Overtraining?

FortifiedIron · 01-05-2004, 01:24 PM

See the problem with only training each body part is that protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF, and mRN levels return back to normal around 36-48hrs. So all and all you basicly spend 2 days growing and the rest is just basicly balancing nitrogen levels in the body till you train again. You can reload a muscle as soon as 36hrs after training. I have about 26 pages of studies to support this view, but I cant post them for various reasons. (Being used in a book)

There is a little bit more to this then what I posted, but that is also the foundation behind the Fitness Fatigue Model. Training a bodypart only once per week is the Single Factor model.

This isnt a knock to Prince, but if your going to train a muscle or muscle group twice a wk you have to know how to organize your training and stress levels. You got to know how much to load and how much deloading you need among alot of other things. This is where using periodization either linear or conjugated (bloc or basic progression) is good.

There is alot of understanding things before you can effectivly train using a training routine like this using this model.

Kc

Brak86 · 01-05-2004, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by plouffe
That's a pretty strange -- how's it workin for you? I do something more along the lines of :

Week 1 // Concentrate on upper chest
Week 2 // Concentrate on lower chest
Week 3 // Concentrate on middle chest

Each week I'll still do basic chest movements that hit the entire chest. By cycling the excerises like this allows me to maximzine my gains.

see what im saying is if u do week 1 upper chest, week 2 lower, and week 3 middle...that means u wait about 3 weeks before u do upper chest again....and how will that increase strength in upper chest?

Dante B. · 01-05-2004, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by plouffe
I noticed you work your legs two (2) times a week. You have to understand that larger muscle groups take longer to recooperate - such as legs, and back. I'd suggest you write up a new split -- and take all the advice given.

You have to be kidding me.

Seriously. Does anyone here understand context? Volume, intensity, frequency, and how this plays into everything?

Even then, for those who have trained more frequently before, that doesn't tell me much. Actually, it doesn't tell me anything unless I know what the relevant details of the program were (volume, intensity--primarily).

Also realize that it's not in my particular interest if anyone follows my advice

It's free for the taking, if you wish to use it.

Dante B. · 01-05-2004, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
See the problem with only training each body part is that protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF, and mRN levels return back to normal around 36-48hrs. So all and all you basicly spend 2 days growing and the rest is just basicly balancing nitrogen levels in the body till you train again. You can reload a muscle as soon as 36hrs after training. I have about 26 pages of studies to support this view, but I cant post them for various reasons. (Being used in a book)

There is a little bit more to this then what I posted, but that is also the foundation behind the Fitness Fatigue Model. Training a bodypart only once per week is the Single Factor model.

This isnt a knock to Prince, but if your going to train a muscle or muscle group twice a wk you have to know how to organize your training and stress levels. You got to know how much to load and how much deloading you need among alot of other things. This is where using periodization either linear or conjugated (bloc or basic progression) is good.

There is alot of understanding things before you can effectivly train using a training routine like this using this model.

Kc

By Jove!

A brain in action!

That understands contexts!

And what they are in this case!

And how they apply!

There is hope for humanity yet.

FortifiedIron · 01-05-2004, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante B.
By Jove!

A brain in action!

That understands contexts!

And what they are in this case!

And how they apply!

There is hope for humanity yet.

lol, well I have a rather good idea of using periodization, both models. With periodization anything is possible and once you understand it.. we all know why its superior!

The whole concept is impossible to use if you dont know how to apply it correctly.

Kc

Brak86 · 01-05-2004, 08:29 PM

why am i still confused

FortifiedIron · 01-05-2004, 08:31 PM

btw.. I will be publishing a rather lengthy article on periodization rather soon. Then im probably going to publish a series of articles on Single Factor and Fitness Fatigue models.

Kc

Brak86 · 01-05-2004, 08:39 PM

so if i do 3-4 exercises for each muscle and do i do those muscles 3x a week....i wont overtrain? i see u all saying working the same muscle group 2x a week is sufficient, but i bet u all do 8 different exercises for each muscle....am i correct?

Dante B. · 01-05-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
lol, well I have a rather good idea of using periodization, both models. With periodization anything is possible and once you understand it.. we all know why its superior!

The whole concept is impossible to use if you dont know how to apply it correctly.

Kc

When I set up a basic push/pull for someone, I make it idiot-proof in a way, in terms of keeping the overall volume low enough, making certain that they avoid purposefully training to failure.

It's also why I tell them to do a push/pull/off/repeat split, whereas I, train instinctively after learning how my body works, and knowing what signals to look for.

For many people, without guidance, they'll just mess it up because they will not lower their volume or intensity, due in part to their ignorance of the essential concepts.

Even on a one-bodypart-per-week training regimen, gains can be definitely had, if one understands the concepts. That's why I think failure-training, on some level, necessary on that split.

It's also why I prefer a 4 day on, 1 day off split, if I'm going to do something different. Occasionally, it is fun, and beneficial, just to hammer the hell out of your muscles.

But that's when periodization comes into play.

Dante B. · 01-05-2004, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FortifiedIron
btw.. I will be publishing a rather lengthy article on periodization rather soon. Then im probably going to publish a series of articles on Single Factor and Fitness Fatigue models.

Kc

I look forward to it!

Please let me know when it's up

Quote:

why am i still confused

My inner-child has Down's Syndrome. Perhaps it would be easier to understand me if I wasn't slobbering all over myself.

Quote:

so if i do 3-4 exercises for each muscle and do i do those muscles 3x a week....i wont overtrain? i see u all saying working the same muscle group 2x a week is sufficient, but i bet u all do 8 different exercises for each muscle....am i correct?

Then if you do a push/pull with a Day1A, Day1B split, you can pick another two exercises for day B.

Overtraining has nothing to do with frequency alone. Anyone who says "you'll end up overtraining," just by looking at the frequency alone (e.g. "two times per week? You'll overtrain!") displays an abysmal ignorance to this issue.

Brak86 · 01-05-2004, 08:58 PM

thank you dante...finally im pretty satisfied...ahaha jk u all have been great advice i dont kno what i would do without u all.

FortifiedIron · 01-05-2004, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante B.
When I set up a basic push/pull for someone, I make it idiot-proof in a way, in terms of keeping the overall volume low enough, making certain that they avoid purposefully training to failure.

It's also why I tell them to do a push/pull/off/repeat split, whereas I, train instinctively after learning how my body works, and knowing what signals to look for.

For many people, without guidance, they'll just mess it up because they will not lower their volume or intensity, due in part to their ignorance of the essential concepts.

Even on a one-bodypart-per-week training regimen, gains can be definitely had, if one understands the concepts. That's why I think failure-training, on some level, necessary on that split.

It's also why I prefer a 4 day on, 1 day off split, if I'm going to do something different. Occasionally, it is fun, and beneficial, just to hammer the hell out of your muscles.

But that's when periodization comes into play.

The way i train it is pretty complex. My next Meso-cycle alone is 26 pages long lol

Im doing a 6wk Russian Squat program by Glenn Pendlay while working on lacking things.. ie trap strength, lat strenght etc..

But once im done with this its on to another bench peaking cycle for 4wks that I designed.

Once im done with that im gunna go to the Greek method of training. It will basicly be 3 wks of loading followed by 2 wks deloading. Set up like this:

Monday-Deadlift/back/Traps
Tuesday- Raw (warm up)/Shirt/Rack work
Wednesday- extra workout
Thursday- Squat/legs
Friday- Board/Tricep/Delts/Lats

Im not sure how i'll cycle my loading values or my stress points. I know that i'll do 6wks of loading and 4 wks of deloading overall. On the deloading im going to basicly revert to speed work mostly and the overal volume/intensity drops. For my second 3wk cycle i'll increase my overal volume/intensity. The key i think is being able to keep the volume relativly constant even with the increase in intensity. By making the intensity and volume linear to one another you depict your adaption, because our bodies dont adapt in a linear fashion, which it also decreases the overal stress.

Im also going to keep taps on heart rate, and im looking into how to do blood metabolic profiles. I doubt i'll do that but id still like to learn about it. Its pretty easily to gauge when you need a rest or how close you are to overtraining by monitoring your blood hormon levels.

And for those who said training was simple.. yeah right!

Kc

FortifiedIron · 01-05-2004, 10:39 PM

btw.. on the 6 wk sq method for my lats/traps im going to be playing with some isometric work. First time i'll be doing so, and im really lookin forward to it!

But the thing with isometrics, training to failure, supersets..etc.. is knowing they are nothing but training TOOLS, not what you need to base your program on only. I've covered training to failure on a regular bases down to the motor end plates, motor cortex and even CNS firing.

Kc

01-05-2004, 01:24 PM	#31
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com See the problem with only training each body part is that protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF, and mRN levels return back to normal around 36-48hrs. So all and all you basicly spend 2 days growing and the rest is just basicly balancing nitrogen levels in the body till you train again. You can reload a muscle as soon as 36hrs after training. I have about 26 pages of studies to support this view, but I cant post them for various reasons. (Being used in a book) There is a little bit more to this then what I posted, but that is also the foundation behind the Fitness Fatigue Model. Training a bodypart only once per week is the Single Factor model. This isnt a knock to Prince, but if your going to train a muscle or muscle group twice a wk you have to know how to organize your training and stress levels. You got to know how much to load and how much deloading you need among alot of other things. This is where using periodization either linear or conjugated (bloc or basic progression) is good. There is alot of understanding things before you can effectivly train using a training routine like this using this model. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-05-2004, 08:29 PM	#36
Brak86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 230	why am i still confused
Brak86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 230	Good, bad, im the guy with the gun-Army of Darkness Weight:147 pounds DB Incline Press: Repping 70 lbs in each hand. Standing curls: Repping 60 lbs (thats all i remember for now!)

01-05-2004, 08:31 PM	#37
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	btw.. I will be publishing a rather lengthy article on periodization rather soon. Then im probably going to publish a series of articles on Single Factor and Fitness Fatigue models. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

01-05-2004, 08:39 PM	#38
Brak86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 230	so if i do 3-4 exercises for each muscle and do i do those muscles 3x a week....i wont overtrain? i see u all saying working the same muscle group 2x a week is sufficient, but i bet u all do 8 different exercises for each muscle....am i correct?
Brak86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 230	Good, bad, im the guy with the gun-Army of Darkness Weight:147 pounds DB Incline Press: Repping 70 lbs in each hand. Standing curls: Repping 60 lbs (thats all i remember for now!)

01-05-2004, 08:58 PM	#41
Brak86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 230	thank you dante...finally im pretty satisfied...ahaha jk u all have been great advice i dont kno what i would do without u all.
Brak86 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 230	Good, bad, im the guy with the gun-Army of Darkness Weight:147 pounds DB Incline Press: Repping 70 lbs in each hand. Standing curls: Repping 60 lbs (thats all i remember for now!)

01-05-2004, 10:39 PM	#43
FortifiedIron Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 144	btw.. on the 6 wk sq method for my lats/traps im going to be playing with some isometric work. First time i'll be doing so, and im really lookin forward to it! But the thing with isometrics, training to failure, supersets..etc.. is knowing they are nothing but training TOOLS, not what you need to base your program on only. I've covered training to failure on a regular bases down to the motor end plates, motor cortex and even CNS firing. Kc
	Http://www.FortifiedIron.com RKM Training Solutions, LLC l Per Ferrum, as Astra-Mel Siff

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