFHT and HST, but with different loading patterns and different approach to volume/loading and other things.

Kc

01-26-2004, 04:53 PM	#36
BabsieGirl Fighting Endometriosis Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7,495	Bump.......For all those who do not know how to do a search!
	Don't hate the player, hate the game!http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...the%20wave.GIF Before you talk about what you want - appreciate what you have. http://home.earthlink.net/~gwcaton/s...ctures/tmf.jpg A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband. -Honore de Balzac Desire+Consistency='s RESULTS

01-26-2004, 08:00 PM	#42
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	Fortified, I noticed the MelSiff.com link in your signature. When will that site be up and running?? Also, do you know of a site where I can purchase 'supertraining"?? I can't seem to find it...lol
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

01-26-2004, 08:17 PM	#43
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	We've been working on the Siff site for awhile now... not really making good progress lol you can get ST from www.elitefts.com and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/supertraining/ Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-26-2004, 08:20 PM	#44
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	thanks
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

01-26-2004, 09:08 PM	#46
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	Macrocycle is reffered to a year plan. A peak is considered a "Mesocycle" or "Microcycle" All are different lengths and all are for different purposes. Ofcourse an athlete isnt going to be 'loading' before a competition, the athlete will be deloading or in a state or rest or moderate loading. It would be interesting to find out where you get your literature from on periodization. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-26-2004, 06:03 PM	#40
MissOz yummy mummy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oz Posts: 160 Photos: 4	Most athletes never overtrain because they carefully plan their training protocols over a 12 month period (macrocycle) I know this isn't appropriate for BB ( could be necessary when planning your competitve calender? ) but it's a great way to goal set and stay focused long term !!!!

01-26-2004, 08:29 PM	#45
MissOz yummy mummy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oz Posts: 160 Photos: 4	Fortified I don't agree with you there on the point of "overtraining", the athletes training cycle should not let them enter into the competition phase overtrained and/or injured . You can't train hard and play hard at the same time!!The whole idea behind macrocycle is to peak them in the best condition.

01-27-2004, 09:21 PM	#47
MissOz yummy mummy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oz Posts: 160 Photos: 4	Fort...I was just keeping things simple , I'm quite aware of periodization etc macro,meso,micro etc etc etc etc...it would be interesting to find out what exactly is your point ....Cheers x

01-27-2004, 11:05 PM	#48
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	From what i've read we dont seem to be on the same page as far as the basic principles of periodization go and also understanding of managing load. The whole point of periodization is to overreach then taper. It also might be good to get a proper definition of overreaching and overtraining as they are two totally seperate things. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-28-2004, 02:33 AM	#49
MissOz yummy mummy Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oz Posts: 160 Photos: 4	Fort ....you should take a page out of Mel Siff's book !!!

01-28-2004, 02:28 PM	#52
ponyboy Training Trainer Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Running around somewhere Posts: 2,608 Photos: 1	Oh, come on GP...you know that if studies can prove it, then it must be true? I can refer you to at least two studies that can prove that. I'm waiting to see this thing that is going to "hit the bodybuilding world and industrial" with this new groundbreaking research.
	Today I can do what others will not so that tomorrow I will do what others cannot. The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don't want to do.

01-28-2004, 02:30 PM	#53
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,981 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	FortifiedIron is omniscient.
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01-28-2004, 02:42 PM	#56
ponyboy Training Trainer Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Running around somewhere Posts: 2,608 Photos: 1	My dad can beat up your dad. I have a study that proves it. Dude, it's the internet. Holy crap.
	Today I can do what others will not so that tomorrow I will do what others cannot. The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don't want to do.