What exactly is overtraining?

M.J.H. · 01-29-2004, 08:38 AM

I can attest to the Fitness Fatigue model, I read about it in 'Supertraining' and used it for a while actually, with good results I might add.

And ponyboy, that was Kyle's strength routine. This is what he wrote just before the program:

Quote:

Here is an example of my strength program:

I am sure that his hypertrophy program is different.

ponyboy · 01-29-2004, 09:50 AM

Ah - I took that to mean that it was an example of his program for others. My bad.

**CowPimp** · 01-29-2004, 12:30 PM

That is a seriously intense strength program. I am definitely interested in gaining strength, but I rarely have a spotter. A routine like that would be dangerous for me, and probably most other people. However, it looks very effective.

x~factor · 01-29-2004, 01:16 PM

So is there any truth to this?

"There is no such thing as overtraining. Just under eating."

FortifiedIron · 01-29-2004, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ponyboy
This is a powerlifting routine. How is the world does this apply to everyday people like myself and countless others? You do realize that for the average person lifting like this is dangerous and nonfunctional - doing olympic lifting is fine for a limited few who have been training for a long time, but I could never apply this routine to any clients at my gym. Therefore to me this routine is useless. I wouldn't even try it myself.

How would you adjust this program to the average person who had only been lifting for 1 year or less?

I had said it was for strength not hypertrophy. You will def. need to modify the program for hypertrophy. The point of that post was to show the relationship between the volume and the intensity. You can see how it increases and decreases together.

Id also like for you to explain to me just how this program is dangerous?

Id also like to know what you have to go off this comment as well "doing olympic lifting is fine for a limited few who have been training for a long time"?

Kc

Nate · 01-29-2004, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nate
Alright, here's a question for you guys:

I've been maintaining my bodyweight of about 170lbs for something like six months now. During that time, I managed to make small strength gains while eating essentially the same thing and staying the same weight. I like the way I look, so my goal is just to maintain, like I said before.

Now, in the past two weeks or so, I've noticed myself putting on a little bit of bodyfat while keeping my calories the same as they've been, as well as macronutrients. My training intensity has also been high. Is this a sign of overtraining? Maybe I should eat a little over maintenance for a week as far as calories are concerned? Maybe I should take a week off?

Still looking for an answer amidst the fireworks...!

**gopro** · 01-29-2004, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nate
Still looking for an answer amidst the fireworks...!

Many factors could be contributing to this. If you ARE in fact overtrained, the excess cortisol could be adding bodyfat to your frame. You may want to try this simple strategy and see what happens.

1- Lower your training intensity a bit by not taking any sets to failure in your workout. Keep volume the same, but basically, do not work as hard as usual.
2-Lower daily carbohydrate intake by 25 g and raise protein intake by 25 g.

Give this 2 weeks and see if your body normalizes.

**CowPimp** · 01-29-2004, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
I had said it was for strength not hypertrophy. You will def. need to modify the program for hypertrophy. The point of that post was to show the relationship between the volume and the intensity. You can see how it increases and decreases together.

Id also like for you to explain to me just how this program is dangerous?

Id also like to know what you have to go off this comment as well "doing olympic lifting is fine for a limited few who have been training for a long time"?

Kc

It is dangerous for anyone who doesn't have a spotter. As I said, most of the time I don't have one. As well, the chance for injury seems to increase with increased weight. I'm not worried about injury myself, as I am young. However, the lack of a spotter would definitely ruin me.

FortifiedIron · 01-29-2004, 06:33 PM

The chance of injury increases with anybody lifting weights.. dispit what they think they know. I do believe not long ago GoPro suffered a hamstring or quad injury getting ready for his contest?

As for the heavy weight, its not the weight that is the problem.. its the individual. There is plenty of research to support ballistic training, powerlifting, and olympic lifts as having less injuries then things such as aerobics and bodybuilding.

Kc

**CowPimp** · 01-29-2004, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
The chance of injury increases with anybody lifting weights.. dispit what they think they know. I do believe not long ago GoPro suffered a hamstring or quad injury getting ready for his contest?

As for the heavy weight, its not the weight that is the problem.. its the individual. There is plenty of research to support ballistic training, powerlifting, and olympic lifts as having less injuries then things such as aerobics and bodybuilding.

Kc

Alright, that may be true, but it is definitely dangerous if you don't have a spotter. Many people do not have the luxury of one.

Nate · 01-29-2004, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gopro
Many factors could be contributing to this. If you ARE in fact overtrained, the excess cortisol could be adding bodyfat to your frame. You may want to try this simple strategy and see what happens.

1- Lower your training intensity a bit by not taking any sets to failure in your workout. Keep volume the same, but basically, do not work as hard as usual.
2-Lower daily carbohydrate intake by 25 g and raise protein intake by 25 g.

Give this 2 weeks and see if your body normalizes.

Great, thank you.

I've definitely gotta shake things up a bit. I mean, my training is always varied, but my diet has been really really stagnant.

FortifiedIron · 01-29-2004, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CowPimp
Alright, that may be true, but it is definitely dangerous if you don't have a spotter. Many people do not have the luxury of one.

I've seen over 700lbs droped inside a rack while a guy was benching, didnt even leave a scratch on him. I've seen 1000+lb squats dumped, again.. no injury to the lifter.

I do however agree there is a need for spotters. Today i was getting handoffs with 315 in the bench from my g/f and another individual im training.

Kc

camarosuper6 · 01-30-2004, 11:55 AM

So Fort, would you mind giving me an example or maybe emailing me a program similar to your powerlifting one, but aimed for hypertrophy instead of strength?

Just curious.
Thanks

FortifiedIron · 01-30-2004, 01:41 PM

I'll have one posted shortly.

Kc

FortifiedIron · 01-30-2004, 03:27 PM

Week 1-2 (regular training)
Upper day 1:
Bench Press 3x6
Close grip 3x6
Push down 3x6
DB shrugs 3x6
Weighted pull ups 3xF
Military Press 3x6
Preacher Curls 3x6

Upper day 2:
Incline Press 3x6
Fly’s 3x6
Triceps extensions 3x6
Barbell Shrug 3x6
Upright Rows 3x6
Push Press 3x6
Barbell Curl 3x6

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x6
Leg Press 3x6
Good morning 3x6
Glut Ham Raise 3x6
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x6

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x6
Front Squat 3x6
Weighted Step-ups 3x6
High Pull 3x6
Standing Calf Raises 3x10

Loading phase 3-4 weeks
Upper day 1:
Flat bench 3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Iso-metric Plate raises 3x6 (5 Second pause at top)
Power Shrugs 3x8
Lat Pull downs 3x8
Bicep Curls 3x8

Upper day 2:
Incline DB press 3x8
Barbell overhead extensions 3x8
Barbell Curls 3x8
Iso-metric DB shrugs 5x5 (5 second pause at top)
Upright Rows 3x8
Push Press 3x8

Upper day 3:
Decline Bench Press 3x8
Weighted Dips 3x8
Preacher Curls 3x8
Seated DB Press 3x8
Dumbell Rows 3x8

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x8
Good Morning 3x8
Glut Ham Raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x8
Front Squat 3x8
Weighted Step-ups 3x8
Standing Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 3:
Leg Press 3x8
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8
Glut Ham raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10

Tapering 5-6 weeks

Upper day 1:
Bench 2x10
Close grip 2x10
Military Press 2x10
Upright row 2x10
Hammer Curls 2x10

Lower day 1:
Squat 2x10
Deadlift 2x10
Glut Ham raise 1x10
GM 2x10

myCATpowerlifts · 01-30-2004, 09:54 PM

REOOWWW!!!! SOUNDS LIKE A DAMNED CAT FIGHT....lol

myCATpowerlifts · 01-30-2004, 09:55 PM

Not to insult you in anyway fortified...but your *advanced, revolutionary* example program...looks exactly like a lot of other BB's out there. i even know some people who workout with me, that have very similar programs....

camarosuper6 · 01-31-2004, 12:31 PM

Fort, do you take all sets to failure, or do you leave a rep in the tank? This reminds me a lot of the DFHT program I tried. Do you workout each bodypart 2x per week as well, switching back and forth such as

Mon: Upper
Tues: Lower
Wed: Break
Thurs: Upper
Fri: Lower
Sat Off
Sun Off

Thanks
Dave

FortifiedIron · 01-31-2004, 12:52 PM

You never train to failure as it is not needed for hypertrophy. The only time you do train to failure is when there is a F next to the sets.

During the regular loading phase you train like that, during the overreaching phase you train everything 3x's a wk.

The principle is very similar to DFHT.

As for CATp. Id be interested to see how your friends train and periodize their program. Also if you go back and read you'll see that i said "this will change the way alot of them train" and it should. Im not doing anything but putting together years of research from some of the best scientist on earth, and the real popularity should go to those guys for doing.

Kc

camarosuper6 · 01-31-2004, 01:35 PM

Gotcha.

camarosuper6 · 01-31-2004, 01:38 PM

what about the HST principle of training 3 times per week because of the mRNA and ribosome factor (decreasing after 48 hours) ? You only believe in a 2 per week instead of 3 ?

Also, do u increase the weights during the overreaching phase or just increase reps with the same weight ?

Im curious because I dont exactly know how the program works.

FortifiedIron · 01-31-2004, 02:11 PM

You need to increase the loading volume (weight progressivly).

I believe in the mRN, ribosome and PS all subside after 36-48hrs of training.

Kc

camarosuper6 · 01-31-2004, 03:48 PM

Thanks, appreciate the input. Am looking forward to your finalized version so I can give it a run.

FortifiedIron · 01-31-2004, 10:49 PM

The thing is there isnt a program, its a set of principles to follow.

Kc

**gopro** · 01-31-2004, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
You never train to failure as it is not needed for hypertrophy. The only time you do train to failure is when there is a F next to the sets.

During the regular loading phase you train like that, during the overreaching phase you train everything 3x's a wk.

The principle is very similar to DFHT.

As for CATp. Id be interested to see how your friends train and periodize their program. Also if you go back and read you'll see that i said "this will change the way alot of them train" and it should. Im not doing anything but putting together years of research from some of the best scientist on earth, and the real popularity should go to those guys for doing.

Kc

Just a quick question for you Fortified. Do you EVER think there is a time that training to failure is necessary? And, is this effected at all by training age?

FortifiedIron · 01-31-2004, 11:30 PM

training to failure is a TOOL and only a tool. I would never suggest anybody train to failure on a regular bases due to the effects it has on the neverous system and motor endplates at the fiber.

As for age, that is hard to determine. I know peope who are 40yrs old bench pressing 850 and squat over 1k. Age does have a negative effect on one's ability to sustain stress over a given time period, but that is the job of the lifter to alter their training inorder to overcome that problem.
Kc

myCATpowerlifts · 02-01-2004, 11:14 AM

Bench press 850 LBS????
Isnt the world record like 805 right now????
fortified, youll have to prove it, b4 i even consider it

FortifiedIron · 02-01-2004, 11:20 AM

The bench press record is 900 now by Gene R., Scott Mendelson put up 875.23 for. Shawn Lattimer who at 26 (youngest bencher to bench over 800lbs) put up 835.

You can find vids and everything on FI.com

Kc

myCATpowerlifts · 02-01-2004, 11:36 AM

01-29-2004, 09:50 AM	#92
ponyboy Training Trainer Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Running around somewhere Posts: 2,608 Photos: 1	Ah - I took that to mean that it was an example of his program for others. My bad.
	Today I can do what others will not so that tomorrow I will do what others cannot. The difference between winners and losers is that winners do things that losers don't want to do.

01-29-2004, 12:30 PM	#93
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	That is a seriously intense strength program. I am definitely interested in gaining strength, but I rarely have a spotter. A routine like that would be dangerous for me, and probably most other people. However, it looks very effective.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

01-29-2004, 06:33 PM	#99
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	The chance of injury increases with anybody lifting weights.. dispit what they think they know. I do believe not long ago GoPro suffered a hamstring or quad injury getting ready for his contest? As for the heavy weight, its not the weight that is the problem.. its the individual. There is plenty of research to support ballistic training, powerlifting, and olympic lifts as having less injuries then things such as aerobics and bodybuilding. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-30-2004, 11:55 AM	#103
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	So Fort, would you mind giving me an example or maybe emailing me a program similar to your powerlifting one, but aimed for hypertrophy instead of strength? Just curious. Thanks
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-30-2004, 01:41 PM	#104
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	I'll have one posted shortly. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-29-2004, 01:16 PM	#94
x~factor Just Lurkin' Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Valley Stream, NY Posts: 243	So is there any truth to this? "There is no such thing as overtraining. Just under eating."

01-30-2004, 03:27 PM	#105
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	Week 1-2 (regular training) Upper day 1: Bench Press 3x6 Close grip 3x6 Push down 3x6 DB shrugs 3x6 Weighted pull ups 3xF Military Press 3x6 Preacher Curls 3x6 Upper day 2: Incline Press 3x6 Fly’s 3x6 Triceps extensions 3x6 Barbell Shrug 3x6 Upright Rows 3x6 Push Press 3x6 Barbell Curl 3x6 Lower day 1: Squat 3x6 Leg Press 3x6 Good morning 3x6 Glut Ham Raise 3x6 Straight Leg Deadlift 3x6 Lower day 2: Deadlift 3x6 Front Squat 3x6 Weighted Step-ups 3x6 High Pull 3x6 Standing Calf Raises 3x10 Loading phase 3-4 weeks Upper day 1: Flat bench 3x8 Skull Crushers 3x8 Iso-metric Plate raises 3x6 (5 Second pause at top) Power Shrugs 3x8 Lat Pull downs 3x8 Bicep Curls 3x8 Upper day 2: Incline DB press 3x8 Barbell overhead extensions 3x8 Barbell Curls 3x8 Iso-metric DB shrugs 5x5 (5 second pause at top) Upright Rows 3x8 Push Press 3x8 Upper day 3: Decline Bench Press 3x8 Weighted Dips 3x8 Preacher Curls 3x8 Seated DB Press 3x8 Dumbell Rows 3x8 Lower day 1: Squat 3x8 Good Morning 3x8 Glut Ham Raise 3x8 Seated Calf Raises 5x10 Lower day 2: Deadlift 3x8 Front Squat 3x8 Weighted Step-ups 3x8 Standing Calf Raises 5x10 Lower day 3: Leg Press 3x8 Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8 Glut Ham raise 3x8 Seated Calf Raises 5x10 Tapering 5-6 weeks Upper day 1: Bench 2x10 Close grip 2x10 Military Press 2x10 Upright row 2x10 Hammer Curls 2x10 Lower day 1: Squat 2x10 Deadlift 2x10 Glut Ham raise 1x10 GM 2x10
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-30-2004, 09:54 PM	#106
myCATpowerlifts Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The lone star state Posts: 6,261 Photos: 2	REOOWWW!!!! SOUNDS LIKE A DAMNED CAT FIGHT....lol

01-30-2004, 09:55 PM	#107
myCATpowerlifts Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The lone star state Posts: 6,261 Photos: 2	Not to insult you in anyway fortified...but your advanced, revolutionary example program...looks exactly like a lot of other BB's out there. i even know some people who workout with me, that have very similar programs....

01-31-2004, 12:31 PM	#108
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	Fort, do you take all sets to failure, or do you leave a rep in the tank? This reminds me a lot of the DFHT program I tried. Do you workout each bodypart 2x per week as well, switching back and forth such as Mon: Upper Tues: Lower Wed: Break Thurs: Upper Fri: Lower Sat Off Sun Off Thanks Dave
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-31-2004, 12:52 PM	#109
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	You never train to failure as it is not needed for hypertrophy. The only time you do train to failure is when there is a F next to the sets. During the regular loading phase you train like that, during the overreaching phase you train everything 3x's a wk. The principle is very similar to DFHT. As for CATp. Id be interested to see how your friends train and periodize their program. Also if you go back and read you'll see that i said "this will change the way alot of them train" and it should. Im not doing anything but putting together years of research from some of the best scientist on earth, and the real popularity should go to those guys for doing. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-31-2004, 01:35 PM	#110
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	Gotcha.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-31-2004, 01:38 PM	#111
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	what about the HST principle of training 3 times per week because of the mRNA and ribosome factor (decreasing after 48 hours) ? You only believe in a 2 per week instead of 3 ? Also, do u increase the weights during the overreaching phase or just increase reps with the same weight ? Im curious because I dont exactly know how the program works.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-31-2004, 02:11 PM	#112
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	You need to increase the loading volume (weight progressivly). I believe in the mRN, ribosome and PS all subside after 36-48hrs of training. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-31-2004, 03:48 PM	#113
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	Thanks, appreciate the input. Am looking forward to your finalized version so I can give it a run.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-31-2004, 10:49 PM	#114
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	The thing is there isnt a program, its a set of principles to follow. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-31-2004, 11:30 PM	#116
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	training to failure is a TOOL and only a tool. I would never suggest anybody train to failure on a regular bases due to the effects it has on the neverous system and motor endplates at the fiber. As for age, that is hard to determine. I know peope who are 40yrs old bench pressing 850 and squat over 1k. Age does have a negative effect on one's ability to sustain stress over a given time period, but that is the job of the lifter to alter their training inorder to overcome that problem. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

02-01-2004, 11:14 AM	#117
myCATpowerlifts Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The lone star state Posts: 6,261 Photos: 2	Bench press 850 LBS???? Isnt the world record like 805 right now???? fortified, youll have to prove it, b4 i even consider it

02-01-2004, 11:20 AM	#118
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	The bench press record is 900 now by Gene R., Scott Mendelson put up 875.23 for. Shawn Lattimer who at 26 (youngest bencher to bench over 800lbs) put up 835. You can find vids and everything on FI.com Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

02-01-2004, 11:36 AM	#119
myCATpowerlifts Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The lone star state Posts: 6,261 Photos: 2	wow!