OverTraining or Not???

jaybol10 · 03-31-2004, 07:01 PM

Hi everyone!
Newbie on the site but I been trying to do some research on overtraining. I saw everyones post and I have a question

Alot of searchs said overtraining is bad. But all they say is for example: Chest no more than 5 sets.

Well does that mean 5 sets entire chest routine?
Or does it mean no more than...
5 sets incline press
5 sets flat bench
5 sets machine flies
5 sets Decline press
total= 20 sets

I have been on a diet routine and lost a total of 120lbs I now stand 6'4 230lbs but I am fat for a bodybuilder and have no muslce strenth Max bench press is usually 65lbs for dumbell presses and 140 for flat bench press.

Bassically because I been doing a 100 rep light light weight routine to drop the fat. Now I want to bulk up with the left over fat I got then eventually trim that out.

Soooo I divised a workout plan based on alot of research tell me what you guys think!

Mon Wed Friday
20min medium cardio
chest-
Incline press Smith Machine - 4sets 10warm, 15, 12, 8

Flat bench Smith Machine - 4 sets 10warm, 15,12,8

Decline press - 4 sets 10warm,15,12,8

Peck Deck - 4 sets 10warm,15,12,8

Close grip Pushups - 4 sets 10warm,15,12,8

back
Weight Assisted Pullups 3 set to failure for warm up

Pulldowns 4 sets rest pause 15,20,12,8

Machine rows 4 sets rest pause 15,20,12,8

Str arm pushdowns 4 sets rest pause 15,20,12,8

Hyperextensions 4 sets of 20 using bodyweight only

Smith Machine dead Lift 3 sets 15,12,8

calves
Calve presses 4 sets of 10 using 180lbs on leg press

bis
Standing Curls 3 sets using 40,50,70lbs reps are 10 8 6

Preacher curls 2 sets 30 lbs to failure

Incline seated Spirulted dumbell curls 2 sets of 20lbs to failure

Then my Tues Thur Sat workout is
20min medium cardio

Quads and Hams
Leg press 2 sets 180lbs 10x and then 270lbs 10x

Leg extensions 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x

lying Hamstring curl 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x

Hamstring press 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x

Abductor machine 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x

Heavy Leg Press 2 sets 300lb 8x 400lb 6x

Triceps
Lying trcipe exten 3 sets 25lb 10x 30lb 8x 35lb 6x

tricep pushdowns 3 sets 35lb 10x 40lb 8x 45lb 6x

Machine dips 2 sets heavy failure

Shoulders
Presses 4 sets 10lb, 25lb, 35lb, 45lb reps are 15,12,10,8

lat raises 4sets 10lb, 25lb,20lb 25lb reps = 15,8,12,6

front raises 4 sets 10lb, 25lb,20lb 25lb reps = 15,8,12,6

shrugs 3 sets 50lb 70lb 90lb reps are 10,8,6

upright row 3sets 25, 35, 45 reps are 10,8,6

Sundays off

Daily Diet 6 meals

1-Protein shake and egg whites 24oz water
2-Bannana and Peanut butter on whole wheat 24oz water
3-Protein bar low carb with canned tuna 24oz water
4-2 Chicken breasts with br rice and brocalli 1 can diet Ginger Ale
5-Protein bar low carb with canned tuna 24oz water
6-Chciken or Fish or Steak With steamed veggies 1 can diet 7up

Vieope · 03-31-2004, 07:13 PM

Not

titans1854 · 03-31-2004, 07:42 PM

i'm not an overtraining expert by any means but 20 sets for chest does seem a little excessive. I thought my 10 sets was a lot. and if i were you i'd stay away from the smith machine. you should use freeweights so you can build up your stabilizing muscles.

**P-funk** · 03-31-2004, 07:50 PM

It depends on a lot of things. People are so quick to cry overtraining. 20sets for chest is a lot but not that bad, I have done 30-35sets for chest before. The things that you have to look at are intensity 9amount of weight being moved in relation to your 1RM) and frequency of the workout. Also, if you are condioned to a certain level of stress then that is what needs to be done. A marathon runner didn't just start out running marathons did they? No, they built up there ability to handle that level of stress.

Now, if you are doing that much vilume there needs to be a cycle were you lay off and do less. This brings me to my next point. Overtraining is not bad. There are many athelete that train with periods of over reaching (about 4 weeks long) cycled with periods of deloading to alloow for recovery and to push through barriers when they go to the next cycle of over reaching.

Vieope · 03-31-2004, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by P-funk
I have done 30-35sets for chest before.

Oh, come on...

**P-funk** · 03-31-2004, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vieope
Oh, come on...

Read through some of my old journals!

Vieope · 03-31-2004, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by P-funk
Read through some of my old journals!

Oh, come on .. lol

Vieope · 03-31-2004, 08:17 PM

Ok, I will read it, I know that you gonna be mad if I don´t.

jaybol10 · 03-31-2004, 08:32 PM

PFUNK
Like I said I am anewbie...how do I access your journals?

So bassically I am a tad high but nothing to really be considering an overtraining.
However, I should toss in a few light week rotations. as followed
Mon- Chest
Tue- Legs
Wed- Back
Thursday- Shoulders
Friday- Arms

Would that be right If I trained hard then every 6 weeks toss in this routine for 2 weeks?? Only using the same intenstiy but giving my body a 7 day rest off each part??

**P-funk** · 04-01-2004, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaybol10
PFUNK
Like I said I am anewbie...how do I access your journals?

So bassically I am a tad high but nothing to really be considering an overtraining.
However, I should toss in a few light week rotations. as followed
Mon- Chest
Tue- Legs
Wed- Back
Thursday- Shoulders
Friday- Arms

Would that be right If I trained hard then every 6 weeks toss in this routine for 2 weeks?? Only using the same intenstiy but giving my body a 7 day rest off each part??

You can check my journal in the journal forums. The newest one is "Patrick is pulling it together" I can't remember the names of the past ones (do a search there under my name).

Dude, I said that you can get away witht htat volume if you took into consideration intensity and frequency. The intesity appears to be low enough but the frequency is insane!! Yoiu can get away with this volume maybe if you were doing the split that you just listed above!! I wouldn't try it with the split you are doing now!!! It is not as simple as throw in 2 light weeks. You are missing the point here. The change has to be more radical than that. YOu need to lower the volume or the frequency (I would drop all the frequency and some of the volume if it were me)

jaybol10 · 04-01-2004, 08:57 AM

Pfunk
I see what your saying the intensity and frequency goes hand and hand when trying to reach maxium muslce building without overtraining or undertraining.

right now I have gone through a few weeks of this routine and I don't feel bad, sore, injured, or fatigued. I feel pretty damn good. I go through my days feelin i worked out and i am tired from the workout but So far its not been that bad.
Based on your marathon runner sample and the samples of everyone else It appears that the routine is good to go and if I don't feel problems but see gains then not to worry. However if I stop growing then I should revised the routine.

I assume the first revision is the type of excersie and not the frequency or the intestiy of the exercise.

Am I closer?

**P-funk** · 04-01-2004, 10:38 AM

What I as talking about with my 30sets of chest was that the intensity wasn't high at all and I was resting 7 days until I trained chest again during this phase of my training. Where as you are traing chest monday and then again on wed and then again on friday. that is insane in my opinion and it has been fimne for the past few weeks because you are (a) a newbie and (b) probably haven't reached that level of overtrainig yet. You can go with this for a few more weeks maybe unitl it starts trashing you CNS. I would defenitly come up with something better and more logical that will allow you to train more eficiently. Also, the marathon runner is not running a marathon on mon, wed, fri.! That analogy was to just make a point that most people get to crazy about volume and I was also reffering to again, when I was giving my self more recovery between workouts. Whatever, do as you please, I know nothing.

jaybol10 · 04-01-2004, 08:14 PM

PFUNK
LOL no your making a lot of sense belive it or not. Thanks for the guidance. Actually, I was training to light to cut myself down.
I was doing this 100rep routine. which went as follows
Mon
Chest 5 exercises excessive light weight maybe 10lbs
100 rep each exercise
same for the rest of the week of body parts
tues- legs
wed - back
thurs- shoulders
friday- arms
Pretty much each part got 500 reps of 10lbs using a rest pause situo.

Trust me it burned alot and it was helpful because it allowed me to really concentrate on form. Which I found I needed because I needed to feel my lats and traps and chest working.
Now I am building on mass....Still a little skeptical because I don't want to put on the weight I lost

----went from 350 down to 230 in 5 months back in 2001 and kept myself at 230 since then----

I understand you need to feed your body I am just unsure if I am making use of everything I am eating. I am going to Punta Cana in July and don't really want that beach whale look.,

**P-funk** · 04-01-2004, 08:16 PM

Why not lower your volume and increase your intensty then? Light weight will do wonders for muscle endurance but you should be trying to focus on building muscle and maybe even some strength (even if it is not your primary goal).

jaybol10 · 04-01-2004, 08:23 PM

Well I did alot of research ebfore putting this stuff into practice. I realized for big muscle groups it takes around 48 hours to be almost 100%. I then read up on alot of diffrent routines. The rock has one in this months issue of Men's Health which i adapted. But arnold's book Lee's book and others all had the muscle groups working 3 times a week.

It made the most sense to me. To grow...make your muscle work constently!!

**P-funk** · 04-01-2004, 08:26 PM

I wouldn't go ewith any program written in Men's Health or Arnold's book.

The "make you muscles work constnatly theory" is absurd. You are tearing donw tissue when you workout and you need a good amount of time to allow that tissue to heal and rebuild otherwise you will keep breaking down tissue and without sufficient healing atrophy will occur. I think you need to do more reaserch! Grow outside of the gym, not in it!

jaybol10 · 04-01-2004, 08:29 PM

Yeah I been wrestleing with that Idea too....thats why I asked opinions if I was overtraining..... I dunno.... I need to find a good bench mark ... Maybe I will just do a good day of cardio and abs on wed and sat.... drop two of those days out of the orginal routine.

camarosuper6 · 04-01-2004, 08:53 PM

I agree to a point with what P-Funk said. I could care less about what Arnold or "The Rock" do for a workout program, because not only could they be using anabolics to aid them, their body is in no way like mine, or yours for that matter.

Now, about the body being fully recovered in 48 hours is a bit off as well. Research has shown that mRNA and ribosomes (etc) all fall off around the 36 hour mark, so TRAINING a bodypart every 48 hours may be beneficial ( check out Bryan Haycock's HST website). Now, the muscle may or may not be fully recovered, depending on your intensity in the previous workout, but muscle growth doesnt nessicarily need the muscle to be 100 percent recovered to grow. (Unless your purely strength training, which is something different). The key is figuring out intensity/volume ratio that allows best recovery and hypertrophy for your body.

I personally workout an HST type method, with 3 days a week upper body, 2 lower body, but I vary my intensity as well.

PreMier · 04-01-2004, 08:55 PM

I thought 72hrs was the minimal recovery time

camarosuper6 · 04-01-2004, 09:18 PM

read up on the hst website about recovery. Its very interesting.

**P-funk** · 04-02-2004, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by camarosuper6
I agree to a point with what P-Funk said. I could care less about what Arnold or "The Rock" do for a workout program, because not only could they be using anabolics to aid them, their body is in no way like mine, or yours for that matter.

Now, about the body being fully recovered in 48 hours is a bit off as well. Research has shown that mRNA and ribosomes (etc) all fall off around the 36 hour mark, so TRAINING a bodypart every 48 hours may be beneficial ( check out Bryan Haycock's HST website). Now, the muscle may or may not be fully recovered, depending on your intensity in the previous workout, but muscle growth doesnt nessicarily need the muscle to be 100 percent recovered to grow. (Unless your purely strength training, which is something different). The key is figuring out intensity/volume ratio that allows best recovery and hypertrophy for your body.

I personally workout an HST type method, with 3 days a week upper body, 2 lower body, but I vary my intensity as well.

I am not disagreeing that 48hrs you can have full recovery, right now since I am pre-contest I wouldn't do it but I train everything twice a week normally and 48 is all I need. Sometimes I do total body workouts also. I do very my intesities though so that I am not doing something like heavy legs and then 48hrs later heavy legs again.

jaybol10 · 04-02-2004, 02:17 PM

Ok here is an interseting article.... lets see who can make sense of why this is a great idea and how it works......or is it bullshit???

Discover your optimum training frequency and
unleash huge new growth
by: Pete Sisco (Website)

Want to know the #1 mistake made by people lifting weights? This single mistake inevitably causes long training plateaus and frustration that saps your motivation. Needlessly.

Okay, you probably already guessed the answer from the title of this article. The #1 mistake is training with the wrong frequency. Frequency refers to the number of days per week you perform weight lifting workouts. The most common training frequency is "three days per week," often performed on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. If this is your training frequency, I've got some great news for you. You can do far, far better!

Knowing the proper amount of time off between workouts is the single most misunderstood concept in strength training. The truth is, even if you do everything in the gym perfectly -- number of reps, number of sets, optimum weight, proper rest between sets and proper exercise form -- all of it can be worthless if you aren't training with the right frequency.

The dirty little secret of strength training

Fixed training schedules are insane. Every fixed training schedule, such as three days per week, will ultimately fail you. Here's why. As your strength increases, your workouts are more demanding and require more time from which to recover.

The average guy sitting in front of a computer has the capacity to increase his muscular strength by 300-400 percent. However, recovering from physical activity puts demands on many of the body's organs, such as the liver, kidneys and pancreas, to name three. These organs do not have the capacity to increase their metabolic functioning by the same 300-400 percent your muscles can.

When you think about it, this is something you already know from experience. If you do a light workout it hardly takes anything out of you. Your recovery is swift. But when you do a grueling workout involving heavy weights and a high intensity of overload, it can take days to feel fully recovered.

And since the indispensable key to strength training gains is progressive overload, you must find a way to increase the intensity of every workout and allow more time to recover from that workout.

Why "splitting" your routine won't avoid overtraining

To keep workouts less demanding, it is a common practice to "split" workouts, such as: Monday -- upper body, Wednesday -- lower body. While this is a sound tactic (one I recommend) it alone will not solve the problems of a fixed training schedule. The reason is stated in Sisco's Maxim: "Every day is kidney day."

The fact is, whether you work your chest, arms or legs today doesn't make the slightest difference to your kidneys. They still have to filter all the metabolic waste products out of your blood so you can fully recover. And remember this -- until you are fully recovered you will not grow new muscle. That's a physiological law. So a split routine helps reduce the amount of work your kidneys and other organs have to perform, but as you get stronger and hoist heavier iron, your kidneys will need more time to perform their job.

Amazing progress by "Doing Nothing"

Once you understand how to adjust your personal training frequency, your results will soar. Here's an example of what happened for a very tough-minded client of mine named Stanley.

After we discussed his training and lack of progress -- particularly in the barbell shrug exercise -- I told Stanley to take three weeks off of all training. He said there was no way he could stay out of the gym that long. Actually, this is a common problem with serious bodybuilders. Psychologically, when you want to make progress, it is very difficult to do what seems like "nothing." Not training feels like throwing in the towel or admitting defeat in some way. But the truth is your body needs time to recover. Time off is not wasted time; it's time that is critical to the growth process. It took a lot of talk to convince Stanley but, to his credit, he took three weeks off of all training.

Two months later he called me back with results that will shock you. His strength increased in every area of his body and his shrug power had skyrocketed. His first workout after the layoff was a personal best. Now he's training once every nine days. That's 18 days between workouts for the same bodyparts, because he uses an upper/lower body split. Before this correction in his training frequency, Stanley was training four times in just nine days. Look at the numbers that he sent me.

October 11
365 lbs. 20 reps 405 lbs. 20 reps (easy) 405 lbs. 20 reps

November 8
400 lbs. 20 reps (very tough) 455 lbs. 20 reps 505 lbs. 20 reps

December 17
505 lbs. 16 reps 600 lbs. 12 reps

Stanley did not include his times for lifting so I don't know his Power Factor or Power Index numbers but his total shrug weight went from 15,300 lbs per workout to 25,280…after doing nothing for three weeks. When was the last time you had a three-week period that was that productive?

Think about that. Three weeks of no training whatsoever, nothing but sitting on his ass for three weeks and his progress outpaced everybody he trained with! His training buddies couldn't believe their eyes. There's Stanley, who found it "very tough" to do 20 reps with 400 pounds now hoisting 505 pounds for 16 reps -- after doing 455 pounds for 20 reps! Next time back in the gym he's playing with 600 pounds. And as far as his bonehead buddies are concerned he's "missed" the previous 20 workouts! That's what I mean when I talk about "training smart."

How to completely and permanently avoid overtraining

The key to avoiding overtraining and finding your optimal training frequency is to closely monitor the progress you make on each exercise in your workout and identify any sign of slowed or arrested progress. Not progressing in one exercise out of five is a yellow flag. Not progressing in two or more is a red flag and means you need to add time off.

Three Quick Measures of Overtraining:

1. The weight used on each exercise did not increase. Strength training is all about progressive overload. That means you should return to the gym fully recovered and able to lift slightly heavier weights than you did last workout.
2. The number of reps or the static hold time on each exercise did not increase. If your weight on an exercise did not increase (see above) then your reps or the time of your static hold should have. (Note: recent research suggests that static holds beyond 12 seconds yield less benefit than increased weight with shorter hold times.)
3. It took you longer to do the same workout. Progress is driven by intensity of muscular output. Intensity is a function of time. So even if you do the identical workout today that you did three days ago but manage to do it in less time, your intensity has increased. But the reverse is also true, so watch out for taking extra time to do the same routine. Lower intensity can not build new muscle.

Try this on your next workout

Try this simple test on your next workout. On each exercise multiply the number of reps you do by the poundage. For example: bench press 175 pounds 12 times and you get 2,100. Next time you do the bench press see if that number has increased. If it hasn't, you have not fully recovered and need more days off between every workout. I work with advanced trainees who do one workout every six weeks. That's not a misprint. That means it takes them 12 weeks to get back to training each bodypart. And they make progress on every exercise on every workout and they lift enormously heavy weights. You can too.

How long have you been training with the same frequency? Look for the yellow flags that indicate your training frequency is not optimum. Adding an extra day or more off can turn a stale workout into a fantastic mass and strength booster.

Have a great workout!

camarosuper6 · 04-02-2004, 03:37 PM

Ive read a lot of Pete Sisco's stuff. For hypertrophy, I think his stuff pretty much suckz.

**P-funk** · 04-02-2004, 06:45 PM

I am not that big a fan of Pete Sisco either. This article is pretty lame in my opinion.

camarosuper6 · 04-02-2004, 08:38 PM

Seriously. Hes along the lines of Mentzer, but Mentzers training works very well for some people, and can be used in a cycle during the year.

Sisco advocates stuff that may work great for strength training, or possibly you could throw his stuff in every few workouts for some good gains, but using his stuff year round, doing peak contraction and nothing else? Thats awful. IMO anyways..

03-31-2004, 07:13 PM	#2
Vieope Monochromatic Bunny Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: drinking coffee.. Posts: 14,827 Photos: 10	Not
	FURtherness

03-31-2004, 07:42 PM	#3
titans1854 I'm a Berserker Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 602	i'm not an overtraining expert by any means but 20 sets for chest does seem a little excessive. I thought my 10 sets was a lot. and if i were you i'd stay away from the smith machine. you should use freeweights so you can build up your stabilizing muscles.
	Berserker: Band of ancient Norse warriors, who fought frenzied by intoxicating liquors, and naked, regardless of wounds.

03-31-2004, 07:50 PM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,432	It depends on a lot of things. People are so quick to cry overtraining. 20sets for chest is a lot but not that bad, I have done 30-35sets for chest before. The things that you have to look at are intensity 9amount of weight being moved in relation to your 1RM) and frequency of the workout. Also, if you are condioned to a certain level of stress then that is what needs to be done. A marathon runner didn't just start out running marathons did they? No, they built up there ability to handle that level of stress. Now, if you are doing that much vilume there needs to be a cycle were you lay off and do less. This brings me to my next point. Overtraining is not bad. There are many athelete that train with periods of over reaching (about 4 weeks long) cycled with periods of deloading to alloow for recovery and to push through barriers when they go to the next cycle of over reaching.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-31-2004, 08:17 PM	#8
Vieope Monochromatic Bunny Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: drinking coffee.. Posts: 14,827 Photos: 10	Ok, I will read it, I know that you gonna be mad if I don´t.
	FURtherness

04-01-2004, 10:38 AM	#12
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,432	What I as talking about with my 30sets of chest was that the intensity wasn't high at all and I was resting 7 days until I trained chest again during this phase of my training. Where as you are traing chest monday and then again on wed and then again on friday. that is insane in my opinion and it has been fimne for the past few weeks because you are (a) a newbie and (b) probably haven't reached that level of overtrainig yet. You can go with this for a few more weeks maybe unitl it starts trashing you CNS. I would defenitly come up with something better and more logical that will allow you to train more eficiently. Also, the marathon runner is not running a marathon on mon, wed, fri.! That analogy was to just make a point that most people get to crazy about volume and I was also reffering to again, when I was giving my self more recovery between workouts. Whatever, do as you please, I know nothing.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-31-2004, 07:01 PM	#1
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	OverTraining or Not??? Hi everyone! Newbie on the site but I been trying to do some research on overtraining. I saw everyones post and I have a question Alot of searchs said overtraining is bad. But all they say is for example: Chest no more than 5 sets. Well does that mean 5 sets entire chest routine? Or does it mean no more than... 5 sets incline press 5 sets flat bench 5 sets machine flies 5 sets Decline press total= 20 sets I have been on a diet routine and lost a total of 120lbs I now stand 6'4 230lbs but I am fat for a bodybuilder and have no muslce strenth Max bench press is usually 65lbs for dumbell presses and 140 for flat bench press. Bassically because I been doing a 100 rep light light weight routine to drop the fat. Now I want to bulk up with the left over fat I got then eventually trim that out. Soooo I divised a workout plan based on alot of research tell me what you guys think! Mon Wed Friday 20min medium cardio chest- Incline press Smith Machine - 4sets 10warm, 15, 12, 8 Flat bench Smith Machine - 4 sets 10warm, 15,12,8 Decline press - 4 sets 10warm,15,12,8 Peck Deck - 4 sets 10warm,15,12,8 Close grip Pushups - 4 sets 10warm,15,12,8 back Weight Assisted Pullups 3 set to failure for warm up Pulldowns 4 sets rest pause 15,20,12,8 Machine rows 4 sets rest pause 15,20,12,8 Str arm pushdowns 4 sets rest pause 15,20,12,8 Hyperextensions 4 sets of 20 using bodyweight only Smith Machine dead Lift 3 sets 15,12,8 calves Calve presses 4 sets of 10 using 180lbs on leg press bis Standing Curls 3 sets using 40,50,70lbs reps are 10 8 6 Preacher curls 2 sets 30 lbs to failure Incline seated Spirulted dumbell curls 2 sets of 20lbs to failure Then my Tues Thur Sat workout is 20min medium cardio Quads and Hams Leg press 2 sets 180lbs 10x and then 270lbs 10x Leg extensions 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x lying Hamstring curl 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x Hamstring press 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x Abductor machine 3 sets 25lb 12x 35lb 10x 45lb 8x Heavy Leg Press 2 sets 300lb 8x 400lb 6x Triceps Lying trcipe exten 3 sets 25lb 10x 30lb 8x 35lb 6x tricep pushdowns 3 sets 35lb 10x 40lb 8x 45lb 6x Machine dips 2 sets heavy failure Shoulders Presses 4 sets 10lb, 25lb, 35lb, 45lb reps are 15,12,10,8 lat raises 4sets 10lb, 25lb,20lb 25lb reps = 15,8,12,6 front raises 4 sets 10lb, 25lb,20lb 25lb reps = 15,8,12,6 shrugs 3 sets 50lb 70lb 90lb reps are 10,8,6 upright row 3sets 25, 35, 45 reps are 10,8,6 Sundays off Daily Diet 6 meals 1-Protein shake and egg whites 24oz water 2-Bannana and Peanut butter on whole wheat 24oz water 3-Protein bar low carb with canned tuna 24oz water 4-2 Chicken breasts with br rice and brocalli 1 can diet Ginger Ale 5-Protein bar low carb with canned tuna 24oz water 6-Chciken or Fish or Steak With steamed veggies 1 can diet 7up

03-31-2004, 08:32 PM	#9
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	PFUNK Like I said I am anewbie...how do I access your journals? So bassically I am a tad high but nothing to really be considering an overtraining. However, I should toss in a few light week rotations. as followed Mon- Chest Tue- Legs Wed- Back Thursday- Shoulders Friday- Arms Would that be right If I trained hard then every 6 weeks toss in this routine for 2 weeks?? Only using the same intenstiy but giving my body a 7 day rest off each part??

04-01-2004, 08:57 AM	#11
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	Pfunk I see what your saying the intensity and frequency goes hand and hand when trying to reach maxium muslce building without overtraining or undertraining. right now I have gone through a few weeks of this routine and I don't feel bad, sore, injured, or fatigued. I feel pretty damn good. I go through my days feelin i worked out and i am tired from the workout but So far its not been that bad. Based on your marathon runner sample and the samples of everyone else It appears that the routine is good to go and if I don't feel problems but see gains then not to worry. However if I stop growing then I should revised the routine. I assume the first revision is the type of excersie and not the frequency or the intestiy of the exercise. Am I closer?

04-01-2004, 08:14 PM	#13
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	PFUNK LOL no your making a lot of sense belive it or not. Thanks for the guidance. Actually, I was training to light to cut myself down. I was doing this 100rep routine. which went as follows Mon Chest 5 exercises excessive light weight maybe 10lbs 100 rep each exercise same for the rest of the week of body parts tues- legs wed - back thurs- shoulders friday- arms Pretty much each part got 500 reps of 10lbs using a rest pause situo. Trust me it burned alot and it was helpful because it allowed me to really concentrate on form. Which I found I needed because I needed to feel my lats and traps and chest working. Now I am building on mass....Still a little skeptical because I don't want to put on the weight I lost ----went from 350 down to 230 in 5 months back in 2001 and kept myself at 230 since then---- I understand you need to feed your body I am just unsure if I am making use of everything I am eating. I am going to Punta Cana in July and don't really want that beach whale look.,

04-01-2004, 08:16 PM	#14
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,432	Why not lower your volume and increase your intensty then? Light weight will do wonders for muscle endurance but you should be trying to focus on building muscle and maybe even some strength (even if it is not your primary goal).
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-01-2004, 08:23 PM	#15
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	Well I did alot of research ebfore putting this stuff into practice. I realized for big muscle groups it takes around 48 hours to be almost 100%. I then read up on alot of diffrent routines. The rock has one in this months issue of Men's Health which i adapted. But arnold's book Lee's book and others all had the muscle groups working 3 times a week. It made the most sense to me. To grow...make your muscle work constently!!

04-01-2004, 08:26 PM	#16
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,432	I wouldn't go ewith any program written in Men's Health or Arnold's book. The "make you muscles work constnatly theory" is absurd. You are tearing donw tissue when you workout and you need a good amount of time to allow that tissue to heal and rebuild otherwise you will keep breaking down tissue and without sufficient healing atrophy will occur. I think you need to do more reaserch! Grow outside of the gym, not in it!
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-01-2004, 08:29 PM	#17
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	Yeah I been wrestleing with that Idea too....thats why I asked opinions if I was overtraining..... I dunno.... I need to find a good bench mark ... Maybe I will just do a good day of cardio and abs on wed and sat.... drop two of those days out of the orginal routine.

04-01-2004, 08:53 PM	#18
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,344	I agree to a point with what P-Funk said. I could care less about what Arnold or "The Rock" do for a workout program, because not only could they be using anabolics to aid them, their body is in no way like mine, or yours for that matter. Now, about the body being fully recovered in 48 hours is a bit off as well. Research has shown that mRNA and ribosomes (etc) all fall off around the 36 hour mark, so TRAINING a bodypart every 48 hours may be beneficial ( check out Bryan Haycock's HST website). Now, the muscle may or may not be fully recovered, depending on your intensity in the previous workout, but muscle growth doesnt nessicarily need the muscle to be 100 percent recovered to grow. (Unless your purely strength training, which is something different). The key is figuring out intensity/volume ratio that allows best recovery and hypertrophy for your body. I personally workout an HST type method, with 3 days a week upper body, 2 lower body, but I vary my intensity as well.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

04-01-2004, 08:55 PM	#19
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,088 Photos: 2	I thought 72hrs was the minimal recovery time
	P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

04-01-2004, 09:18 PM	#20
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,344	read up on the hst website about recovery. Its very interesting.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

04-02-2004, 02:17 PM	#22
jaybol10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 45	Ok here is an interseting article.... lets see who can make sense of why this is a great idea and how it works......or is it bullshit??? Discover your optimum training frequency and unleash huge new growth by: Pete Sisco (Website) Want to know the #1 mistake made by people lifting weights? This single mistake inevitably causes long training plateaus and frustration that saps your motivation. Needlessly. Okay, you probably already guessed the answer from the title of this article. The #1 mistake is training with the wrong frequency. Frequency refers to the number of days per week you perform weight lifting workouts. The most common training frequency is "three days per week," often performed on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. If this is your training frequency, I've got some great news for you. You can do far, far better! Knowing the proper amount of time off between workouts is the single most misunderstood concept in strength training. The truth is, even if you do everything in the gym perfectly -- number of reps, number of sets, optimum weight, proper rest between sets and proper exercise form -- all of it can be worthless if you aren't training with the right frequency. The dirty little secret of strength training Fixed training schedules are insane. Every fixed training schedule, such as three days per week, will ultimately fail you. Here's why. As your strength increases, your workouts are more demanding and require more time from which to recover. The average guy sitting in front of a computer has the capacity to increase his muscular strength by 300-400 percent. However, recovering from physical activity puts demands on many of the body's organs, such as the liver, kidneys and pancreas, to name three. These organs do not have the capacity to increase their metabolic functioning by the same 300-400 percent your muscles can. When you think about it, this is something you already know from experience. If you do a light workout it hardly takes anything out of you. Your recovery is swift. But when you do a grueling workout involving heavy weights and a high intensity of overload, it can take days to feel fully recovered. And since the indispensable key to strength training gains is progressive overload, you must find a way to increase the intensity of every workout and allow more time to recover from that workout. Why "splitting" your routine won't avoid overtraining To keep workouts less demanding, it is a common practice to "split" workouts, such as: Monday -- upper body, Wednesday -- lower body. While this is a sound tactic (one I recommend) it alone will not solve the problems of a fixed training schedule. The reason is stated in Sisco's Maxim: "Every day is kidney day." The fact is, whether you work your chest, arms or legs today doesn't make the slightest difference to your kidneys. They still have to filter all the metabolic waste products out of your blood so you can fully recover. And remember this -- until you are fully recovered you will not grow new muscle. That's a physiological law. So a split routine helps reduce the amount of work your kidneys and other organs have to perform, but as you get stronger and hoist heavier iron, your kidneys will need more time to perform their job. Amazing progress by "Doing Nothing" Once you understand how to adjust your personal training frequency, your results will soar. Here's an example of what happened for a very tough-minded client of mine named Stanley. After we discussed his training and lack of progress -- particularly in the barbell shrug exercise -- I told Stanley to take three weeks off of all training. He said there was no way he could stay out of the gym that long. Actually, this is a common problem with serious bodybuilders. Psychologically, when you want to make progress, it is very difficult to do what seems like "nothing." Not training feels like throwing in the towel or admitting defeat in some way. But the truth is your body needs time to recover. Time off is not wasted time; it's time that is critical to the growth process. It took a lot of talk to convince Stanley but, to his credit, he took three weeks off of all training. Two months later he called me back with results that will shock you. His strength increased in every area of his body and his shrug power had skyrocketed. His first workout after the layoff was a personal best. Now he's training once every nine days. That's 18 days between workouts for the same bodyparts, because he uses an upper/lower body split. Before this correction in his training frequency, Stanley was training four times in just nine days. Look at the numbers that he sent me. October 11 365 lbs. 20 reps 405 lbs. 20 reps (easy) 405 lbs. 20 reps November 8 400 lbs. 20 reps (very tough) 455 lbs. 20 reps 505 lbs. 20 reps December 17 505 lbs. 16 reps 600 lbs. 12 reps Stanley did not include his times for lifting so I don't know his Power Factor or Power Index numbers but his total shrug weight went from 15,300 lbs per workout to 25,280…after doing nothing for three weeks. When was the last time you had a three-week period that was that productive? Think about that. Three weeks of no training whatsoever, nothing but sitting on his ass for three weeks and his progress outpaced everybody he trained with! His training buddies couldn't believe their eyes. There's Stanley, who found it "very tough" to do 20 reps with 400 pounds now hoisting 505 pounds for 16 reps -- after doing 455 pounds for 20 reps! Next time back in the gym he's playing with 600 pounds. And as far as his bonehead buddies are concerned he's "missed" the previous 20 workouts! That's what I mean when I talk about "training smart." How to completely and permanently avoid overtraining The key to avoiding overtraining and finding your optimal training frequency is to closely monitor the progress you make on each exercise in your workout and identify any sign of slowed or arrested progress. Not progressing in one exercise out of five is a yellow flag. Not progressing in two or more is a red flag and means you need to add time off. Three Quick Measures of Overtraining: 1. The weight used on each exercise did not increase. Strength training is all about progressive overload. That means you should return to the gym fully recovered and able to lift slightly heavier weights than you did last workout. 2. The number of reps or the static hold time on each exercise did not increase. If your weight on an exercise did not increase (see above) then your reps or the time of your static hold should have. (Note: recent research suggests that static holds beyond 12 seconds yield less benefit than increased weight with shorter hold times.) 3. It took you longer to do the same workout. Progress is driven by intensity of muscular output. Intensity is a function of time. So even if you do the identical workout today that you did three days ago but manage to do it in less time, your intensity has increased. But the reverse is also true, so watch out for taking extra time to do the same routine. Lower intensity can not build new muscle. Try this on your next workout Try this simple test on your next workout. On each exercise multiply the number of reps you do by the poundage. For example: bench press 175 pounds 12 times and you get 2,100. Next time you do the bench press see if that number has increased. If it hasn't, you have not fully recovered and need more days off between every workout. I work with advanced trainees who do one workout every six weeks. That's not a misprint. That means it takes them 12 weeks to get back to training each bodypart. And they make progress on every exercise on every workout and they lift enormously heavy weights. You can too. How long have you been training with the same frequency? Look for the yellow flags that indicate your training frequency is not optimum. Adding an extra day or more off can turn a stale workout into a fantastic mass and strength booster. Have a great workout!

04-02-2004, 03:37 PM	#23
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,344	Ive read a lot of Pete Sisco's stuff. For hypertrophy, I think his stuff pretty much suckz.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

04-02-2004, 06:45 PM	#24
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,432	I am not that big a fan of Pete Sisco either. This article is pretty lame in my opinion.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-02-2004, 08:38 PM	#25
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,344	Seriously. Hes along the lines of Mentzer, but Mentzers training works very well for some people, and can be used in a cycle during the year. Sisco advocates stuff that may work great for strength training, or possibly you could throw his stuff in every few workouts for some good gains, but using his stuff year round, doing peak contraction and nothing else? Thats awful. IMO anyways..
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?