Thread: Military Press vs Upright Rows

Are you doing your military press behind the neck? That's pretty much a death sentence for shoulders.

in front

Try using DBs instead. Another thing I do is only lower the DBs until my biceps are parallel with the ground. This reduces the range of motion, but definitely helps me reduce shoulder pain/strain.

if you are only going to parallel then you are pretty much just locking out your triceps.

Bent arm lateral DB raises are more direct and less stressful, provided you're warming up the shoulders thoroughly first. Don't go too heavy - moderate weight and quality reps provide superior tissue stimulation with less shoulder stress.

First though, i'd suggest that you stop the presses long enough to allow full recuperation in the shoulder area-if you don't do this first the irritation's not going to go away over time.

Upright rows have nothing to do with shoulders - traps, bi's, forearms.

Laterals and overhead pressing aren't all that different, accessory muscles not included. The joint movement is almost identical. This should be your order of preference:

1) Do the lift that allows you to move the most weight.
2) Do what doesn't hurt.

Rule 2 generally supercedes rule 1.

Originally Posted by pumpchaser

Upright rows have nothing to do with shoulders - traps, bi's, forearms.

Your doing something wrong then. If your saying when you do them the shoulders are not directly hit you should think about fixing your form.

Lateral movements are quite different and are more isolated from compound pressing moves, and as importantly, may prevent shoulder trauma - try different shoulder movements to see what will work without causing trauma.

OK let's try this from a simple joint movement perspective.

Military Press: Your elbow moves in the same plane as your body, up and down.

Laterals: Your elbow moves in the same plane as your body, up and down.

Uprights: Your elbow moves in the same plane as your body, up and down.

I am right.

You're completely off-the upper arm movement's similar through part of the motion, but comparing a compound press motion with lateral raises is like saying that standing barbell curls are the same thing as isolation DB curls. Sure they hit the same muscle, but that's where the similarity ends.

I suspect that your estimation of your knowledge far exceeds reality, based on your comments - the difference between a compound and isolation movement is beginner's stuff. I'll not bother reading any more of your mis-informed views or very predictable defensive reactions, which illustrate a low degree of understanding of the subject. Get to work and start readin' bro..

I completely see what SF is saying. He is right.

Originally Posted by pumpchaser

You're completely off-the upper arm movement's similar through part of the motion, but comparing a compound press motion with lateral raises is like saying that standing barbell curls are the same thing as isolation DB curls. Sure they hit the same muscle, but that's where the similarity ends.

I suspect that your estimation of your knowledge far exceeds reality, based on your comments - the difference between a compound and isolation movement is beginner's stuff. I'll not bother reading any more of your mis-informed views or very predictable defensive reactions, which illustrate a low degree of understanding of the subject. Get to work and start readin' bro..

lol

Originally Posted by MonStar

I completely see what SF is saying. He is right.

He knows his shit.

I never use upright rows anymore because I noticed its hard to do them without hurting your elbows, and its bad for your shoulders even with good form. Substitute other back/shoulder/trap exercises for upright rows...youre on the right track with the lateral raises

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

Are you doing your military press behind the neck? That's pretty much a death sentence for shoulders.

Not for everybody. Id say Im doing alright with them. *shrug*


But yeah.....lotsa people do get hurt with them.

Originally Posted by kick_boxer

I never use upright rows anymore because I noticed its hard to do them without hurting your elbows, and its bad for your shoulders even with good form. Substitute other back/shoulder/trap exercises for upright rows...youre on the right track with the lateral raises

Doing them with a BB may cause some pains but have you ever tried them with cables? They work awsome and I no longer have any pains in executing them.

Tough Old Man, I would suggest trying dumbells. That may do away with the pain. If not, upright rows are a pretty decent substitution. Front raises are also decent, but I can't move nearly as much weight with front raises compared to the military press.

Military presses hurt my sternum. They never used to, but they started to recently. I still do them anyway. I don't care. I really like the military press. I'll switch if the pain gets worst though.

Oh, by the way pumpchaser, I doubt you have anywhere near the knowledge that SF does when it comes to kinesiology.

You're probably right Cowpimp! *Yawn*

In terms of body movement, the upright rows, laterals, and military press will hit the deltoids in the same way. I would consider the military press most productive because of how much weight you can use, but upright rows are great too.

suspect that your estimation of your knowledge far exceeds reality, based on your comments - the difference between a compound and isolation movement is beginner's stuff. I'll not bother reading any more of your mis-informed views or very predictable defensive reactions, which illustrate a low degree of understanding of the subject. Get to work and start readin' bro..

well shit, look at the big nuts on pumpchaser... hey can I have some of your advise as well man

It's almost humorous to deal with idiots. They talk game but lack ALL knowledge of the human body.

Funnier still is the way some people don't even understand the difference between isolation and compound movements and how the terms deal with joint activity. But then, I can only hope to teach. I can't hope every fool will gain knowledge.

An isolation exercise would be a single joint movement, if my understanding of it is right. A concentration curl would be an isolation bicep movement for example, while a palm up pulldown would be considered compound, because the bicep is contracting via downward pull of both the elbow and the shoulder.

Thank you for teaching the rest of us unlightened ones. How much do we owe you for your superior insights not to mention humility? We will be eternally indebted to you, genius..

Originally Posted by P-funk

if you are only going to parallel then you are pretty much just locking out your triceps.

I was always under the assumption that going past parallel is bad.....in MnF (don't laugh) every example of this movement stops at parallel

Originally Posted by PeterGunz

I was always under the assumption that going past parallel is bad.....in MnF (don't laugh) every example of this movement stops at parallel

Full ROM all the time buddy. if you are just going down to parallel and then back up (humerus moving from 90 degrees to 180 degrees rather than 0 degress, or as close as you can get, to 180 degrees) then how much movement at the should is occuring? realy you are just locking out the triceps.


About lateral raises and overhead presses. I see were SF is going with that. The movements are not all that different (aside from the fact that one os compund and the other is isoloation) in that all that is occuring at the shoulder joint is abduction and external (or outward) rotation of the scapula. Unless you do your presses like I do with my elbows pointing a little more forward (at about a 45 degree angle off my head), more in the scapular plane (between sagital and frontal). Then the movement is closer to DB scaption. But he is correct in saying that the joint movements of these two exercises are the same.

To the original poster:
You can try to do your presses in the scapular plane like i do(see details above). They take some presure off of the shoulder as they allow the supraspinatus to move out of the way of possible impingment from the humerus. With a barbell, simply take a closer grip than you normally would to achieve this movement. The other thing you may want to do is stop doing things overhead for the next 3 or 4 weeks and work your scapula stabalizers (traps (especially trap 3), rhomboids, etc..). If these muscles aren't functioning properly then you may be experiencing problem in you shoulder as you are not achieveing good gleno-humeral rythm which leads to muscles that are crossing the shoulder (18 in all if memeroy serves me correctly) getting in the way of moving bones and causing impingment or tearing. I wuold perform horizontal retraction adn protraction and some horizontal rowing (cable rows etc). Try to really squeezze the shoulder blades back and hit those muscles. After a few weeks of this try doing some external rotation and then possibly some overhead work. As SF said in his first post a pain free ROM is key here.

-patrick

Originally Posted by P-funk

With a barbell, simply take a closer grip than you normally would to achieve this movement.

Do you find this decreases the weight you are capable of doing? I'm considering trying to do this, but it seems like it would place more stress on the triceps and take away from shoulder activation. I would like a method of the military press that doesn't cause pain in my sternum.

I was involved in a bit of a altercation and bruised several ribs in my lower cage. I found that during that time, I was able to elimninate all of the pressure/pain by sitting on one of the larger ab exercise balls and using DB's. I was not able to do as much weight obviously but it did allow me to keep the movement in the 8-10 range without pain.

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

Funnier still is the way some people don't even understand the difference between isolation and compound movements and how the terms deal with joint activity.

Would you mind expounding? I'd like to know more. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

But then, I can only hope to teach. I can't hope every fool will gain knowledge.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink; But you can sure as hell drown him."