eliminate shoulders?

jadakris31 · 12-30-2003, 06:14 PM

how can i work on not hitting my shoulders so much on chest day

when i bench i pull my shoulderblades together -- what else i can i do? my anterior deltoids get so sore.. right now they are still and tomorrow is shoulder day????

any ideas?

Yanick · 12-30-2003, 06:20 PM

keep your back arched (don't bridge, thats bad), don't flare your elbows and keep your shoulder blades together. Thats PL deadlift form, but i use it because otherwise my tendonitis starts to act up. Aside from that you can't really eliminate shoulders from bench pressing or pretty much any other chest movement (unless you start talking bout declines).

If you do a lot of incline work you might want to cut down on that.

**Prince** · 12-30-2003, 06:27 PM

well, it's kind of impossible to eliminate the shoulders, but you could do more dumbbell work, e.g. flat dumbbell flyes.

**Mudge** · 12-30-2003, 06:32 PM

Where do you touch on the chest? Have you read the article in my signature?

Shoulders used to bother me when I had my elbows out in outer space.

Downtown Guy · 12-30-2003, 06:44 PM

I struggled with the same problem. My current solution may not work for you, but I simply decided to work chest, shoulders and triceps in the same workout. For many of you, that's probably too many bodyparts in one workout. But the Push/Pull/Legs routine works for me.

Yanick · 12-31-2003, 10:13 AM

Push-Pull-Legs-Rest repeat, is actually a great split. Use less volume as your frequency will be higher, but its not a bad split at all...and it is not just for beginners.

jadakris31 · 12-31-2003, 10:41 AM

why do you say .. ((unless you start talking bout declines).
does decline not hit the chest too much??

the try to have the bar hit my lower chest ....

and so i dont want to have my elbows out?where else would they go??

Yanick · 12-31-2003, 10:47 AM

I meant declines will eliminate shoulders more than any other chest movement.

Monolith · 12-31-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Where do you touch on the chest? Have you read the article in my signature?

Shoulders used to bother me when I had my elbows out in outer space.

But by bringing the elbows closer in to your torso, wont that hit the triceps a lot more?

That's the form i use for CG bench...

**Mudge** · 12-31-2003, 11:33 AM

I dont care about any "but," without doing that I cannot bench heavy without pain to my shoulders, and I bench less as well FWIW. So for me it is neccessity and nothing else. So its either live in pain or bench heavy, obviously I chose the one that didn't hurt

I go low on the chest and that helps me bring my elbows in somewhat, not to say they are rubbing my rib cage or anything but they are not way out there. I practiced my form for about a week before I had all the steps down, so just lying on the bench like a dead fish doesn't cut it, there is definitely some prep involved.

I normally do declines instead of flat bench now, although I may start with a set of flat to see where my strength is since that is what people look at numbers wise so frequently.

**Prince** · 12-31-2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yanick
I meant declines will eliminate shoulders more than any other chest movement.

agreed.

Pepper · 12-31-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yanick
I meant declines will eliminate shoulders more than any other chest movement.

When my shoulder was injured I did ONLY decline barbell and decline dumbell presses b/c they work the chest with little (no?) shoulder involvment.

jadakris31 · 12-31-2003, 02:23 PM

how good is decline for building chest mass compared to flat and incline .. im doing gopros workout so but always throw in 2 sets of decline after flat/incline, but maybe ill throw in more sets of decline and less flat incline? thoughts?

**Mudge** · 12-31-2003, 02:27 PM

Declines to me are like dips, great for the chest.

Yanick · 12-31-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jadakris31
how good is decline for building chest mass compared to flat and incline .. im doing gopros workout so but always throw in 2 sets of decline after flat/incline, but maybe ill throw in more sets of decline and less flat incline? thoughts?

I would answer your question but i fear a monster debate will follow about isolating different parts of your chest. A search will definitely bring up a few threads about it...its NYE and i want to stay in good spirits so i won't say much but a short answer would be i pretty much agree with Mudge.

**Prince** · 12-31-2003, 04:05 PM

here is a short and consise answer that will not spark another "chest isolation" debate...

use all angles to build your chest: flat, incline and decline.

Var · 12-31-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Prince
here is a short and consise answer that will not spark another "chest isolation" debate...

use all angles to build your chest: flat, incline and decline.

Prince, are u trying to say incline presses wont build my upper chest???

**Prince** · 12-31-2003, 04:39 PM

if you believe that they will, then yes they will

Var · 12-31-2003, 04:48 PM

Just messin with ya. Got myself into that debate here a few days ago. I'll never learn.

gr81 · 12-31-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jadakris31
how good is decline for building chest mass compared to flat and incline .. im doing gopros workout so but always throw in 2 sets of decline after flat/incline, but maybe ill throw in more sets of decline and less flat incline? thoughts?

the decline b-bell press recruits more fibers in teh chest than any other pressing movement if I remember correctly.

A pre-exaustion technique can help with recruiting less fibers in the shoulders and more on the chest while pressing, although as said before there is no way to eliminate the shoulders form the movement.

Monolith · 01-01-2004, 05:42 PM

So if a decline press is just as effective as a flat or incline press, why aren't declines more popular? Or to take it even further, why does anyone even do flat or incline presses when a decline press can isolate the pecs much better?

JerseyDevil · 01-01-2004, 06:04 PM

Actually in my gym declines probably ARE more popular then inclines. I prefer flat and incline, and occasional declines to mix things up. Don't know if I agree that declines isolate the pecs better, in fact I saw a study (yeah studies are a dime a dozen) that measured pectoral fiber recruitment, and the flat bench and decline were about the same.

I contend that if you only want to work pecs, then forward leaning dips are the way to go. But in my mind, the bench press is not just for working the pecs. It is a compound movement, and one of the best for developing the pecs, frontal deltoids, and triceps. If decline reduces the stress on the shoulders, then it really isn't as effective as an overall mass builder, is it?

**P-funk** · 01-01-2004, 06:09 PM

Declines are actually great as an overall mass builder because of the angele you are at. Lying down like that places the movement in between 2 planes of motion, the frontal plane (adduction of the shoulder) and the transverse plane (horizontal flexion of the shoulder). this ensures that you are working both the sternocostal and the clavicular portion of pec major, something that doesn't really happen to this extent when performing inclines and flat bench. I feel that declines are really underarted and a great way to add some serious size to your chest.

**Mudge** · 01-01-2004, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monolith
So if a decline press is just as effective as a flat or incline press, why aren't declines more popular?

How many people actually know all that much about what they are doing anyway? How many people are really all that developed or study the stuff?

Declines are traditionally popular even with people who DONT train that often or know what they are doing, because you can usually do more on them. Hitting the decline bench throws an easy 40 pounds or so on my bench.

Monolith · 01-01-2004, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
How many people actually know all that much about what they are doing anyway? How many people are really all that developed or study the stuff?

Declines are traditionally popular even with people who DONT train that often or know what they are doing, because you can usually do more on them. Hitting the decline bench throws an easy 40 pounds or so on my bench.

Why can you do more with a decline? Ive been getting the impression that flat and incline use both the pecs and delts to move the weight, and that declines use only the pecs. Why is it possible to move so much more weight when using just one muscle group versus two? Or is that an example of how inefficiently flat and incline benchs normally hit the pecs?

**Mudge** · 01-01-2004, 08:01 PM

Why is it harder to move the weight on a steep incline? More shoulder, less power of the lats and chest as on a flat or decline. Where you touch down on the chest on a decline also allows for shorter travel, which is also part of bench technique and even genetics. I never use less than 3 plates on the decline

12-30-2003, 06:14 PM	#1
jadakris31 jersey's here Join Date: May 2003 Location: nj Posts: 390 Photos: 1	eliminate shoulders? BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com how can i work on not hitting my shoulders so much on chest day when i bench i pull my shoulderblades together -- what else i can i do? my anterior deltoids get so sore.. right now they are still and tomorrow is shoulder day???? any ideas?
	somehow trying to get the abs but bulk at the same time.......

12-30-2003, 06:20 PM	#2
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,791	keep your back arched (don't bridge, thats bad), don't flare your elbows and keep your shoulder blades together. Thats PL deadlift form, but i use it because otherwise my tendonitis starts to act up. Aside from that you can't really eliminate shoulders from bench pressing or pretty much any other chest movement (unless you start talking bout declines). If you do a lot of incline work you might want to cut down on that.
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,791	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

12-30-2003, 06:27 PM	#3
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,176 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	well, it's kind of impossible to eliminate the shoulders, but you could do more dumbbell work, e.g. flat dumbbell flyes.
	Support the Board Sponsors: SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements AtLargeNutrition - Optimize Your Body MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal IronMagazine Nutrition Warehouse - discount bodybuilding supplements

12-30-2003, 06:32 PM	#4
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,944 Photos: 1	Where do you touch on the chest? Have you read the article in my signature? Shoulders used to bother me when I had my elbows out in outer space.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-31-2003, 10:13 AM	#6
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,791	Push-Pull-Legs-Rest repeat, is actually a great split. Use less volume as your frequency will be higher, but its not a bad split at all...and it is not just for beginners.
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,791	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

12-30-2003, 06:44 PM	#5
Downtown Guy Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 121	I struggled with the same problem. My current solution may not work for you, but I simply decided to work chest, shoulders and triceps in the same workout. For many of you, that's probably too many bodyparts in one workout. But the Push/Pull/Legs routine works for me.

12-31-2003, 10:41 AM	#7
jadakris31 jersey's here Join Date: May 2003 Location: nj Posts: 390 Photos: 1	why do you say .. ((unless you start talking bout declines). does decline not hit the chest too much?? the try to have the bar hit my lower chest .... and so i dont want to have my elbows out?where else would they go??
	somehow trying to get the abs but bulk at the same time.......

12-31-2003, 10:47 AM	#8
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,791	I meant declines will eliminate shoulders more than any other chest movement.
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,791	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

12-31-2003, 11:33 AM	#10
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,944 Photos: 1	I dont care about any "but," without doing that I cannot bench heavy without pain to my shoulders, and I bench less as well FWIW. So for me it is neccessity and nothing else. So its either live in pain or bench heavy, obviously I chose the one that didn't hurt I go low on the chest and that helps me bring my elbows in somewhat, not to say they are rubbing my rib cage or anything but they are not way out there. I practiced my form for about a week before I had all the steps down, so just lying on the bench like a dead fish doesn't cut it, there is definitely some prep involved. I normally do declines instead of flat bench now, although I may start with a set of flat to see where my strength is since that is what people look at numbers wise so frequently.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-31-2003, 02:23 PM	#13
jadakris31 jersey's here Join Date: May 2003 Location: nj Posts: 390 Photos: 1	how good is decline for building chest mass compared to flat and incline .. im doing gopros workout so but always throw in 2 sets of decline after flat/incline, but maybe ill throw in more sets of decline and less flat incline? thoughts?
	somehow trying to get the abs but bulk at the same time.......

12-31-2003, 02:27 PM	#14
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,944 Photos: 1	Declines to me are like dips, great for the chest.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

12-31-2003, 04:05 PM	#16
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,176 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	here is a short and consise answer that will not spark another "chest isolation" debate... use all angles to build your chest: flat, incline and decline.
	Support the Board Sponsors: SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements AtLargeNutrition - Optimize Your Body MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal IronMagazine Nutrition Warehouse - discount bodybuilding supplements

12-31-2003, 04:39 PM	#18
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,176 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	if you believe that they will, then yes they will
	Support the Board Sponsors: SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements AtLargeNutrition - Optimize Your Body MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal IronMagazine Nutrition Warehouse - discount bodybuilding supplements

12-31-2003, 04:48 PM	#19
Var Filthy Animal Join Date: May 2002 Location: Finally back in New England!! Posts: 5,438	Just messin with ya. Got myself into that debate here a few days ago. I'll never learn.

01-01-2004, 05:42 PM	#21
Monolith OMGWTFBBQ Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: MA Posts: 4,002	So if a decline press is just as effective as a flat or incline press, why aren't declines more popular? Or to take it even further, why does anyone even do flat or incline presses when a decline press can isolate the pecs much better?
	http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~ek867/dexamyl.jpg

01-01-2004, 06:04 PM	#22
JerseyDevil Done Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Southern, NJ Posts: 5,175	Actually in my gym declines probably ARE more popular then inclines. I prefer flat and incline, and occasional declines to mix things up. Don't know if I agree that declines isolate the pecs better, in fact I saw a study (yeah studies are a dime a dozen) that measured pectoral fiber recruitment, and the flat bench and decline were about the same. I contend that if you only want to work pecs, then forward leaning dips are the way to go. But in my mind, the bench press is not just for working the pecs. It is a compound movement, and one of the best for developing the pecs, frontal deltoids, and triceps. If decline reduces the stress on the shoulders, then it really isn't as effective as an overall mass builder, is it?

01-01-2004, 06:09 PM	#23
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,223	Declines are actually great as an overall mass builder because of the angele you are at. Lying down like that places the movement in between 2 planes of motion, the frontal plane (adduction of the shoulder) and the transverse plane (horizontal flexion of the shoulder). this ensures that you are working both the sternocostal and the clavicular portion of pec major, something that doesn't really happen to this extent when performing inclines and flat bench. I feel that declines are really underarted and a great way to add some serious size to your chest.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

01-01-2004, 08:01 PM	#26
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,944 Photos: 1	Why is it harder to move the weight on a steep incline? More shoulder, less power of the lats and chest as on a flat or decline. Where you touch down on the chest on a decline also allows for shorter travel, which is also part of bench technique and even genetics. I never use less than 3 plates on the decline
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks