Thread: Incline for upper chest?

1-Read When Muscle Meets Magnet and for once in your life, observe what happens in the REAL WORLD, not on paper or in a lab.

2-The hormonal cascade that occurs after a workout is necessary for facilitating the growth process. GH, IGF-1, Testosterone, prostaglandins, estrogen, cortisol...all of these play a role and will rise and fall as the trauma, recovery, and overcompensation process occurs. Without any muscle breakdown there will be no reason for growth through both hypertrophy and even hyperplasia.

3-Right, and when you cause tighter contractions in portions of a complex muscle you will be effecting growth in that area. However, the muscle must be complex as the chest, back, tris, delts, and back are.

4-Again, I DO NOT need to site my own work. In order for me to do so I would have to show you the progress of every one of my clients. Although there are several trainers that have influenced me with their brilliant thoughts...Poliquin, King, Staley, Chek...my overall theory is my own. When I write my book or articles people can site me.

5-Incredibly poetic quote my friend. However, it was not an insult, but a fact. You ARE nothing to me. You ARE meaningless to me. I DO NOT have to prove ANYTHING to you...only to my clients, myself, and those that seek out my guidence.

You can continue this debate on your own. I don't have any more to say. I know inclines work the upper chest just as I know the moon will shine at night. Mentzer was damn sure of his methods although science showed many times that multiple sets cause more growth than single sets. He lived and died by his beliefs and so will I. I suggest that you spend less time posting in this thread and more time working on your bench press...it is terribly disproportionate to your deadlift and squat. If you need assistance with this, let me know.

1-Read When Muscle Meets Magnet and for once in your life, observe what happens in the REAL WORLD, not on paper or in a lab.

Read Supertraining. Observe what happens in the real world. Observe what happens when REAL knowledge is applied.

2-The hormonal cascade that occurs after a workout is necessary for facilitating the growth process. GH, IGF-1, Testosterone, prostaglandins, estrogen, cortisol...all of these play a role and will rise and fall as the trauma, recovery, and overcompensation process occurs. Without any muscle breakdown there will be no reason for growth through both hypertrophy and even hyperplasia.

Again you're being very vague. There is not an "overcompensation period" as you call it. And hyperplasia doesn't exist in humans. Again, real science has proven this.

3-Right, and when you cause tighter contractions in portions of a complex muscle you will be effecting growth in that area.

For the 4th time, no.

However, the muscle must be complex as the chest, back, tris, delts, and back are.

Why?

4-Again, I DO NOT need to site my own work. In order for me to do so I would have to show you the progress of every one of my clients. Although there are several trainers that have influenced me with their brilliant thoughts...Poliquin, King, Staley, Chek...my overall theory is my own. When I write my book or articles people can site me.

It's cite. And Mel Siff proved Poliquin wrong many times in many public forums with regards to what Poliquin stated or passed on as fact. I'll allow you to google for these debates yourself.

Mentzer was damn sure of his methods although science showed many times that multiple sets cause more growth than single sets.

No, no it didn't.

Originally posted by Saturday Fever
Read Supertraining. Observe what happens in the real world. Observe what happens when REAL knowledge is applied.



Again you're being very vague. There is not an "overcompensation period" as you call it. And hyperplasia doesn't exist in humans. Again, real science has proven this.



For the 4th time, no.



Why?



It's cite. And Mel Siff proved Poliquin wrong many times in many public forums with regards to what Poliquin stated or passed on as fact. I'll allow you to google for these debates yourself.



No, no it didn't.

Yes, Supertraining is THE Bible

Hyperplasia is believed to occur in humans by many experts, but of course not any that you would listen to...

So how do human studies come up with evidence for hyperplasia? Well, it's arrived at in an indirect fashion. For instance, one study showed that elite bodybuilders and powerlifters had arm circumferences 27% greater than normal sedentary controls yet the size (i.e., cross-sectional area) of athlete's muscle fibers (in the triceps brachii muscle) were not different than the control group (47). Nygaard and Neilsen (35) did a cross-sectional study in which they found that swimmers had smaller Type I and IIa fibers in the deltoid muscle when compared to controls despite the fact that the overall size of the deltoid muscle was greater. Larsson and Tesch (29) found that bodybuilders possessed thigh circumference measurements 19% greater than controls yet the average size of their muscle fibers were not different from the controls. Furthermore, Alway et al. (3) compared the biceps brachii muscle in elite male and female bodybuilders. These investigators showed that the cross-sectional area of the biceps muscle was correlated to both fiber area and number.....

No, there is no "overcompensation" period. Muscle just magically appears on the body through no complex reactions at all. What a dumb statement Feverish. First there is breakdown, then recovery, then overcompensation (use another term if you like, but this is howit goes).

Sorry, believe what you like, but portions of a muscle can be worked and you truly are being ignorant if you think that ONE exercise per bodypart can bring about the full potential of a muscle. Do not even try to tell me or anyone that dips, kickbacks, and overhead tricep exercises do not affect the triceps muscle in different ways and work one head more significantly than another.

The more complex the muscle, the more potential to work different sections of it through various angles, grips and lines of pull. You cannot get complete back development from doing bent rows only. If you think you can, you are fooling only yourself.

Yes, I know how all of you at WBB worship Siff, but sorry, the man doesn't hold a candle to Poliquin. Siff only proved Poliquin wrong in the minds of Siff fans.

Finally, there have been multiple studies that have shown multiple sets to be more effective than single sets.

See, like I've said before there are tons of studies out there and every one that proves one thing is disproved by another. It all depends on who you choose to believe and how you choose to interpret the data.

But what is TRULY important is applying what you read to what you do in the gym in order to see what REALLY works and what doesn't. I have found out what works for me and those I train. I hope you have found out what works for you Mr Fever.

Originally posted by gopro
Not sure who this is directed at, but just to give my quick thoughts about what you said...

A) The bicep is to simple a muscle anatomically and in function to work different sections to any great degree. Yes, the brachialis can be isolated somewhat and growth can be affected more specifically in this muscle. In fact, it is by working the brachialis that we can TRULY create more peak.

B) Never said anything about lengthening a muscle, which I agree is impossible.

C) Disagree completely.

Please, for all of you that think that inclines are not necessary, do not ever do an incline movement again for according to your reasoning, it would be a complete waste of your time.

GP, this was not directed at you, but at the entire thread. I believe it was Prince who stated that you cannot work the lower bi and used that as a metaphor for working the upper/lower pecs. This is obviously not a good comparison since the "lower bi" runs perpendicular to the direction of the muscle fibers while the upper chest runs parallel.

Also, someone brought up lengthening a muscle, I don't remember whom, but I know it was not you.

Finally, I have no idea as to whether or not you can grow an isolated part of the chest. Certainly there is no definite answer in either direction. By saying there is no way it can happen, a person is basing a judgement on something that has barely been researched. Saying it definitely can happen without any support is at best a guess. I would say alot of people mistaken better development of their shoulders for upper chest development. not saying you are part of this group, but many do. Like I said, I have no idea, but I still use multiple angles just to get at the muscle completely.

Originally posted by gopro
Yes, Supertraining is THE Bible

Hyperplasia is believed to occur in humans by many experts, but of course not any that you would listen to...

So how do human studies come up with evidence for hyperplasia? Well, it's arrived at in an indirect fashion. For instance, one study showed that elite bodybuilders and powerlifters had arm circumferences 27% greater than normal sedentary controls yet the size (i.e., cross-sectional area) of athlete's muscle fibers (in the triceps brachii muscle) were not different than the control group (47). Nygaard and Neilsen (35) did a cross-sectional study in which they found that swimmers had smaller Type I and IIa fibers in the deltoid muscle when compared to controls despite the fact that the overall size of the deltoid muscle was greater. Larsson and Tesch (29) found that bodybuilders possessed thigh circumference measurements 19% greater than controls yet the average size of their muscle fibers were not different from the controls. Furthermore, Alway et al. (3) compared the biceps brachii muscle in elite male and female bodybuilders. These investigators showed that the cross-sectional area of the biceps muscle was correlated to both fiber area and number.....

No, there is no "overcompensation" period. Muscle just magically appears on the body through no complex reactions at all. What a dumb statement Feverish. First there is breakdown, then recovery, then overcompensation (use another term if you like, but this is howit goes).

Sorry, believe what you like, but portions of a muscle can be worked and you truly are being ignorant if you think that ONE exercise per bodypart can bring about the full potential of a muscle. Do not even try to tell me or anyone that dips, kickbacks, and overhead tricep exercises do not affect the triceps muscle in different ways and work one head more significantly than another.

The more complex the muscle, the more potential to work different sections of it through various angles, grips and lines of pull. You cannot get complete back development from doing bent rows only. If you think you can, you are fooling only yourself.

Yes, I know how all of you at WBB worship Siff, but sorry, the man doesn't hold a candle to Poliquin. Siff only proved Poliquin wrong in the minds of Siff fans.

Finally, there have been multiple studies that have shown multiple sets to be more effective than single sets.

See, like I've said before there are tons of studies out there and every one that proves one thing is disproved by another. It all depends on who you choose to believe and how you choose to interpret the data.

But what is TRULY important is applying what you read to what you do in the gym in order to see what REALLY works and what doesn't. I have found out what works for me and those I train. I hope you have found out what works for you Mr Fever.

It's just too funny. What is your name? You don't have to prove anything to me, let me prove it for myself. Give me your name and let me prove you are legit for myself. You can even PM me if you want to keep it quiet. And I will come before the masses and say I was wrong if that is the case.

You say I am blind and only listen to Siff, yet you only listen to those you listed who were shown to be wrong in public forums. Incredible case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
I believe it was Prince who stated that you cannot work the lower bi and used that as a metaphor for working the upper/lower pecs. This is obviously not a good comparison since the "lower bi" runs perpendicular to the direction of the muscle fibers while the upper chest runs parallel.

just kidding.

Originally posted by Tank316
the earth was flat at one point in time,right?and then someone did incline's for the chest and the upper chest grew. any ways i hope some of the younger lifters get my meaning behind this, cus IMHO inclines work, as GP stated with these movements....
45 degree inclines d-b press
30 degree smith incline press
60 degree incline flye
d-b pullovers

if you believe in science, then dont try them, but if you believe in hard work, then your upper chest will respond in some way!!!

Originally posted by Tank316
if you believe in science, then dont try them, but if you believe in hard work, then your upper chest will respond in some way!!!

They can quote all the science they want, inclines work
I know that for a fact and all I have to do is look in the mirror, I don't need to read a book.

Originally posted by Saturday Fever
You say I am blind and only listen to Siff, yet you only listen to those you listed who were shown to be wrong in public forums. Incredible case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Again, only "proven" wrong by those that choose to believe Siff. Siff is not the end all be all of trainers. There are so many excellent, talented, innovative and brilliant trainers/coaches out there and they all have different opinions based on THEIR OWN research and experience. If you listen to the ideas of only 1 or 2 men and discard what all others say without actually utilizing the different ideas/methods yourself, you truly ARE blind. This is why I have systematically tried just about every training method known to man (within reason) and have seen with my own two eyes through bodyfat tests, strength tests, on field tests (with athletes), etc, what is working and what is not. I AM MY OWN SCIENTIST, and so is any successful trainer/coach.

Originally posted by gopro
I will not argue it in the same way I do not bother arguing the efficacy of glutamine anymore.

you sure?

in the end, what really matters is....it's all PreMier's fault.

PreMier = instigator

(I think he started this on purpose)

Originally posted by Prince
you sure?

Guess I blew that one huh? LOL

From what I have read, I agree with Eric.

But what do I know about training, I am from Avant.

BTW, I'd love to see the science that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot emphasize a portion of a muscle over another portion.

I don't think anyone is arguing "emphasis." We all agree on that.

Originally posted by Prince
PreMier = instigator

(I think he started this on purpose)

Just another thread about the topic that has ended in name calling and no definitive answer. Everyone is still stubbornly holding to their beliefs. I tend to think a certain portion of a muscle can't be stimulated to grow without the rest, but there is a lot of compelling evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm going to take a neutral stance on the subject from here on out.

I will continue to use a variety of lifts because it works best for me. This may simply be a result of adaptation to a certain movement, but it may also be due to the fact that different fibers are stimulated. Either way, I know what works best for me; that is all that matters.

Originally posted by Prince
PreMier = instigator

(I think he started this on purpose)

Yes, I did start this on purpose

I like to see two good sides of a debate, just liek anyone does. Sorry for any hurt feelings this may have caused

TwinPeak- Obviously you know something about training or else everyone here at IM would look better than you. Again sorry.

yeah, but it's similar to arguing if god exists.

no one can really prove he does, or does not.

Originally posted by Prince
yeah, but it's similar to arguing if god exists.

no one can really prove he does, or does not.

Say what ?

After thoroughly reading this thread, and without trying to get in the middle of it, I have to say that I completely agree with SF's side of the argument. Just my personal opinion. Maybe because I have read a lot of Supertraining myself, and its based on years and years of proven science.

Also SF's gains in the past year speak for themselves, IMO. Those of you who have followed him from WBB to DF and finally here (hopefully to stay), know exactly what I am talking about.

And is that the BCC I think it is?

Yes, and I hope he starts to post regularly.

BTW, what's your name so I can check out some of the competitions you've been in? How about the names of your clients you've prepped?

I hate to say this, but I have to completely agree. This is surely not too much to ask if all of the claims gopro has made are legit.

Yes, Supertraining is THE Bible

Many feel this way, and coincidentally, those that do feel this way always manage to make amazing progress.

Yes, I know how all of you at WBB worship Siff, but sorry, the man doesn't hold a candle to Poliquin. Siff only proved Poliquin wrong in the minds of Siff fans.

I really really wish that this would please stop. I am not sure why you continue to again and again bring up WBB here in these debates. WBB has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Maybe in your past you have gotten into debates over at WBB, but I don't see how that's relevant.

But what do I know about training, I am from Avant.

This stereotype about Avant is ridiculous as well, IMO. I don't know how exactly it started but I think it's absurd.

Originally posted by MonStar
After thoroughly reading this thread, and without trying to get in the middle of it, I have to say that I completely agree with SF's side of the argument. Just my personal opinion. Maybe because I have read a lot of Supertraining myself, and its based on years and years of proven science.

Also SF's gains in the past year speak for themselves, IMO. Those of you who have followed him from WBB to DF and finally here (hopefully to stay), know exactly what I am talking about.


Yes, and I hope he starts to post regularly.


I hate to say this, but I have to completely agree. This is surely not too much to ask if all of the claims gopro has made are legit.


Many feel this way, and coincidentally, those that do feel this way always manage to make amazing progress.


I really really wish that this would please stop. I am not sure why you continue to again and again bring up WBB here in these debates. WBB has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Maybe in your past you have gotten into debates over at WBB, but I don't see how that's relevant.


This stereotype about Avant is ridiculous as well, IMO. I don't know how exactly it started but I think it's absurd.

Mon, I am not suprised at all that you agree with SNF/Siff...you are a WBB regular and of ANY board I have ever seen that is THE most closed minded of them all. I have said it before and I'll say it again...If GOD himself came down to earth and told (certain people at) WBB that they all are wrong about their beliefs in training, and that muscle shaping is possible (as an example), they all would reply..."Well, umm, do you have a study to back that up GOD? Huh, do ya?"

As far as Supertraining goes...I have read most of it myself, and while I feel it is yet another excellent book, it is CERTAINLY NOT the last word on training.

As far as SF's gains...I'm glad he's made great gains, but so have alot of people. Have you read the Gopro's workout thread. IF you only had the balls to have gone against the "powers that be" at WBB and actually stuck to the program for more than a day, YOU TOO would have made outstanding progress if you did it right. I have gained over 130 lbs of muscle naturally and went from benching the bar to maxing 495 at my strongest point. So, does that say anything? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but the point is, who knows if SNF could have done even BETTER on my or someone elses program.

Now for the most ridiculous part of your and several of SNF's posts..."what is your real name gopro???" First of all, it is so ridiculously easy to find out who I am that a six year old could figure it out if he has two eyes. But more importantly, what in the hell will it prove? Do you want me to list every contest I was in and where I placed? And if I do, what will it prove? And what else do you hope to find out? Every client I have trained in my life and how well they did? Or do you want to read all of my published articles. Or do you want to see the gym I owned? Do you want to know my certifications? I'll list them. Hell, if you REALLY are dying to see me and know me I'll take few pics of myself. This is just so freaking silly.

And about Supertraining and the progress everyone makes on the program...cool, but people also make outstanding progress on MY program. Many did well on Mentzer's. Tons of elite athletes swear by Poliquin. Then we have Dante's Dogcrapp training, Ian King's methods, Charles Staley's methods, Charles Glass's, and Westside. The one common thing about all of these is that people consistently do well and make progress proving that there is more than one way to do this, and that several people have discovered outstanding methods.

Finally, I only bring up WBB b/c I KNEW where SNF came from just by the way he argued his points and by who he quotes. Not WBB as a whole, but several members/mods over there are sooo arrogant in what they "think" they know, without allowing any other possibilities that its absolutely amazing to me. I just saw a common theme with SNF, and wanted to confirm my thoughts.

In closing...at one point in time people were sure the world was flat, just as the upper chest would be without inclines.

Originally posted by gopro
Every client I have trained in my life and how well they did? Do you want me to list every contest I was in and where I placed? And if I do, what will it prove?

competence?

you are a WBB regular and of ANY board I have ever seen that is THE most closed minded of them all.

I am assuming that you're serious in posting this? I have not posted on WBB in over a year, so I am really not sure what you're talking about with this statement.

IF you only had the balls to have gone against the "powers that be" at WBB and actually stuck to the program for more than a day, YOU TOO would have made outstanding progress if you did it right.

If I had the balls to go against the powers that be at WBB? I am not advocate of WBB, nor do I agree with everything that's posted at the site. I am not sure why you continue bringing up WBB. It honestly has absolutely no relevancy here at all. Maybe WBB is the last time anyone debated in favor of Supertraining?

I have gained over 130 lbs of muscle naturally and went from benching the bar to maxing 495 at my strongest point.

This seems a little far fetched. Over 130 lbs. of muscle naturally? Do you have before and after pics or any kind of proof at all other than just your word?

First of all, it is so ridiculously easy to find out who I am that a six year old could figure it out if he has two eyes.

I don't think that asking for your first and last name is too much to ask at all. Just simply say what your first and last name is. Or PM myself or gopro with it. The bottom line is that if you are absolutely confident in your training methods, competitions, etc. You should have nothing to hide. And I personally do not want to go searching around for your last name, when its such a simple question, I believe "a six year old" could answer what his last name was.

The one common thing about all of these is that people consistently do well and make progress proving that there is more than one way to do this, and that several people have discovered outstanding methods.

I agree with that. That there are different ways to train, etc. But also consider that when years and years of science can back up a certain way to train, it is the most logical method to employ. I think most people are more likely to use training methods that science has proven effective, rather than just someone's word, etc.

Also, gopro, since your name is pretty big here at this site, why don't you keep a journal here at IM? I mean it would certainly help to back a lot of what you say. If you look at guys who have had the same journal for a year or more, and the gains that they have made, etc. It really helps to look at what worked well for them, etc.

Several people use Gopro's methods and I believe are keeping logs. Rissole, Tank, Firestorm, Sapphire, to name a few.

It's pretty simple to click on Eric's sig to find out his name.... Plus he has written several articles for IM.

Eric Broser—Head Trainer
16 Years Experience in the Fitness and Nutrition Field
Certified by the International Sports Sciences Association
Certified in ACE Freestyle Training (Specializing in women’s training needs)
Certified in Strength and Sports Coaching Theory
Certified by the National Academy of Health and Fitness (NAHF) as a Specialist in Advanced Nutrition
Certified Therapeutic Swiss Ball Trainer
Graduate of the ICS School of Fitness and Nutrition
Former “Mr. Natural Eastern USA”