Thread: Just can't get my muscles any bigger.

Originally posted by SportinStyle
I train and train. 3-4 times a week for about a hour and a half each time.

Are you doing a full body workout? I keep my workouts under an hour,most peeps here do to.

I do 3-4 sets of 2 machines/dumbell workouts for each muscel group. When doing them I do them EXPLOSIVELY. I get the soreness but no mass. Also I do 6-8 reps when doing the workouts (usually until failure).

Now, I used to do toning (15-20 reps) of a low weight. I actually started to gain and get very toned (but not buff if you understand).

Need to do your workouts using compound movements: like bench press,squats deads,military press ect.

I have maintained the same bulk but gained nothing. The only thing I could think of is I am not taking in enough protein (I used to do shakes and bars but I could never find a good tasting one, help me out with some if possible) or any creatine.

you need to get a least 1 gram of protein per lbs of body weight,some peeps go 1.5 to 2 grams.Also you probable need to up your calorie intake.

Do you know any good tasting protein formulas (for shakes) and bars?

SportinStyle, do you ever take time off from training? Do you ever change your routine?

Typically, not making gains is related more to your diet than training, why don't you post your diet in detail meal by meal in the diet/nutrition fourm.

My diet completly sucks. I eat fast food on the go and never cook. I do not mean hamburgers and all the greasy stuff. I mean lunchmeat's from subway/arbies and the like (some greasy stuff). I just cannot change this due to time and lifestyle.

Let me tell you though, I don't eat any sweets, anything high in fat, I try to eat my fair share of carbs and nutritional calories. I take multi-vit's, am going to start on creatine soon, and gonna up my protein intake 200%.

I don't want to be a "bodybuilder" or cut with a 6-pack. Well of course I do, but I cannot give up my valued time to cook/eat perfect, nor do I want to. I just want a physique with a little definition (but more or less just the biceps/tris/calves/and chest) but the muscle is clearly seen.

I have a super-high metabolism and I am willing to cut down my fast foods a little bit.

Any ideas?

2-3 Sets per muscle group is not suffient. Look around on the net for a good 3-4 day split. Track your diet, and write up a supplementation schedule.

Originally posted by SportinStyle
My diet completly sucks. I eat fast food on the go and never cook.

well, there you go, how to you expect to make gains if you do not feed your body correctly?

nutrition is about 70% of the equation.

Originally posted by SportinStyle
My diet completly sucks. I eat fast food on the go and never cook. I just cannot change this due to time and lifestyle.

cannot means I will not...find a new sport, because with a shitty diet your gains will be minimal at best

lol. underwear models dont eat at arbys.

lol, I don't eat bad. Not at all. I stay away from sugar completly. I eat minimal fat. I eat carbs/calories and thats pretty much it.

I don't even want to bodybuild as a sport. I just want sufficient gains in the arms and chest (I don't really care if there is a small layer of fat over it.

So my question once again. If I upped my suppliments would I gain a lot more?

You obviously have no clue about what you're doing, what you must do to get the gains you'd like, or anything about supplemention or dieting. My suggestion is you read some articles about training, dieting, and supplements. You're gonna have to be serious about building your body or you are not going to get the gains you want man. You need to be dedicated, and have intensity.

Links :

Information:
www.bodybuilding.com
www.ironmagazine.com
www.animalpak.com

Supplements:
www.bulknutrition.com
www.muscleshoppe.com

Originally posted by SportinStyle
If I upped my suppliments would I gain a lot more?

but what are you supplimenting? when i used to eat at subway, i would supplement my steak & cheese sandwich with chips and and extra large coke.

I don't drink ANY soda or eat any french fries/chips/etc. Usually just a Tuna Hoagy.

There is good scientific research showing taking time off (anywhere from 7-14 days is usually the most common) can "reset" the muscle growth process.

www.hypertrophy-specific.com

Here is an article on this, called Strategic Deconditioning

While utilizing Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST) techniques, our goal is to present the muscle with a growth promoting stimulus at the moment the muscle is physically susceptible to microtrauma. When is this exactly? Well, it is, or was, whenever you first began weight training. It may also have been after you took a long vacation or simply took a break from training for one reason or another. The point is, it is whenever the muscle has never been conditioned or when it has been allowed to decondition itself during an extended lay off. The optimum time for training is when the deconditioned muscle has retained the additional myonuclei from previous training, but has lost enough of the protective connective tissue to allow growth promoting microtrauma. HST takes into account this need to apply the growth stimulus when the muscle is most receptive. We call this Strategic Deconditioning.

Training after Strategic Deconditioning results in much more rapid gains in size and strength. This phenomena lead to the idea of "muscle memory". When done properly not only do you quickly regain previously attained size and strength but you will put on new muscle and reach new levels of strength beyond your previous plateau.

So what is "Strategic Deconditioning"?

What does strategic Deconditioning mean and how do we apply it to continue growing? Strategic deconditioning is simply a period of time free from training which is long enough to allow a reversal of some of the acute adaptations in muscle tissue, referring specifically to the repeated bout effect. This usually requires 9 - 12 days straight with no training. The term strategic is used because this 9 - 12 day period is not chosen at random or whenever you begin to feel "burned out" or even simply lose interest. It is done every 6-8 weeks depending on whether you finish your cycle with 5 rep work or with eccentric work respectively.

Don't confuse deconditioning with recuperation. Recuperation denotes a restoration or re-building of the tissue. This is what your average personal trainer commonly advocates. He or she will tell you, "Give the muscle plenty of time to rest before you train it again." This pattern of training will not only produce slower gains but you will inevitably plateau more quickly, albeit a fully recuperated plateau. Your muscles will be fully recuperated within the first 7 days of the deconditioning period. At 7 days you will also still retain most of the repeated bout effects. Additional down time is required to allow the muscle to lower it's defenses. 9-12 days is just long enough to allow deconditioning, but to prevent undue muscle atrophy.

Equally important as the deconditioning period is what you do during the 6-8 weeks of training. Standard practice is to split up your body into muscle groups and train each one separately or in groups on different days. This usually means training a given muscle once or maybe twice per week. If you were to train this way during the 6-8 weeks before your Strategic Deconditioning period you would be sorely disappointed in the result. This would only provide three workouts every 5 weeks, certainly insufficient to produce a growth promoting environment. Instead of traditional training practices you must use HST techniques to create a consistent environment that the muscle must adapt to by growing larger and stronger.

During the 6-8 weeks of training you will do full body workouts utilizing only 1-2 compound exercises per muscle group as outlined in HST. For example, for legs you will do either squats (or leg press) and leg curls. For chest you will do incline bench and weighted dips. For back do wide grip bent over rows and close grip weighted chins or pull downs. Pick one or two shoulder exercises that hit your weakest area and one exercise for biceps and one for triceps. You may alternate exercises for each muscle group from workout to workout. By alternating exercises from workout to workout you can utilize more exercises over the course of the week. This isn't necessary f r growth, but many people chose to do this with great success.

Each and every workout you should increase the weight you use for each exercise. This means 5-10 pound increments for upper body and 10-20 pound increments for legs. This obviously requires that during the first week you are not using your previous cycle's max loads. If the Strategic Deconditioning is done properly, you won't need to. To choose a starting weight for your exercises, go backwards from the weights you finished with at the end of the previous cycle. Allow for 6 increases in weight with the last increase being slightly above the previous cycles finishing weight. Once again, more details can be had by reading the original publication of HST.

It is this practice of frequent loading followed by Strategic Deconditioning that allows a person to reuse submaximal poundages to elicit new muscle growth.

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Here are some selected references that might be of interest:

Clarke MS, Feeback DL Mechanical load induces sarcoplasmic wounding and FGF release in differentiated human skeletal muscle cultures. FASEB J. 10(4):502-509 1996

Hakkinen K, Komi PV. EMG changes during strength training and detraining. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 15(6):455-460. 1983

Maughan RJ (1984) Relationship between muscle strength and muscle Cross-sectional area. Implications for training. Sports Med. 1(4):263-269

McDonagh MJ, Davies CT. (1984) Adaptive response of mammalian skeletal muscle to exercise with high loads. Eur J Appl Physiol ;52(2):139-155

MacDougall JD, Ward GR, Sale DG, Sutton JR. (1977) Biochemical adaptation of human skeletal muscle to heavy resistance training and immobilization. J Appl Physiol. 43(4): 700-703.

Nosaka K, Clarkson P.M.,(1995) Muscle damage following repeated bouts of high force eccentric exercise. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc., 27(9) pp. 1263-1269

Smith LL., Fuylmer MG., Holbert D., McCammon MR., Houmard JA., Frazer DD., Nsien E., Isreal RG. The impact of repeated bout of eccentric exercise on muscular strength, muscle soreness and creatine kinase. Br J Sp Med 1994; 28(4)

T.C. Chen, Taipei Physical Education College, and S.S. Hsieh, FACSM,. The effects of a seven-day repeated eccentric training on recovery from muscle damage. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp) pp. S71, 1999

Bates GP. The relationship between duration of stimulus per day and the extent of hypertrophy of slow-tonic skeletal muscle in the fowl, Gallus gallus. Comp Biochem Physiol Comp Physiol 1993 Dec;106(4):755-758

McLester JR., Bishop P., & Guilliams M. Comparison of 1 and 3 day per week of equal volume resistance training in experienced subjects. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp) pp.S117 1999

Curto MA., Fisher MM. The effect of single vs. Multiple sets of resistance exercise on strength in trained males. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp) pp.S114, 1999

Ohmori H., Shimegi S., Fujimoto K., Kano Y., Inaki M., Myamaru M., and Katsuta S. The effect of strength training is potentially memorized and reinforced by retraining. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp), pp S327, 1999

Phelan JN, Gonyea WJ. Effect of radiation on satellite cell activity and protein expression in overloaded mammalian skeletal muscle. Anat. Rec. 247:179-188, 1997

Rosenblatt JD, Parry DJ., Gamma irradiation prevents compensatory hypertrophy of overloaded extensor digitorum longus muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 73:2538-2543, 1992

Rosenblatt JD, Yong D, Parry DJ., Satellite cell activity is required for hypertrophy of overloaded adult rat muscle. Muscle Nerve 17:608-613, 1994

If you had a super high metabolism you would be ripped year round. If you dont have 10 minutes to cook your own beef or 5 minutes to prep some rice and chicken on the stove to cook while you do your laundry then you are always going to limit your gains.

Seeing that humans dont gain body mass out of thin air, it would stand to reason that diet is #1.

Good Point Mudge.

I am not super ripped because I don't have enough muscle. I just don't fuel my muscles enough I guess because I only have 8-10% bodyfat.

Hmm, 8% is pretty good, 10% is certainly nice too but I'd say from those I've seen at 8% even non-lifters have pretty nice muscle display.

How did you have your bodyfat tested? Just curious.

Well 3 times... once by a manual scale (gripper), once by a scale that calculates, and one by a pulse reader/calculator.

with the calipers at arbys

Stop hatin' guys hehehe

Over what time period are we talking about not seeing the results?

About protein: I do this and it is great: unflavored whey + rich, chocolatey ovaltine + 1% milk. It turns out a little thick but very tasty (use lots of ovaltine). Provides some good vitamins via ovaltine and around 50g of protein including the milk.

Outside of that, I'd like to see you hit the gym 5 days / week and reduce the time you are there to an hour rather than an hour and a half.

Thanks a lot Nas. Uhh its been like 8 months of working out and barely any results.

I did a protein diet for a bit but I wasn't gaining anything in the 2 months I did it, and the training was extremely hard.

I just ordered protein and creatine so I am gonna work as hard as possible and also take some flax oil for 3 weeks and see if I see any big difference. I will also improve my diet ( a lot but not FULLY PERFECT).

Originally posted by Prince
well, there you go, how to you expect to make gains if you do not feed your body correctly?

nutrition is about 70% of the equation.

I just wanted to emphasize this again. You WONT make proper gains without the right diet!

As for supplements, they are made to SUPPLEMENT your already SOUND diet. If you just use them with a shitty diet, you are wasting a lot of $$.

I have a question... once muscle is made, can I just workout but cut my diet back a little bit and still maintain it (even though I may gain a little fat)??

Sure you can cutback(diet) once its(muscle) made. Depending on how many cals you cut will determine how much muscle mass you retain. Why would you gain fat??? If you are in a caloric deficit you should loose fat.

Oh, and please dont use the word "toned"

Originally posted by SportinStyle
I have a question... once muscle is made, can I just workout but cut my diet back a little bit and still maintain it (even though I may gain a little fat)??

well, you have to remember that your body is a very efficient and intelligent machine, if it does not feel that it needs something it gets rid of it.

when we train with heavy weights our body reacts by building the muscle bigger and stronger, it also needs adequate protein to support the new muscle.

if you discontinue the weight training your body will not see any reason to keep that extra muscle around, just the same if you do not feed your body adequate protein it will use muscle tissue.

also remember that if you want to get bigger, you cant do it without a lot of everything - carbs, protein, and fats. yes, fats. fats contain essential fatty acids (EFAs) that you really need to help ya out. the only way to gain size is to take in more calories than you burn in a day. a LOT more. like the guys above said, take in at least 1 gram of protein per pound body mass. that's a lot to take in, say if you weigh 180 pounds, thats the equivalent of 3 pounds of chicken a day. protein shakes, milk, eggs, turkey, chicken, and TUNA TUNA TUNA are excellent sources of protein.

when i get done lifting i take my shake, with milk, giving me 56 grams of protein right there, which is what the FDA says is 112% of my daily allowance. do not EVER listen to the FDA, theyll get you fat by telling you to suck in 11 servings of carbs a day.

remember, you also want a lot of carbs, but make them unprocessed carbs, like whole-grain bread, brown rice, etc, sugar and other poor carbs wont do.

id suggest you head over to the nutrition forum for much more in-depth advice from people who know a hell of a lot more than i do.

oh btw when training, even going light, try to do at least 3 excercises for each muscle, 3 sets each excercise. when youre done you should feel the blood about to burst out of your muscles. i love getting done w/ my triceps routine because it feels like my triceps are sticking out about 3 feet behind my body

Originally posted by SportinStyle
Well 3 times... once by a manual scale (gripper), once by a scale that calculates, and one by a pulse reader/calculator.

Gripper as in something you gripped? That would be bioelectrical impedance, unfortunately not reliable. Caliper testing by someone experienced would be the way to go, or take a little practice at home, you should get relatively close (you can just look at the mm to see if you are going up or down).

8% is what I would call pretty damn lean, you should see muscle everywhere. I see arm and ab muscles (not all my abs) much higher than 8%.

I would shoot for 1g protein per pound, I dont see a reason to get crazy and go much higher unless your macronutrient breakdown calls for it (40/30/30 or whatever you decide on).