to be aesthetic like Serge Nubret or to be a monster like ronn and the big guys?

Rob_NC · 04-26-2004, 09:22 AM

I just HOPE that I can look 1/2 as good as Zane does when I reach his age.

OceanDude · 04-26-2004, 09:53 AM

About the gut thing, it is important to know that Arnold was one of the most "expert" at the vacuum technique and had incredible muscle control over the abdominal muscles. I am certain that he was using this to "suck" it in to give the natural appearance of an ultra thin mid-section that belies his incredible mass.

Ronnie, is probably blessed genetically with few subcutaneous fat cells and I suspect that he is probably "cursed" in the amount of fat he caries internally. If my conjecture is accurate he is actually carrying a lot of organ fat in the mid section and may have a physically large gut system that is necessary to support his high mass diet and high metabolism without starving. It certainly looks like he enjoys just letting it hang out and rely on the lean subcutaneous fat and visible abs to offset the bulging internal non-muscle mass with what is essentially an illusion technique.

OD

Vieope · 04-26-2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
few subcutaneous fat cells

People can get so fat that it might exist a non-subcutaneous fat ?

OceanDude · 04-26-2004, 10:44 AM

Oh yeah, for sure they can! I have this problem actually. I had my subcutaneous fat down to like 12% based on a 3 point measurement technique. But I still had a fairly thick waist. I am 100% certain that this is mostly because of internal organ fat. The way to confirm it is to take an electronic fat reading device which will measure the internal fat too. It will show that you have a much higher reading in general (especially as you get older) than what the calipers show. There are 3 kinds of fat storage: 1) subcutaneous fat (under the skin) 2) organ fat (around the heart, liver, gut etc.) and 3) intramuscular fat that is very similar to what you see in a cut of steak. By the way, organ fat can be of some benefit since it provides a cushion against vibration and impacts for vital organs. But I have theories about why a lot of obese people have severe heartburn and feelings and difficulty breathing. Basically it’s not rocket science. I think that it’s all the internal fat occupying the cavity volume and compressing or restricting the stomach, intestines and lungs in a way that causes severe discomfort.

Some people store more fat internally since they have fewer fat cells located in the skin. This is a function of genetics and why some weight lifters are able to get massive and still have a well defined abdominal area and muscle definition. Such individuals store the excess internally. This is why I am a big believer in measuring fitness by a strength-to-weight ratio instead of just how much you can lift.
-OD

**Mudge** · 04-26-2004, 10:48 AM

Supposedly asian peoples have high amounts of visceral fat with lower amounts of subQ fat. This is all of course by statistics, which sometimes wont be accurate for individuals.

Vieope · 04-26-2004, 12:09 PM

That is very interesting but do you think that fat number 2 and 3 in your list influence how shredded somebody may look? Through proper dieting they all can be "burned" ?

OceanDude · 04-26-2004, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vieope
That is very interesting but do you think that fat number 2 and 3 in your list influence how shredded somebody may look? Through proper dieting they all can be "burned" ?

I do think it is very possible for a person with low subcutaneous body fat to look very shredded and still be carrying substantial organ and intramuscular fat. I would go so far as to say that a person could look good and be carrying a 6 back (like Ronnie Coleman) and still have a lot of lard in his gut on the inside to support the mass. Such a genetically predisposed person would still appear to be in great shape but he would be thicker than an equivalent person with lower overall body fat and possibly be mistaken for having more mass (well it is mass but it ain't lean).

I believe that with proper eating and activity any fat above about 6 or 7% (total bodfy fat mind you) can be burned but I do believe that there is a preferred order or priority protocol as to what goes first and how fast and in what ratios to other things it will be depleted. I think it could take a substantial time depending on body chemistry and genetic makeup. I also personally believe it depends on how long the body has been in an obese state prior to attempting a transformation. I have no science to back this opinion up only my own experiences and observations.

-OD

Vieope · 04-26-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I do think it is very possible for a person with low subcutaneous body fat to look very shredded and still be carrying substantial organ and intramuscular fat.

Oh, thanks.. that is what I wanted to know.
It is all about vanity

**CowPimp** · 04-26-2004, 01:03 PM

I would much rather be asthetically pleasing. I don't care about freakish size. I would prefer noticeable size with freakish strength. Granted, I give respect to those who can develop ridiculous size because it takes serious hard work and amazing genetics, but it's not for me.

ALBOB · 04-26-2004, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LAM I like Bob Paris

Damn LAM, you've been out of the Navy how long? And you're still chasing men? I'm gonna have to re-think that work-out with you.

Flex · 04-26-2004, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oliver10_28_2k
be a monster like ronn and the big guys?

gimme the MONSTER size.

Flex · 04-26-2004, 04:28 PM

anyone can be aesthetique.

not everyone can be like this...
http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder...e/colema38.jpg

**Prince** · 04-26-2004, 04:30 PM

Bob looked good. (his physique

)

Flex · 04-26-2004, 04:33 PM

personally, i think Flex Wheeler of i think it was '98 had the best physique of all time.

size and aesthetiques.....
http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder...e/wheele03.jpg

this was before he bulked way up to try and compete with the mass monsters. unfortunately, he never achieved the size (although he was close) of Ronnie, and unfortunately that's what the judges seem to be after nowadays.

**Prince** · 04-26-2004, 04:38 PM

Yup, Flex was very gifted, awesome shape & symmetry.

3 Arnold Classic wins, two 2nd and one 3rd place finishe at the Mr. Olympia....

Flex · 04-26-2004, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flex
personally, i think Flex Wheeler of i think it was '98 had the best physique of all time.

besides Arnold of course

LAM · 04-26-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Robert DiMaggio
Bob looked good. (his physique

)

lol ! it's a good thing you added in that last comment Prince...

oliver10_28_2k · 04-29-2004, 10:04 PM

Yah I guess the small waistline is the plus factor to the pioneers of bb... It gives them the v shape and makes the upper body appear bigger than it really is. I idolize people who are massive and yet have small waistlines because that thing is hard to do naturaly.

PreMier · 04-29-2004, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Arnold's legs were puny but otherwise, if that picture was not photoshop enhanced then Arnold looks a million times better.

I dont think its photoshoped

http://ironage.us/virtual/index.html

PreMier · 04-29-2004, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
This is why I am a big believer in measuring fitness by a strength-to-weight ratio instead of just how much you can lift.
-OD

This is totally wrong... The smaller a person is the higher up on the scale they will be. That is if I am reading this correctly?

Your saying since a smaller person can lift 2x their weight, while a larger person can do 1.5x, that the smaller person is more fit?

oliver10_28_2k · 04-29-2004, 10:24 PM

more fit may not be the best word because strength alone doesn't make you fitter than the other. Stronger perhaps, not necessarily fitter...

PreMier · 04-29-2004, 10:27 PM

They are not stronger though. Its easier to move a lighter weight. So smaller people have the advantage. Take a look at some powerlifting records. Actually I will post some. The big guys dont go up as steadily as the smaller guys(I mean lift wise.)

PreMier · 04-29-2004, 10:29 PM

The 198Lb class almost to the 318Lb class are very close. Heavier weight is harder to move wether you are bigger or not.
http://www.adfpa.com/records/nationa...highschool.htm

oliver10_28_2k · 04-29-2004, 10:54 PM

oh i see, well I guess there really should be more tests to determine a person's fitness level beside strength..

PreMier · 04-29-2004, 11:01 PM

Oh, and I like Dorian or Arnold

oliver10_28_2k · 04-29-2004, 11:12 PM

Yeah no doubt those two rock... I was just wondering why Serge Nubret didn't win in any mr.Olympia event when his is massive, proportional, and defined. That guy's physique is definitely a work of art.

Check this out

04-26-2004, 09:22 AM	#31
Rob_NC Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,179	I just HOPE that I can look 1/2 as good as Zane does when I reach his age.
	Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.

04-26-2004, 09:53 AM	#32
OceanDude Well Read Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cape Canaveral, FL Posts: 1,853	About the gut thing, it is important to know that Arnold was one of the most "expert" at the vacuum technique and had incredible muscle control over the abdominal muscles. I am certain that he was using this to "suck" it in to give the natural appearance of an ultra thin mid-section that belies his incredible mass. Ronnie, is probably blessed genetically with few subcutaneous fat cells and I suspect that he is probably "cursed" in the amount of fat he caries internally. If my conjecture is accurate he is actually carrying a lot of organ fat in the mid section and may have a physically large gut system that is necessary to support his high mass diet and high metabolism without starving. It certainly looks like he enjoys just letting it hang out and rely on the lean subcutaneous fat and visible abs to offset the bulging internal non-muscle mass with what is essentially an illusion technique. OD
	"Doc, If I had known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself..." Est unusquisque faber ipsae suae fortunae. We Americans scoff at the likes of African witch doctors yet spend 100's of millions of dollars on fake reducing systems. The only regular exercise he gets is stretching the truth. His intellect is not replenished, he is only an animal, only sensible in the duller parts...

04-26-2004, 10:44 AM	#34
OceanDude Well Read Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cape Canaveral, FL Posts: 1,853	Oh yeah, for sure they can! I have this problem actually. I had my subcutaneous fat down to like 12% based on a 3 point measurement technique. But I still had a fairly thick waist. I am 100% certain that this is mostly because of internal organ fat. The way to confirm it is to take an electronic fat reading device which will measure the internal fat too. It will show that you have a much higher reading in general (especially as you get older) than what the calipers show. There are 3 kinds of fat storage: 1) subcutaneous fat (under the skin) 2) organ fat (around the heart, liver, gut etc.) and 3) intramuscular fat that is very similar to what you see in a cut of steak. By the way, organ fat can be of some benefit since it provides a cushion against vibration and impacts for vital organs. But I have theories about why a lot of obese people have severe heartburn and feelings and difficulty breathing. Basically it’s not rocket science. I think that it’s all the internal fat occupying the cavity volume and compressing or restricting the stomach, intestines and lungs in a way that causes severe discomfort. Some people store more fat internally since they have fewer fat cells located in the skin. This is a function of genetics and why some weight lifters are able to get massive and still have a well defined abdominal area and muscle definition. Such individuals store the excess internally. This is why I am a big believer in measuring fitness by a strength-to-weight ratio instead of just how much you can lift. -OD
	"Doc, If I had known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself..." Est unusquisque faber ipsae suae fortunae. We Americans scoff at the likes of African witch doctors yet spend 100's of millions of dollars on fake reducing systems. The only regular exercise he gets is stretching the truth. His intellect is not replenished, he is only an animal, only sensible in the duller parts...

04-26-2004, 10:48 AM	#35
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,997 Photos: 1	Supposedly asian peoples have high amounts of visceral fat with lower amounts of subQ fat. This is all of course by statistics, which sometimes wont be accurate for individuals.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

04-26-2004, 12:09 PM	#36
Vieope Monochromatic Bunny Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: drinking coffee.. Posts: 14,817 Photos: 10	That is very interesting but do you think that fat number 2 and 3 in your list influence how shredded somebody may look? Through proper dieting they all can be "burned" ?
	FURtherness

04-26-2004, 01:03 PM	#39
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,405	I would much rather be asthetically pleasing. I don't care about freakish size. I would prefer noticeable size with freakish strength. Granted, I give respect to those who can develop ridiculous size because it takes serious hard work and amazing genetics, but it's not for me.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

04-26-2004, 04:28 PM	#42
Flex FLEXecutioner Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Pomping Iyuhn Posts: 6,278 Photos: 2	anyone can be aesthetique. not everyone can be like this... http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder...e/colema38.jpg
	You're a funny guy, Sully, I like you. Dat's why I'm going to kill you lahst. * Got juice?Need Motivation?How to Train* Arnold vs. Ronnie vs. Haney vs. Sergio YEAH BUDDY...LIGHT WEIGHT!Ahhnold*

04-26-2004, 04:33 PM	#44
Flex FLEXecutioner Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Pomping Iyuhn Posts: 6,278 Photos: 2	personally, i think Flex Wheeler of i think it was '98 had the best physique of all time. size and aesthetiques..... http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder...e/wheele03.jpg this was before he bulked way up to try and compete with the mass monsters. unfortunately, he never achieved the size (although he was close) of Ronnie, and unfortunately that's what the judges seem to be after nowadays.
	You're a funny guy, Sully, I like you. Dat's why I'm going to kill you lahst. * Got juice?Need Motivation?How to Train* Arnold vs. Ronnie vs. Haney vs. Sergio YEAH BUDDY...LIGHT WEIGHT!Ahhnold*

04-26-2004, 04:38 PM	#45
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,520 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 313	Yup, Flex was very gifted, awesome shape & symmetry. 3 Arnold Classic wins, two 2nd and one 3rd place finishe at the Mr. Olympia....
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips!

04-29-2004, 10:04 PM	#48
oliver10_28_2k grungeboy Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 77 Photos: 2	Yah I guess the small waistline is the plus factor to the pioneers of bb... It gives them the v shape and makes the upper body appear bigger than it really is. I idolize people who are massive and yet have small waistlines because that thing is hard to do naturaly.
	(you think i got my eyes closed but i've been lookin' at you the whole f#@$in' time...) once upon a time i could control myself once upon a time i could lose myself once upon a time i could love myself once upon a time i could love you

04-29-2004, 10:24 PM	#51
oliver10_28_2k grungeboy Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 77 Photos: 2	more fit may not be the best word because strength alone doesn't make you fitter than the other. Stronger perhaps, not necessarily fitter...
	(you think i got my eyes closed but i've been lookin' at you the whole f#@$in' time...) once upon a time i could control myself once upon a time i could lose myself once upon a time i could love myself once upon a time i could love you

04-29-2004, 10:27 PM	#52
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,055 Photos: 2	They are not stronger though. Its easier to move a lighter weight. So smaller people have the advantage. Take a look at some powerlifting records. Actually I will post some. The big guys dont go up as steadily as the smaller guys(I mean lift wise.)
	P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

04-29-2004, 10:29 PM	#53
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,055 Photos: 2	The 198Lb class almost to the 318Lb class are very close. Heavier weight is harder to move wether you are bigger or not. http://www.adfpa.com/records/nationa...highschool.htm
	P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

04-29-2004, 10:54 PM	#54
oliver10_28_2k grungeboy Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 77 Photos: 2	oh i see, well I guess there really should be more tests to determine a person's fitness level beside strength..
	(you think i got my eyes closed but i've been lookin' at you the whole f#@$in' time...) once upon a time i could control myself once upon a time i could lose myself once upon a time i could love myself once upon a time i could love you

04-29-2004, 11:01 PM	#55
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,055 Photos: 2	Oh, and I like Dorian or Arnold
	P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

04-29-2004, 11:12 PM	#56
oliver10_28_2k grungeboy Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 77 Photos: 2	Yeah no doubt those two rock... I was just wondering why Serge Nubret didn't win in any mr.Olympia event when his is massive, proportional, and defined. That guy's physique is definitely a work of art. Check this out