Thread: Progress slow, try this.... my story about overtraining

i realize that may work for you, but not the majority. i have asked "upscale" BB's (meaning ones that have incredible physiques that have one contests, including a few pros) and they all think its crap. they can't tell me enough that it's the "lazy man syndrome". they say its for people that wanna be in the gym (like you said) for only 30 minutes at a time and want to go back to being lazy.

the main thing i took away was "there is no such thing as overtraining, only underrecuperating." meaning you can't do too many sets/reps, you can only not give your body enough food/rest b/w workouts. for example, if you do 30 sets for back, as long as you get enough nutrients and recovery time before your next workout, you will be good to go.

i dont know what to believe about exactly whether high or low volume works. alls i know is that i have made the best progress by going 4 days in a row, with 1 off. everyone told me it was "overtraining shmovertraining". but when i kept getting bigger, leaner and stronger, how is taht wrong?

HIT is a lazy mans routine? THAT is a joke.

I never said high volume was "wrong". I said you can make some progress from any basic routine, because most any routine will cause your muscles to adapt. Upscale BB's are on all kinds of steroids, usually in amounts that no normal person could afford or would want to stick in their body. Of course they can recouporate quickly. They could grow from any workout imginable.

Now this "lazy man" syndrome is absurd. The whole idea about HIT is you hit the gym so hard, that you couldnt possibly do higher volume at that intensity. You cannot train with maximum intensity for long periods of time. I mean MAXIMUM intensity. I dont know where you get the idea that if I train 30 min at full intensity and you train 2 hours at moderate intensity, that I am lazy?

And whats up with this "no such thing as overtraining, only underrecouperating" DUH. Your just saying the same thing in different words. Overtraining is when you dont rest enough. Underrecouperating is when you dont rest enough. Um...... ok?

Scientific evidence suggests high intensity is far superior to high volume as far as building muslce mass. HIT would work for the MAJORITY of people because the MAJORITY of people are not "high level bodybuilders" with loads of steroids in their system.

And BTW, Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates, Skip LaCour and Jeff Willet are all accomplished Pro Bodybuilders that use it. I dont know where you get the idea that BB's think its crap??? I DO think your post is a bit harsh and definitely not well written.

Originally posted by camarosuper6
I have been working out on and off for nearly 4 years, with the past two years being more serious. I have tried many types of workouts, many schemes, reps, diets and all the lot. The last month I have been doing something that has absolutely changed the way I look at working out forever and has done ABSOLUTE WONDERS for my physique.

I have been using HIT the last month. I believe, even if you choose not to use the exact HIT program, that High Intensity is THE most important factor to making serious results. Most of us know by now, any basic routine will allow some results. You exercise and your body adapts in one way or another. Maybe its not a quick as you like, or a strong as you like, but chances are you will see some kind of results. But to get the best results in the fastest amount of time is what everyones basic goal is. I doubt I have any arguments so far.

Doing a HIT program (there are many versions), you can pretty much do any exercises you like, as long as they are compound and the INTENSITY IS HIGH. I cannot stress that enough. INTENSITY is one half the reason my growth has been so impressive the past month. However, the other equally important factor is FREQUENCY. I seriously believe I have been overtraining my entire life. No joke. I believe 95 percent of people bodybuilding overtrain. Im not talking about 5 days a week, or split routines which are obviously overtraining ( at least for people not using steroids), but im talking about 4 times a week. Even 3 times a week.

I know what some people are thinking.... 3 times a week OVERTRAINING. Most people dont feel like they train enough doing 3 times a week. But I believe, for the average person using no steroids, that 3 times can defintely lead to overtraining.

I have made the BEST gains of my LIFE by working out once every 4 -5 days. That equals to 2 workouts a week and BARELY 2 a week. I also only workout for about 35 to 45 min per workout, doing NO MORE than 2 sets for an exercise. Usually just one. I may do 2 or 3 sets for a body part, doing a different exercise each time, and I always go to absolute positive failure. The key to this is INTENSITY which I cannot stress enough. INTENSITY puts huge stress on your body and you will need 4 or 5 days to fully recover for another workout. Do you think going nearly two weeks before working a certain muscle group is too long? Dont think that way. Try it. A normal person eating a healthy, high protein diet, with legal supplements (creatine, glutamine, even prohomones) need more time to recover than someone using an illegal steroid, which increases recovery time remarkably.

I dont mean to preach, I am simply sharing my experiences with you guys, hoping this will help those who are unhappy with the progress they are making, and even those who have been happy. Give it a month. Try reading the late great Mike Mentzer, who has published 4 or 5 books on HIT training, and now many other publications, articles and scientific research which claim high intensity, and low volume is the best way for to gain muscle mass quickly and safely.

This has worked wonders for me, and Im sure it will do the same for you.

Dave

What kind of HIT are you using? Are you using mentzers heavy duty routine?

I did the first week, but i dont really think pre-exaust techniques are the way to go often. I use a heavy approach. 8-10 reps two weeks. 4-6 reps two weeks. I rotate them. 2-3 times per week.

Working great so far

like i said before by "there's no such thing as overtraining, just underrecuperating...................meaning you can't do too many sets/reps, plus how you can only not give your body enough food/rest b/w workouts." meaning high volume overtraining is bullshit.

Scientific evidence suggests high intensity is far superior to high volume as far as building muslce mass??? oh really, i'd like to know where you got that info. if that were true, don't you tihnk EVERYONE would be using that as soon as that info came out? plus, I dont know where you get the idea that you can train your entire body in 2 30min workouts per week. i dont think it'll work for MOST normal people (non pros) as you call them, cuz most people don't go to "true" failure. they stop when it hurts...

Oh, and by the way, Dorian did NOT use HIT. that was told to me by Tom Prince, pro BB, who also said HIT is bullshit, and the "lazy man workout". He said he saw Dorian train numerous times, and he used to use around 10-12 working sets per bodypart, countrary to the popular belief that he used only a few.

Amazing. I'm not going to debate this, as you can do as you please, and I honestly don't care about how anyone trains:


Ever hear of cycling volume and intensity? I gather not. What "works," doesn't necessarily work absolutely.

A person who's trained HIT-style, and has switched over to GVT understands what I'm talking about. Anyone who has actually sat down and thought about all of this full well knows what I mean.

It's not always "this versus that," but rather:

How this works--for now, and why; and how that works--for now, and why.

And with that, I'm out.

Flex,

I know this is off the topic here, but what is M.I.L.F.?
I have heard this before but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it means.

Originally posted by Jim1954
Flex,

I know this is off the topic here, but what is M.I.L.F.?
I have heard this before but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it means.

M= mothers
I= I'd
L= like
to
F=fu**

Burner02,

Thanks! There MILF's all over the damn place!

I am here to help in any way I can..

Originally posted by Dante B.
Amazing. I'm not going to debate this, as you can do as you please, and I honestly don't care about how anyone trains:


Ever hear of cycling volume and intensity? I gather not. What "works," doesn't necessarily work absolutely.

A person who's trained HIT-style, and has switched over to GVT understands what I'm talking about. Anyone who has actually sat down and thought about all of this full well knows what I mean.

It's not always "this versus that," but rather:

How this works--for now, and why; and how that works--for now, and why.

And with that, I'm out.

Amen bro. You said it before I could. Congratulations on finding what works for you, but it isn't going to work for anyone. In fact, if you train that way long enough I'd wager that it will even stop working for you.

We all have to train for our own body and figure out what our body responds to best.

I must weigh in on this post: HIT is the most effective training method available, regardless whether the individual is juicing or is clean. The only problem that I see with the post orignator is that he is training too frequently. Myself, I train a full-body routine every 7-10 days, 3-4 sets per workout. I'm 42 yr. old, I'm 6 feet tall, I weigh 255 pounds, and I have 12% bodyfat. BTW, I am not genetically gifted, by any means; in addition, I use no supplements, I just eat healthy foods.

Yes, HIT is the way to go, and Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty Program, which is based upon HIT principles is very effective. Why would anyone want to spend one or more hours in a weight room four to sixdays per week when you could gain the same results training 15 min. every seven to 10 days?

P.S. Yes, the majority of successful BB have trained using a volume system, but so have the majority of the failures. Plus, those who have succeeded with volume are genetically gifted and/or using supplements of some kind (including steriods). If those same individuals had/would use HIT, they would make even better gains and in less time.

Originally posted by rburton
I must weigh in on this post: HIT is the most effective training method available, regardless whether the individual is juicing or is clean.

prove it

Originally posted by Dante B.
Ever hear of cycling volume and intensity? I gather not. What "works," doesn't necessarily work absolutely.

It's not always "this versus that," but rather:

How this works--for now, and why; and how that works--for now, and why.

thank you

Flex, prove what? If you want to learn about HIT/HD, and to do so with a rational approach, access high-intensity.net. Besides, what I posted is accurate. The majority of successess in BB have used volume, but they have used steroids as well; otherwise, explain how the successful pro BB has such distorted features? Furthermore,the majority of the failures have used volume training too. All you have to do to see this is to look around you in the gym. In other words, you want proof, but proof is useless unless you are willing and able to see training efficacy realistically and logically.

Look around in the gym? meaning everyone is not very muscular b/c they use high volume i assume your saying? Don't start that. When i look around in the gym, 95% of the people in there don't even know what the hell they're doing first of all, nevermind having to choose whether to use HIT or high volume.

You keep saying "the majority of the failures have used volume training too". Name ANY successful BB's that use HIT. i dont know any except a few that utter its B.S.

forget everyone pro BB's that use steroids. lets look at natural people. i know i've made the best success using high volume. all of my friends who BB religously like me use high volume. guys from my gym (and i am talking about MONSTERS), use high volume. they don't go to the gym for 15 min workouts?????? thats from my own personal experience...from a realistic and logical approach

Originally posted by rburton
HIT is the most effective training method available

Have you always trained HIT style?

Interesting, Flex. You state that 95% do not know what they are doing, but that you and your friends and guys from your gym (who are monsters, in your words) use volume training. Do those who do not know what they are doing train with volume? If so, then you proved my point. In addition, what about all the people who have trained but stopped because they made do gains using volume?

Originally posted by CaptainDeadlift
Have you always trained HIT style?

Hello, Captain Deadlift (perfect username, BTW, I wish I had thought of it). I've been training for 20 yr, during which I have used HIT for the past 17 yr.

Originally posted by rburton
Interesting, Flex. You state that 95% do not know what they are doing, but that you and your friends and guys from your gym (who are monsters, in your words) use volume training. Do those who do not know what they are doing train with volume? If so, then you proved my point. In addition, what about all the people who have trained but stopped because they made do gains using volume?

no, i said me and my friends (who are bigger than "typical" BB's)...............and guys from my gym who are monsters use volume.

by "not knowing what they're doing", i mean they don't know how to do this exercise correctly. therefore, whether they use HIT or high volume, it doesnt matter cuz they will never get the best results possible from either. most people that train but stopped b/c they made no gains using volume? dont know many of those. like i said, most people stop b/c they don't get the MOST outta their training, cuz they don't do it right.

so we've got "normal" people covered, lets talk pros. alls i know is, Tom Prince, pro BB, BEFORE he took juice, told me he, and MOST OTHERS BEFORE THEY JUICED, used high volume. He siad Dorian didnt use it, and NOONE did BEFORE THEY JUICED.


Dude, i really dont feel like argueing whats better. you do your HIT, i, and most people, will keep gaining w/ volume.
i got other more important shit to worry about.

Originally posted by rburton
The only problem that I see with the post orignator is that he is training too frequently. Myself, I train a full-body routine every 7-10 days, 3-4 sets per workout.

Enlighten us. You do a full body workout every 1 to 1-1/2 weeks. How do you accomplish working the entire body with 3 sets? Please post your workout.

i think i may have figured it out.....

1 set of deadlifts for: traps, overall back, forearms, secondary hitting the legs

1 set of squats for :quads, hams, secondary lower back

1 set of benchpress for : chest, tris, shoulders

repeat 1.5 weeks later

Sometimes when Dante posts I think... damn... that guy has a lot of not only knowledge, but common sense...

When I completely switch up my training style, i see the largest changes in my body... just like supplements, training needs to be cycled as well... I know there's alot more to it than what I know... but I do think changing workout styles and routines is of huge importance...

Originally posted by ponyboy
Amen bro. You said it before I could. Congratulations on finding what works for you, but it isn't going to work for anyone. In fact, if you train that way long enough I'd wager that it will even stop working for you.

We all have to train for our own body and figure out what our body responds to best.

Right on man. Find what works and go with it. Results are what keep us going!

Originally posted by rburton
Why would anyone want to spend one or more hours in a weight room four to sixdays per week when you could gain the same results training 15 min. every seven to 10 days?

Because workign out kicks ass...i been working out using gopro's routine 4 times a week and i am always looking forward to the next workout....i enjoy it a lot.....GoPRo....ur routine kicks ass man...i have seen great gains and enjoy his routine greatly........ur a genius

Why would anyone want to spend one or more hours in a weight room four to sixdays per week when you could gain the same results training 15 min. every seven to 10 days?

Because the results aren't the same (beyond the surface), nor are they constant (for that fact).

I'll toss you several more thoughts, then I'm out again (I'll let everyone figure out how to apply this):



A) If you take a muscle relaxing drug, and can't lift as much weight, did you actually lose real strength? Think of this, and think of how this concept applies to what is typically called "overtraining." Hint: If you can't use it, you can't stimulate it. Often, a loss of strength, and hence muscle mass, has nothing to do with the muscle itself. In that case, the intensity of the stimulation has to be reduced in frequency or force.


B) The body adapts through the process of learning. Gaining strength as well as muscle mass is often viewed (it seems) as a process that's separate from learning itself (and thus, adaptation).

If you studied your brains out, will you actually retain all of that information? What if you didn't study enough? Is there a balance to be struck? Or a cyclical approach to learning and stimulation that must be heeded in order to make consistent progress in memory retention (and think of gains of muscle and strength as memory retention and recall).

What if the demands on your brain weren't met with sufficient nutritional fuel? Perhaps it's not the method of studying that's faulty, but rather the demands that one is placing on their mind without providing the required energy source.

C) "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results"

Perhaps this maxim shoud be applied to your training as well, with a slight change:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, forever hoping that you'll never milk that cow dry. When you're parched with thirst, always be on the lookout for a deal on a new cow.

When I look at the training programs of the majority, I see either a cow that's never had an owner who knew how to milk it (proceeding blindly), or an owner who has yet to realize that he's been milking a dead cow.




Have fun. Mentzerites are my favourite snack.

Originally posted by JerseyPaul
Enlighten us. You do a full body workout every 1 to 1-1/2 weeks. How do you accomplish working the entire body with 3 sets? Please post your workout.

I rotate between two workouts

Workout A
Squat or Leg Press
Weighted Dip
Prone Row

Workout B
Deadlift
Overhead Press or Incline Bench
Weighted Chin

Each set is taken to momentary muscular failure using a 10/10 rep cadence, though I will cycle other rep cadences that are no faster than 4/4.

I have never used steroids or any kind of supplements. I have used HIT with a split routine, when I have sufficient time to recover between workouts because job demands and other life demands are low, and I have had good success training more frequently, about every 3-5 days. However, during the past year, I have had tremendous demands on my time, both work and family, so I have implemented the routine posted above. To give you an idea of the effectiveness of the routine, I am 6 feet tall, weigh 250# with 12% BF, and I am 42 yr old, working a job that takes 60+ hr per week. So, I find HIT effective and efficient. BTW, I do no aerobics, I just eat a sensible diet.

Originally posted by Dante B.
Because the results aren't the same (beyond the surface), nor are they constant (for that fact).

I'll toss you several more thoughts, then I'm out again (I'll let everyone figure out how to apply this):



A) If you take a muscle relaxing drug, and can't lift as much weight, did you actually lose real strength? Think of this, and think of how this concept applies to what is typically called "overtraining." Hint: If you can't use it, you can't stimulate it. Often, a loss of strength, and hence muscle mass, has nothing to do with the muscle itself. In that case, the intensity of the stimulation has to be reduced in frequency or force.


B) The body adapts through the process of learning. Gaining strength as well as muscle mass is often viewed (it seems) as a process that's separate from learning itself (and thus, adaptation).

If you studied your brains out, will you actually retain all of that information? What if you didn't study enough? Is there a balance to be struck? Or a cyclical approach to learning and stimulation that must be heeded in order to make consistent progress in memory retention (and think of gains of muscle and strength as memory retention and recall).

What if the demands on your brain weren't met with sufficient nutritional fuel? Perhaps it's not the method of studying that's faulty, but rather the demands that one is placing on their mind without providing the required energy source.

C) "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results"

Perhaps this maxim shoud be applied to your training as well, with a slight change:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, forever hoping that you'll never milk that cow dry. When you're parched with thirst, always be on the lookout for a deal on a new cow.

When I look at the training programs of the majority, I see either a cow that's never had an owner who knew how to milk it (proceeding blindly), or an owner who has yet to realize that he's been milking a dead cow.




Have fun. Mentzerites are my favourite snack.

Thank you for agreeing with my posts, even if you did not realize you were doing so. All people are the same, even though genetic and cultural variations are present. Therefore, we all learn and gain physically in the same way, though there may not be a difference in the degree or level of gaining/learning in the actual systemic process of learning/gaining. For instance, you mention that insanity is doing the same thing repetitively, expecting the same results--I agree with you completely; however, Mike Mentzer stated that we neeed to be our own personal trainers, which means that we must apply the principles of exercise physiology to determine the most effective method for gaining strength/mass for those of us who strength train. To further clarify my position, consider the following: Train with either a split or full body routine, no more than 4 sets per workout for 6 months. While doing this, make sure that you take each set to momentary muscular failure (which requires more effort and energy than most people think). In addition, train only once every 4-7 days. Once you have truly experienced HIT/HD, you will be in a better position to make statements about insanity. (BTW I am a Psychologist by training so I know what constitutes insanity.)

Note: When conducting your experiment so that you may collect accurate empirical evidence, refrain from performing aerobics; however, it is acceptable to eat a healthy diet.