To fail or not to fail

muppy · 05-01-2004, 02:32 PM

Hi everyone,
I'm confused. I've just started out training and am reading as much as I can about weight training in an attempt to get it right and see results, but theres a lot of conflicting advice out there!

I'm a 5'6 112lbs (50kg) woman 25yrs and am looking to get lean muscle and defined. I'm currently doing a 2 way split with 2 reps 12 til fatigued plus cardio.Am lowering carbs and upping protein. I've read about 'power of 10' 10 reps heavy weight to failure once a week per body part and am wondering if this is the way to go? I'm using machines and free weights but as I'm beginner my form is weak with the free weight but I'm persevering and taking instruction sheets to gym with me!

In your experience should I be going to failure or just building stregnth and endurance first? I don't want to waste time doing the wrong thing. Any input greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone

Yanick · 05-01-2004, 03:53 PM

Lots of different opinions about to failure training. Personally i like to keep 1 or 2 in the hole and go for a little more volume, i'm also partial to the 5x5 and 10x10 (German Volume Training) routines. I personally think cumulative fatigue workouts are great for hypertrophy.

BTW, do some searches, on google/IM for german volume training, cumulative fatigue, Central Nervous System overtraining etc. After a little reading you should have a better understanding of both sides of the debate.

**CowPimp** · 05-01-2004, 05:11 PM

There are tons of different training methods that are effective. You have to try out different ones to see which one gives you the best results. You also have to switch up your routine periodically.

To start out I would suggest a lot of compound exercises at higher reps (12-15) to build a foundation and learn some better muscle control. Once you reach that point, you can start to get more specific in terms of what you want to develop, lower repititons, etc.

I have a standard routine which I suggest to beginners to help build a foundation. Do the following 3 days per week in any way it works into your schedule:

3 x Full Squats 12-15
3 x Romanian Deadlifts 12-15

3 x Chinups 12-15
3 x Deadlifts 12-15

3 x Bench Press 12-15
3 x Military Press 12-15

3 x Bicycle Crunch to Failure
3 x Reverse Crunch to Failure

Don't be discouraged if you can't do 12 chinups or 12 repititions with the bar for bench press. That strength will come in time. Make sure to reserach the proper form on all of these lifts. As well, read the stickied threads at the top of the training and diet & nutrition forums as diet is extremely important no matter what your goals are.

**Prince** · 05-01-2004, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by muppy
I'm confused. I've just started out training and am reading as much as I can about weight training in an attempt to get it right and see results, but theres a lot of conflicting advice out there!

that is an understatement!

the bottom line is you need to find out what works best for you, no one can tell you this and there is no single "correct" program to follow. There is a lot of trial and error, hopefully the more you read and educate yourself you will avoid the common mistakes.

If I were you I would keep doing what you're doing as long as it's working and you do not become bored, at that point change it.

muppy · 05-02-2004, 04:04 PM

Thanks everyone,
I really appreciate the advice! It can all get a bit overwhelming when you haven't got the experience behind you.

**P-funk** · 05-02-2004, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by muppy
Thanks everyone,
I really appreciate the advice! It can all get a bit overwhelming when you haven't got the experience behind you.

trial and error lead to experience.

JerseyDevil · 05-02-2004, 05:17 PM

Muppy, you've received great advice here. One thing I'd like to add is concerning the free weight movements. You are very smart indeed to recognize your form is weak. Don't worry about going to failure or maxing out, until you have the proper form down.

Too many times, people try to go to failure using bad form and that can ultimately lead to injury. Free weights have the advantage over machines of working the stabilizer muscles, but when you first start out, your stabilizers will be very weak, and the weight will seem hard to control. Just perservere, and in no time you'll find the right 'groove'. Good luck, and welcome to IM!

BUSTINOUT · 05-02-2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by P-funk
trial and error lead to experience.

As long as you learn from the trial and error.

It is better to have ten years of experience, then to have one year of experience ten times.

JerseyDevil · 05-02-2004, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BUSTINOUT
As long as you learn from the trial and error.

It is better to have ten years of experience, then to have one year of experience ten times.

That reminds of a story a lawyer friend of mine relayed to me.

He was arguing a patent infringement case, and things were going his way. The opposing counsel in frustration stood up and said "Your honor, I have over 30 years of experience in arguing these types of cases and...", the judge interrupted him, and looking over his glasses said "That doesn't mean you've been doing it right."

muppy · 05-02-2004, 06:50 PM

Thanks guys. I appreciate the tips.

I was trying to go to failure on the machines today to see what its like but I'm sticking to light weights on the free weights at least til I know I'm doing it right.
When I couldn't push the weights any more I kept trying and was shaking loads but didn't get much if any of the 'burn' I've read so much about. What am I doing wrong? I know that I felt very spent and wobbly and ,(I say this risking sounding like a complete sissy so you can tell me to get out if you like),I felt very emotional. Don't get me wrong I didn' t start crying in the middle of the workout or anything, but it was just something I noticed. I wondered if this a phenomenon unique to me? What does it feel like for everyone else?

Premo55 · 05-02-2004, 09:03 PM

I don't think failure is absolutely necessary, rather it should be something you do alternately. I don't go to failure in every workout personally. To the dude who mentioned 5x5 and GVT protocols, yes, those are great training methods, I used to do those as well.

Peace.

05-01-2004, 02:32 PM	#1
muppy Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: london uk Posts: 13	To fail or not to fail Hi everyone, I'm confused. I've just started out training and am reading as much as I can about weight training in an attempt to get it right and see results, but theres a lot of conflicting advice out there! I'm a 5'6 112lbs (50kg) woman 25yrs and am looking to get lean muscle and defined. I'm currently doing a 2 way split with 2 reps 12 til fatigued plus cardio.Am lowering carbs and upping protein. I've read about 'power of 10' 10 reps heavy weight to failure once a week per body part and am wondering if this is the way to go? I'm using machines and free weights but as I'm beginner my form is weak with the free weight but I'm persevering and taking instruction sheets to gym with me! In your experience should I be going to failure or just building stregnth and endurance first? I don't want to waste time doing the wrong thing. Any input greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone

05-01-2004, 03:53 PM	#2
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,798	Lots of different opinions about to failure training. Personally i like to keep 1 or 2 in the hole and go for a little more volume, i'm also partial to the 5x5 and 10x10 (German Volume Training) routines. I personally think cumulative fatigue workouts are great for hypertrophy. BTW, do some searches, on google/IM for german volume training, cumulative fatigue, Central Nervous System overtraining etc. After a little reading you should have a better understanding of both sides of the debate.
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,798	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

05-01-2004, 05:11 PM	#3
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	There are tons of different training methods that are effective. You have to try out different ones to see which one gives you the best results. You also have to switch up your routine periodically. To start out I would suggest a lot of compound exercises at higher reps (12-15) to build a foundation and learn some better muscle control. Once you reach that point, you can start to get more specific in terms of what you want to develop, lower repititons, etc. I have a standard routine which I suggest to beginners to help build a foundation. Do the following 3 days per week in any way it works into your schedule: 3 x Full Squats 12-15 3 x Romanian Deadlifts 12-15 3 x Chinups 12-15 3 x Deadlifts 12-15 3 x Bench Press 12-15 3 x Military Press 12-15 3 x Bicycle Crunch to Failure 3 x Reverse Crunch to Failure Don't be discouraged if you can't do 12 chinups or 12 repititions with the bar for bench press. That strength will come in time. Make sure to reserach the proper form on all of these lifts. As well, read the stickied threads at the top of the training and diet & nutrition forums as diet is extremely important no matter what your goals are.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

05-02-2004, 09:03 PM	#11
Premo55 Mic Murderer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 1,059	I don't think failure is absolutely necessary, rather it should be something you do alternately. I don't go to failure in every workout personally. To the dude who mentioned 5x5 and GVT protocols, yes, those are great training methods, I used to do those as well. Peace.
	T DOT O.

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05-02-2004, 04:04 PM	#5
muppy Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: london uk Posts: 13	Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the advice! It can all get a bit overwhelming when you haven't got the experience behind you.

05-02-2004, 05:17 PM	#7
JerseyDevil GO Buckeyes! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Southern, NJ Posts: 5,181	Muppy, you've received great advice here. One thing I'd like to add is concerning the free weight movements. You are very smart indeed to recognize your form is weak. Don't worry about going to failure or maxing out, until you have the proper form down. Too many times, people try to go to failure using bad form and that can ultimately lead to injury. Free weights have the advantage over machines of working the stabilizer muscles, but when you first start out, your stabilizers will be very weak, and the weight will seem hard to control. Just perservere, and in no time you'll find the right 'groove'. Good luck, and welcome to IM!

05-02-2004, 06:50 PM	#10
muppy Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: london uk Posts: 13	Thanks guys. I appreciate the tips. I was trying to go to failure on the machines today to see what its like but I'm sticking to light weights on the free weights at least til I know I'm doing it right. When I couldn't push the weights any more I kept trying and was shaking loads but didn't get much if any of the 'burn' I've read so much about. What am I doing wrong? I know that I felt very spent and wobbly and ,(I say this risking sounding like a complete sissy so you can tell me to get out if you like),I felt very emotional. Don't get me wrong I didn' t start crying in the middle of the workout or anything, but it was just something I noticed. I wondered if this a phenomenon unique to me? What does it feel like for everyone else?