Do you deadlift more than you squat?

**CowPimp** · 07-08-2004, 03:30 AM

Does powerlifting form for squats apply to full squats as well?

KataMaStEr · 07-08-2004, 03:55 AM

My squat is 70lbs less than my deadlift, deadlift has always been my best lift.

**gopro** · 07-08-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock405

for me it helps prevents hyperextension. it also helps increase (ITP intrathoraic pressure). i played college football and my strength coach made all of use wear wieght belts, and i've never stopped since.

I agree with you. I wear a belt on all of my top end sets, even though I work real hard on my core strength. In fact, I am a certified core strength trainer. Still, I like the feeling of the belt around my waist and what it does for my lifts. I would like to wear my belt at all times during training, but do not use it until I am past my warmups and onto my true sets. I have never had a low back injury, except for when I squatted heavily for reps. The problem with people and belts is when they use it purely as a crutch and make no effort to fully strengthen the core..this is when problems arise.

SNF is not wrong in what he is saying as he brings up a good point, but it is not the view of all strength coaches that wearing a belt is wrong. SNF is influenced by a certain few trainers, and has adopted their thinking as his mantra on lifting. And this is excellent if it works for him.

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akateros

So... Saturday Night, if you do squat with your quads, and pull more than you squat, anything you can recommend to address the issue? (Assuming the squatter in question is going into it with fucked knees in the first place.)

Glad you asked. The first thing you can do is learn to squat by sitting back and not sitting down. I've linked the best article ever written on proper squat technique.

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....=body_120squat

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Does powerlifting form for squats apply to full squats as well?

I define a full squat as a squat to parallel. And yes, the form never changes. You might use a box for purposes of training your ability to explode out of the hole. Or you may do partial ROM squats to fight through sticking points, but the form is always the same. If it isn't, you'll get hurt.

**Prince** · 07-08-2004, 11:28 AM

from a general bodybuilding perspective using weight in the 6-12 rep range I do not think a belt is necessary for squats and it's basically a crutch.

**CowPimp** · 07-08-2004, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

I define a full squat as a squat to parallel. And yes, the form never changes. You might use a box for purposes of training your ability to explode out of the hole. Or you may do partial ROM squats to fight through sticking points, but the form is always the same. If it isn't, you'll get hurt.

I define a full squat as a squat where my ass almost hits the ground. I'm referring to a squat done in this manner.

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 11:51 AM

The form would be identical. Although squatting like that is why people complain of lower back pain. To get that low you have to round your back. It's the way the human body is made. And rounding the back with any kind of weight on the bar = quick trip to the ER.

**gopro** · 07-08-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

from a general bodybuilding perspective using weight in the 6-12 rep range I do not think a belt is necessary for squats and it's basically a crutch.

But you are special. Wannabees like me need a belt

Premo55 · 07-08-2004, 01:12 PM

I guess you don't recommend full squats, then.

Peace.

Nate · 07-08-2004, 02:23 PM

good thread.

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 02:35 PM

Well, perhaps we should all have a competition. Squat the way you want. You'll top out eventually in the high 400s, but you'll have chronis knee and lower back problems. I will squat the way I want. I will top out eventually in the high 800s and be injury free.

But on the bright side, you can always say you were doing "full squats."

**Prince** · 07-08-2004, 02:44 PM

SF can/will you provide some evidence that full squats cause knee/back problems.

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 02:46 PM

Evidence past the testimonials of this site's most accomplished bodybuilders? (you, gopro)

I will back my statements, as requested.

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 02:59 PM

This really could go back and forth, but given the testimonials of Prince and gopro, I'll simply cite two cases.

From http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/index.asp?id=44204

Quote:

Most Olympic Weightlifting Medals
Norbert Schemansky (USA) has won a record four Olympic medals, he won gold in the middle-heavyweight class in 1952, silver in the heavyweight class in 1948, and bronze in the heavyweight class in both 1960 and 1964. He intended to compete in the 1968 Olympics, when he would have been 44, but a knee injury prevented his appearance.

At the 2000 Olympics:

Quote:

Ogbeifo lost the silver medal in the world championships on body weight in November. She also had a knee injury, and her federation made a national appeal to help finance her surgery.

**Prince** · 07-08-2004, 03:18 PM

I never said that full squats caused me problems, I just said squats in general seem to have taken a toll on my back and knees over the years (I have been squatting for 16 years), my back and knees are in perfect health.

I have experienced some knee soreness the past few months (which could be due to cardio as well), and as far as my back it has nothing to do with squats or lifting. My right leg is 10mm shorter than my left and it is starting to affect some nerves in my lower back, so I am seeing a chiro to get it straigtened out. Which requires me to wear a heel lift and have 3 adjustments per week. So, I decided to help this process of of getting my spine straight it made sense to avoid any extra back stress.

I know of NO evidence to prove or even support that full squatting causes any extra stress on the knees, in fact awhile back the only evidence I could find suggested that stopping at parallel actually put more strain on your knees than going below parallel.

I do feel that once a good foundation has been built squats can be eliminated and other exercises, i.e. lunges, leg press, hack squats, can be used.

eskimo515 · 07-08-2004, 04:06 PM

this is good stuff!!!

Saturday Fever · 07-08-2004, 05:06 PM

We're confusing the depth of a squat with the form. If you squat like a powerlifter, you can go to the floor, the problem becomes one of the human body and how going to that depth will force you to round your back, putting you in an injury-prone position.

Squatting otherwise, whereas the knees are moving forward as the hips move down, will provide the aforementioned back problem, as well as apply unnecessary pressure to the knees. Squatting this way and doing partial reps, or going only to parallel is no better, though I don't know if it's any worse.

I would say the evidence would be by researching the number of Olympic squatters who are either crippled or living with painful injuries whilst only being in their 40s. I provided 2 examples, and google provides a lot more.

Here's where it gets confusing. You said a couple posts up:

Quote:

I just said squats in general seem to have taken a toll on my back and knees over the years

then said:

Quote:

my back and knees are in perfect health.

So I'm confused. If they're in perfect health, what toll have squats taken on them? I don't mean to sound standoffish, but you've mentioned twice in this thread that squats have had a negative effect on you. I merely wanted to cite your posts as backing that squatting that way leads to injuries.

**Prince** · 07-08-2004, 07:12 PM

What I meant was I never had any type of knee pain or back issues until the last year or two. So, I feel that maybe things like heavy squats are catching up with me, or maybe it's just a result of many years of weight training.

I just had my back x-rayed by the chiro and other than it being misaligned my vertabraes and disks are very healthy, no degeneration, no hernated disks, no signs of arthritis, etc.

So, yeah that did seem like a bit of a contradiction on my part.

**gopro** · 07-09-2004, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

Evidence past the testimonials of this site's most accomplished bodybuilders? (you, gopro)

I will back my statements, as requested.

Had nothing to do with my squat depth or form, because the problem occurred with several different types of squats, including the type you recommend.

Also, there are hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders that squat more than 600 lbs in "bodybuilder" form with zero back/knee problems. You CANNOT make a blanket statement that all that squat like a bodybuilder will...

1. Top out in the 400s.
2. Have either back or knee problems.

Saturday Fever · 07-09-2004, 11:22 AM

I doubt, highly, that there are hundreds of thousands of people squatting over 600 pounds.

Both you and Prince have experienced discomfort in the back and/or knees. Now you both refuse to acknowledge that squatting had anything to do with it, when in this same thread you both attributed the discomfort to squats.

As far as the kind of squatting I'm talking about, it's not the kind of form you can experiment with and use sometimes, it takes LOTS of practice and repititions to do right. I've seen guys who squat 300+ with their quads try to squat with their posterior, only to fall backwards with 205 on their shoulders.

However, I will concede that not everyone will end up with knee and back problems. I do believe most will, by a vast majority.

**gopro** · 07-09-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

I doubt, highly, that there are hundreds of thousands of people squatting over 600 pounds.

Both you and Prince have experienced discomfort in the back and/or knees. Now you both refuse to acknowledge that squatting had anything to do with it, when in this same thread you both attributed the discomfort to squats.

As far as the kind of squatting I'm talking about, it's not the kind of form you can experiment with and use sometimes, it takes LOTS of practice and repititions to do right. I've seen guys who squat 300+ with their quads try to squat with their posterior, only to fall backwards with 205 on their shoulders.

However, I will concede that not everyone will end up with knee and back problems. I do believe most will, by a vast majority.

I actually wrote the above statement wrong...what I meant to convey was that there are hundreds of thousands of bodybuilders that squat in "bodybuilding style," that will never have a back or knee problem, and that many out there can squat 600 plus in this style. In fact, I am sure quite a large percentage of people that squat in your style will also have back and/or knee problems...nobody is immune.

And as far as my back problem, while I only really felt during squats I do not necessarily attribute it to squats. I have injured my biceps before doing curls, but only feel it now when doing WG pullups.

Further, I have had periods of time during my lifting career where I trained with accomplished powerlifters, including two Westsiders, and I used their squat and deadlift technique, and I still had the same problem anytime I squatted over 400 lbs.

Do not make a blanket statement about what will happen to most that squat bodybuilding style, because there is no way to back it up. You are simply assuming, b/c of what you know about physiology and kinesiology.

**CowPimp** · 07-09-2004, 02:47 PM

Do the legs still get a decent workout squatting PL style? I want to try it, but I also want to keep my leg development going... I worry about the same thing with chest and bench pressing PL style.

Saturday Fever · 07-09-2004, 03:49 PM

Well, your quads don't get much work at all, if any. But as gopro and Prince both said, there are better ways to develop your quads.

Likewise, you can do separate chest exercises than bench to develop your pecs.

**gopro** · 07-09-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Do the legs still get a decent workout squatting PL style? I want to try it, but I also want to keep my leg development going... I worry about the same thing with chest and bench pressing PL style.

Squatting powerlifting style does not develop the thighs to the same degree as bodybuilding style, other wise powerlifters out there squatting 800, 900, 1000 lbs would have the biggest legs on earth, and they do not.

07-08-2004, 03:30 AM	#31
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Does powerlifting form for squats apply to full squats as well?
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

07-08-2004, 11:28 AM	#36
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,931 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	from a general bodybuilding perspective using weight in the 6-12 rep range I do not think a belt is necessary for squats and it's basically a crutch.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

07-08-2004, 11:51 AM	#38
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	The form would be identical. Although squatting like that is why people complain of lower back pain. To get that low you have to round your back. It's the way the human body is made. And rounding the back with any kind of weight on the bar = quick trip to the ER.
	yay.

07-08-2004, 01:12 PM	#40
Premo55 Mic Murderer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 1,059	I guess you don't recommend full squats, then. Peace.
	T DOT O.

07-08-2004, 02:23 PM	#41
Nate Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: here Posts: 321	good thread.
	www.projectnothing.com

07-08-2004, 03:55 AM	#32
KataMaStEr -==♠==- Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Sunshine State Posts: 1,960 Photos: 6	My squat is 70lbs less than my deadlift, deadlift has always been my best lift.

07-08-2004, 02:35 PM	#42
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	Well, perhaps we should all have a competition. Squat the way you want. You'll top out eventually in the high 400s, but you'll have chronis knee and lower back problems. I will squat the way I want. I will top out eventually in the high 800s and be injury free. But on the bright side, you can always say you were doing "full squats."
	yay.

07-08-2004, 02:44 PM	#43
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,931 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	SF can/will you provide some evidence that full squats cause knee/back problems.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

07-08-2004, 02:46 PM	#44
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	Evidence past the testimonials of this site's most accomplished bodybuilders? (you, gopro) I will back my statements, as requested.
	yay.

07-08-2004, 03:18 PM	#46
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,931 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	I never said that full squats caused me problems, I just said squats in general seem to have taken a toll on my back and knees over the years (I have been squatting for 16 years), my back and knees are in perfect health. I have experienced some knee soreness the past few months (which could be due to cardio as well), and as far as my back it has nothing to do with squats or lifting. My right leg is 10mm shorter than my left and it is starting to affect some nerves in my lower back, so I am seeing a chiro to get it straigtened out. Which requires me to wear a heel lift and have 3 adjustments per week. So, I decided to help this process of of getting my spine straight it made sense to avoid any extra back stress. I know of NO evidence to prove or even support that full squatting causes any extra stress on the knees, in fact awhile back the only evidence I could find suggested that stopping at parallel actually put more strain on your knees than going below parallel. I do feel that once a good foundation has been built squats can be eliminated and other exercises, i.e. lunges, leg press, hack squats, can be used.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

07-08-2004, 04:06 PM	#47
eskimo515 King of the Dog Freaks Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 335	this is good stuff!!!
	Because I'm not on an Atkins Diet nor would I ever do one. I'm a BB not a dieter! - Jodi

07-08-2004, 07:12 PM	#49
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,931 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	What I meant was I never had any type of knee pain or back issues until the last year or two. So, I feel that maybe things like heavy squats are catching up with me, or maybe it's just a result of many years of weight training. I just had my back x-rayed by the chiro and other than it being misaligned my vertabraes and disks are very healthy, no degeneration, no hernated disks, no signs of arthritis, etc. So, yeah that did seem like a bit of a contradiction on my part.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

07-09-2004, 11:22 AM	#51
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	I doubt, highly, that there are hundreds of thousands of people squatting over 600 pounds. Both you and Prince have experienced discomfort in the back and/or knees. Now you both refuse to acknowledge that squatting had anything to do with it, when in this same thread you both attributed the discomfort to squats. As far as the kind of squatting I'm talking about, it's not the kind of form you can experiment with and use sometimes, it takes LOTS of practice and repititions to do right. I've seen guys who squat 300+ with their quads try to squat with their posterior, only to fall backwards with 205 on their shoulders. However, I will concede that not everyone will end up with knee and back problems. I do believe most will, by a vast majority.
	yay.

07-09-2004, 02:47 PM	#53
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Do the legs still get a decent workout squatting PL style? I want to try it, but I also want to keep my leg development going... I worry about the same thing with chest and bench pressing PL style.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

07-09-2004, 03:49 PM	#54
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	Well, your quads don't get much work at all, if any. But as gopro and Prince both said, there are better ways to develop your quads. Likewise, you can do separate chest exercises than bench to develop your pecs.
	yay.