isolated/compound

bulletproof1 · 08-26-2004, 07:57 AM

i read that if you are doing a lot of isloation exercises that you need to do more sets to make progress than doing compound exercises alone. is this true or does anyone have an opinion on this?

for instance, i think most people here do about 9 sets on their biceps. if i do mostly isolated exercises how many sets would you recommend i do for bis?(without overtraining of course.)

thanks in advance.

**Mudge** · 08-26-2004, 09:57 AM

I do 4 sets for biceps, lately I am doing pretty much all dumbells for biceps and am fine with that. Other than that I do primarily compound movements for back/chest/legs. For delts I do a little dumbell work, much less than I used to because of pressing movements (incline bench etc) already covering much of that.

In the past I have done 9-12 sets of biceps, eventually becoming as much as 36 sets a week - 9 sets even in one week is way to much for me now. If you train hard, you dont need high volume IMO. Eventually my tendons start to hurt.

yellowmoomba · 08-26-2004, 10:42 AM

I agree with Mudge. I used to do 12 set for biceps even after I did back the same day. Now I do two sets of weighted Chinups and two sets of either straight bar curls or dumbell curls after my back workout (that's it for the week).

Saturday Fever · 08-26-2004, 12:21 PM

Isolation only means there is ONE joint moving. It doesn't mean anything else. The myths about doing extra work or less work on isolation movements is silly.

**gopro** · 08-26-2004, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

Isolation only means there is ONE joint moving. It doesn't mean anything else. The myths about doing extra work or less work on isolation movements is silly.

Agreed...hmmm, thats new

**dg806** · 08-26-2004, 02:19 PM

IMO if you are looking to build size, you will never do it with isolation exercises.

LAM · 08-26-2004, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

IMO if you are looking to build size, you will never do it with isolation exercises.

say what ? so doing db kickbacks with 20's won't make my triceps huge ?

Saturday Fever · 08-26-2004, 03:06 PM

That sums it up perfectly LAM. People don't understand that a bench press, being a compound movement, involves the isolated movement of extending the elbow and recruiting the triceps. And triceps will react so much better to lifting 200 than they would to lifting 20. People tend to instead think, "Yeah but I want to ISOLATE my triceps," and they don't realize that doing a compound movement requires isolating the triceps.

**gopro** · 08-26-2004, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

That sums it up perfectly LAM. People don't understand that a bench press, being a compound movement, involves the isolated movement of extending the elbow and recruiting the triceps. And triceps will react so much better to lifting 200 than they would to lifting 20. People tend to instead think, "Yeah but I want to ISOLATE my triceps," and they don't realize that doing a compound movement requires isolating the triceps.

Yes, but the load is not falling completely on the triceps when you bench press. It is the combined effort (in general) of the pecs, front delts, and triceps that are lifting the weight during a bench press.

For the greatest potential development of a muscle, I firmly believe that isolation movements are required in addition to compound movements.

**Mudge** · 08-26-2004, 04:41 PM

Shirted or CG benching hits them well, when I CG bench I stop about 2-3 inches off the chest or so. As of yet I do not wear a shirt.

Saturday Fever · 08-26-2004, 05:07 PM

There is assistance, definitely. The assistance of the other muscles is what allows you to place 200lb of tension on your triceps. Just because other muscles are involved doesn't mean the triceps aren't feeling the full 200lb, is all I'm saying. I do isolation work as an accessory, always will, to avoid angering my CNS. I just think beginners should focus on compound lifts to get a base of strength established.

**gopro** · 08-26-2004, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

There is assistance, definitely. The assistance of the other muscles is what allows you to place 200lb of tension on your triceps. Just because other muscles are involved doesn't mean the triceps aren't feeling the full 200lb, is all I'm saying. I do isolation work as an accessory, always will, to avoid angering my CNS. I just think beginners should focus on compound lifts to get a base of strength established.

I believe there will actually be more "tension" on the triceps when performing a 100 lb lying tricep extension strictly than with a 200 lb bench press. I believe that a more developed tricep would result from only performing tricep extensions than with only performing bench presses. But thats a very grey area issue. For what YOU are trying to accomplish I feel that isolation work is very secondary, but its importance grows quite a bit when someone is mostly interested in hypertrophy. Either way I agree that beginners should work mostly with compound movements no matter what the goal.

MissOz · 08-26-2004, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Yes, but the load is not falling completely on the triceps when you bench press. It is the combined effort (in general) of the pecs, front delts, and triceps that are lifting the weight during a bench press.

For the greatest potential development of a muscle, I firmly believe that isolation movements are required in addition to compound movements.

yes..I agree with you on this one g !

**gopro** · 08-26-2004, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissOz

yes..I agree with you on this one g !

Any time a yummy mummy agrees with me I'm happy!

**dg806** · 08-26-2004, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

For the greatest potential development of a muscle, I firmly believe that isolation movements are required in addition to compound movements.

Usually this is done after years of compound movements after the majority of bulk is built. Also it is done alot before contests to shape.

**dg806** · 08-26-2004, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

say what ? so doing db kickbacks with 20's won't make my triceps huge ?

Maybe if you are a 90 lb girl.

Hell you need more than that for your pinkie!

Duncans Donuts · 08-26-2004, 09:36 PM

I used to do (when I did volume traning) a lot of isolation work - specifically, for the triceps. When I eliminated all but one or two "isolation" exercises for the triceps a week and started focusing on increasing my weight on exercises like the close grip bench press (which could be cons idered a tricep exercise in itself, but still not a single joint movement) did I start to become more satisfied with my triceps.

Maybe the development will be equal or better using an exercise like a lying tricep extension, but if you're handling heavier and heavier weights on big compound lifts and eating right, progress will certainly continue either way. I'd not emphasize the need to focus on more isolation exercises. I'd consider it more a matter of preference, though that's just my point of view.

**gopro** · 08-27-2004, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Usually this is done after years of compound movements after the majority of bulk is built. Also it is done alot before contests to shape.

I used isolation exercises from the outset. Put the proper intensity and focus even into a tricep kickback and the muscle will hypertrophy. I still put on mass today with a program less focused on big compound lifts and more focused on isolation exercises.

bulletproof1 · 08-27-2004, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Any time a yummy mummy agrees with me I'm happy!

yummy mummy

**dg806** · 08-27-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I used isolation exercises from the outset. Put the proper intensity and focus even into a tricep kickback and the muscle will hypertrophy. I still put on mass today with a program less focused on big compound lifts and more focused on isolation exercises.

But you don't do entirely all isolation.....................and we also know you are a freak. 99% of people will not fall into this catagory!

**gopro** · 08-27-2004, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

But you don't do entirely all isolation.....................and we also know you are a freak. 99% of people will not fall into this catagory!

a. No, I would never tell anyone to entirely do isolation movements, but I feel they do become more important as time goes by for those looking to reach the outer limits of their muscular potential, in terms of both size and complete development. But you are right in that I still, and always will include heavy compound lifts in my training...its just that they do not dominate my program like they used to.

b. While I appreciate being called a freak, nothing could be further from the truth. I guarentee that I started out with one of the skinniest, most pathetic bodies of anyone on here. 5'11" and 125 lbs and not even ripped, was where I started. I won my first competition at a bodyweight of a paltry 168 lbs! The physique I now have is not BECAUSE of my genetics, but DESPITE my genetics.

JoeR. · 08-27-2004, 01:51 PM

Wait Wait, so doing heavy barbell curls wont make my biceps grow.....

That doesnt seem right, and I have actually seen proof that thats false. I have friends who dont even know how to train back and they have huge arms from "isolation" movements.

Saturday Fever · 08-27-2004, 02:05 PM

Nobody said it won't make your biceps grow.

**gopro** · 08-27-2004, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeR.

Wait Wait, so doing heavy barbell curls wont make my biceps grow.....

That doesnt seem right, and I have actually seen proof that thats false. I have friends who dont even know how to train back and they have huge arms from "isolation" movements.

When did anyone say that heavy curls wouldn't make the bi's grow

JoeR. · 08-27-2004, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

say what ? so doing db kickbacks with 20's won't make my triceps huge ?

Pretty much

08-26-2004, 07:57 AM	#1
bulletproof1 Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: * Posts: 2,428	isolated/compound i read that if you are doing a lot of isloation exercises that you need to do more sets to make progress than doing compound exercises alone. is this true or does anyone have an opinion on this? for instance, i think most people here do about 9 sets on their biceps. if i do mostly isolated exercises how many sets would you recommend i do for bis?(without overtraining of course.) thanks in advance.

08-26-2004, 09:57 AM	#2
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,069 Photos: 1	I do 4 sets for biceps, lately I am doing pretty much all dumbells for biceps and am fine with that. Other than that I do primarily compound movements for back/chest/legs. For delts I do a little dumbell work, much less than I used to because of pressing movements (incline bench etc) already covering much of that. In the past I have done 9-12 sets of biceps, eventually becoming as much as 36 sets a week - 9 sets even in one week is way to much for me now. If you train hard, you dont need high volume IMO. Eventually my tendons start to hurt.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-26-2004, 10:42 AM	#3
yellowmoomba YM Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 5,583 Photos: 2	I agree with Mudge. I used to do 12 set for biceps even after I did back the same day. Now I do two sets of weighted Chinups and two sets of either straight bar curls or dumbell curls after my back workout (that's it for the week).
	My Journal "You are born small and weak... you die small and weak... how you look in between is up to you."

08-26-2004, 12:21 PM	#4
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	Isolation only means there is ONE joint moving. It doesn't mean anything else. The myths about doing extra work or less work on isolation movements is silly.
	yay.

08-26-2004, 02:19 PM	#6
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,435	IMO if you are looking to build size, you will never do it with isolation exercises.
	www.sbmuscle.com

08-26-2004, 03:06 PM	#8
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	That sums it up perfectly LAM. People don't understand that a bench press, being a compound movement, involves the isolated movement of extending the elbow and recruiting the triceps. And triceps will react so much better to lifting 200 than they would to lifting 20. People tend to instead think, "Yeah but I want to ISOLATE my triceps," and they don't realize that doing a compound movement requires isolating the triceps.
	yay.

08-26-2004, 04:41 PM	#10
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,069 Photos: 1	Shirted or CG benching hits them well, when I CG bench I stop about 2-3 inches off the chest or so. As of yet I do not wear a shirt.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

08-26-2004, 05:07 PM	#11
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	There is assistance, definitely. The assistance of the other muscles is what allows you to place 200lb of tension on your triceps. Just because other muscles are involved doesn't mean the triceps aren't feeling the full 200lb, is all I'm saying. I do isolation work as an accessory, always will, to avoid angering my CNS. I just think beginners should focus on compound lifts to get a base of strength established.
	yay.

08-26-2004, 09:36 PM	#17
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	I used to do (when I did volume traning) a lot of isolation work - specifically, for the triceps. When I eliminated all but one or two "isolation" exercises for the triceps a week and started focusing on increasing my weight on exercises like the close grip bench press (which could be cons idered a tricep exercise in itself, but still not a single joint movement) did I start to become more satisfied with my triceps. Maybe the development will be equal or better using an exercise like a lying tricep extension, but if you're handling heavier and heavier weights on big compound lifts and eating right, progress will certainly continue either way. I'd not emphasize the need to focus on more isolation exercises. I'd consider it more a matter of preference, though that's just my point of view.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

08-27-2004, 01:51 PM	#22
JoeR. Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: atl Posts: 455 Photos: 13	Wait Wait, so doing heavy barbell curls wont make my biceps grow..... That doesnt seem right, and I have actually seen proof that thats false. I have friends who dont even know how to train back and they have huge arms from "isolation" movements.

08-27-2004, 02:05 PM	#23
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	Nobody said it won't make your biceps grow.
	yay.

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