bench pressing

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 06:22 PM

Muscles contract progressively from points of origin to point of insertion.

The reason you will lift more, for example on a flat db press is because you are taking advantage of the pectorals doing what they are designed to do; bring the arms across the front of the chest.

If you do an incline dumbell press, besides bringing the deltoids into play, you are not calling in to practice all of the pectoralis muscle fibers that you potentially could:

"Not all myofibrils exert force to the same magnitude throughout the length of a sarcolemma; only as a muscle loses its mechanical efficiency-due to the force deviating from a straight line-wherein it increases its girth at the point of full contraction will those myofibrils toward the center of the muscle belly be called upon to work."

If you do 80 pound flat dumbells press for 8 reps, you are exhausting, in accordance with the mechanical physics listed about, more muscle fibers than using 60 pound dumbells for 8 reps in the incline position. You aren't just exhausting some (as in using a lower weight with an incline press); you are exhausting maximally what you are capable of doing. Incline DB presses will, to an extent, improve your chest - and make you stronger - but it won't make your upper chest bigger, in my opinion. Regarding hypertrophy, muscles grow as a whole, not selectively.

MTN WARRIOR · 10-20-2004, 06:30 PM

Mind if I get in on this one again??

**CowPimp** · 10-20-2004, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gococksDJS

Maybe I misworded my original post. I am aware that the pectoralis major is one muscle, but it is possible to exert more stress on different areas of your pectoralis major, which is what those exercises that i listed do. Read this caption concerning incline press from Dr. Richard Dryden, who used to be an anatomy professor at Guy's Hospital Medical School in London, England, and who is currently a Biology professor at the University of Plymouth.

"The muscles involved are similar to those outlined for the bench press, with the main difference being that the incline bench press is designed to put more stress specifically on the upper fibres of pectoralis major muscle. Pectoralis major is a fan-shaped muscle that has an extensive medial attachment to the ribs, sternum, and clavicle and then narrows down to its attachment to the humerus. Thus, the upper fibres are passing laterally and slightly downwards, the middle fibres are passing laterally, and the lower fibres are passing laterally and upwards. By the use of incline, decline, and standard bench press exercises it is possible to target specific parts of pectoralis major."
Incline press does involve your delts a great deal, but you do not need to rely on deltoid mass to make your upper chest look big, which is what I think you may have said to someone in an earlier post. Incline, and decline press can make the upper and lower fibres of your pectoralis major more dense, giving you an overall thicker chest.

Thank you! Although I disagree, at least you are presenting a case for yourself. This is what good debates are all about.

From what I understand, different movements constitute the usage of different motor units, and therefore different muscle fibers. However, this selection has nothing to do with physical proximity. The central nervous system "chooses" the fibers based on the intensity (The speed of the fibers) and the movement (Which fibers from the pool of fibers representing the proper speed).

Even if the fiber selection was based on physical location, it doesn't mean that you can induce hypertrophy in certain portions of a muscle. The muscle will still grow as a whole.

**P-funk** · 10-20-2004, 08:16 PM

Holy Crap D. I just noticed the quote in your signature!! that is awesome! I love Goethe....LOL, especially when it is preceeded by a moron!!

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 08:30 PM

rock4832

Quote:

Johhhhny, you should just let people who know what they are talkind about answer these training questions. Stop trying and messing newbies up with your idiocy! Thank you and have a nice day

Speak for yourself.

I'm only trying to help the newbie.

But since you're against incline presses you can go ahead & have a lesser developed chest than you could if you did inclines doesn't mean this newbie has to.

Incline presses whether it's incline bench, or DB flies are very, very important to do. There are a lot of ppl who just focus on incline presses along with some flat DB flies or dips & no flat bench.

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

Johnny, you're notorious for being a complete dumb ass, but to call what someone says pure rubbish is without a doubt the largest bit of irony I have ever seen in the course of my life.

I know this one guy who confirmed everything I've ever said and prooves incontrovertibly the point I'm trying to make right now. I'm going to use this guy to anecdotally support whatever I'm trying to say because I feel this qualifies as evidence, whereas related scientifice research is rubbish.

You are a complete fucking buffoon.

All I have to say to you is stop doing incline presses for 6 weeks & see how strong your incline presses are.

I thought you were intelligent, but maybe there's something affecting your brain function.

So I guess Gopro is an idiot & doesn't know what he's talking about either eh?

Gopro strongly believes to entirely develop your pectorals, you have to hit them from ALL angles & GRIPS to make it grow & become stronger.

I agree with him, so by calling me an idiot for believing that, than you're also calling him one as well.

Listen Alex, you have to hit your pecs from all angles & grips.

The upper portion of the chest is the hardest to develop & requires a lot of attention, incline bench or incline db presses, incline flies, flat bench & chest dips is a complete pectoral routine that will pack on size & strength.

Your entire chest will simply not grow by doing only flat bench presses. Even power lifters do incline presses & only a few sets of flat bench I see them at the gym several times a week & they have fully developed & strong/powerful pecs.

j

russianalex · 10-20-2004, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnnny

rock4832

Speak for yourself.

I'm only trying to help the newbie.

But since you're against incline presses you can go ahead & have a lesser developed chest than you could if you did inclines doesn't mean this newbie has to.

Incline presses whether it's incline bench, or DB flies are very, very important to do. There are a lot of ppl who just focus on incline presses along with some flat DB flies or dips & no flat bench.

Duncans Donuts

All I have to say to you is stop doing incline presses for 6 weeks & see how strong your incline presses are.

I thought you were intelligent, but maybe there's something affecting your brain function.

So I guess Gopro is an idiot & doesn't know what he's talking about either eh?

Gopro strongly believes to entirely develop your pectorals, you have to hit them from ALL angles & GRIPS to make it grow & become stronger.

I agree with him, so by calling me an idiot for believing that, than you're also calling him one as well.

Listen Alex, you have to hit your pecs from all angles & grips.

The upper portion of the chest is the hardest to develop & requires a lot of attention, incline bench or incline db presses, incline flies, flat bench & chest dips is a complete pectoral routine that will pack on size & strength.

Your entire chest will simply not grow by doing only flat bench presses. Even power lifters do incline presses & only a few sets of flat bench I see them at the gym several times a week & they have fully developed & strong/powerful pecs.

j

i really dont know who to listen to here

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnnny

Your entire chest will simply not grow by doing only flat bench presses. Even power lifters do incline presses & only a few sets of flat bench I see them at the gym several times a week & they have fully developed & strong/powerful pecs.

P, here's another one that applies quite well:

"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
- Goethe

Hey, Johnny, as far as your "Flat bench won't make your chest grow" comment, I measured my chest today at slightly beyond 50 inches. Just about 30 minutes ago I close grip benchpressed 285 pounds for 7 reps (with 2 additional rest pause sets with no break) - I have not done any other bench press exercise for over 2 months, except for that for my chest, performed once a week.

I may not be in the same league as the favorite steroid junkie "pro bodybuilders" you tout, nor any of the other SELECTED NON SPECIFIC ANECDOTES YOU BLATHER ABOUT, but I can gurantee that your quote above reeks of ignorance.

BTW, I respect Gopro. Don't try and drag him into this conversation, you fucking spineless piece of vaginal shit. This don't concern him.

10-20-2004, 09:15 PM

One reason is that you're doing your back & biceps on the same day which is a huge no, no.

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 09:19 PM

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

Hey, Johnny, as far as your "Flat bench won't make your chest grow" comment, I measured my chest today at slightly beyond 50 inches.

I bet I can figure out how you got that measurement.

Jonnnny

Quote:

One reason is that you're doing your back & biceps on the same day which is a huge no, no.

Bravo, do you think I anyone wouldn't notice that you registered with 4 n's while my name only has 3?

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 09:20 PM

Oh, on another point, Gopro never accused me of taking steroids when I said repeatedly I was only considering to take them, he never said that doing "just flat" won't make your chest grow, never claimed that CP was spouting "rubbish", and most importantly:

Nobody except you has ever blamed their HYPOTHYRODISM ON EPHEDRA.

EDIT:

Please, PLEASE tell me how I got that measurement? I'm ever so curious.

10-20-2004, 09:21 PM

Bravo, do you think I anyone wouldn't notice that you registered with 3 n's while my name only has 4?

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 09:32 PM

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

Oh, on another point, Gopro never accused me of taking steroids

I never said that Gopro accused you of taking steroids.

I said that Gopro felt it was important to hit the pecs from all angles in another thread.

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 09:36 PM

You are something J.

When you drew GoPro into this conversation, I simply pointed out the fact that you have a track record of doing the exact opposite of what a man of integrity does. The steroid accusation was one of many reasons I don't respect anything that you say.

BTW, how did I get that chest measurement, to be curious?

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 09:53 PM

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

You are something J.

When you drew GoPro into this conversation, I simply pointed out the fact that you have a track record of doing the exact opposite of what a man of integrity does. The steroid accusation was one of many reasons I don't respect anything that you say.

BTW, how did I get that chest measurement, to be curious?

Again I don't care what you think.

Mudge is totally honest and cool with his steroid use & I've had many conversations with him about it.

I don't think any less of him b/c he's using. I wouldn't hide it either if I was using.

But I do listen to Gopro regarding many issues & topics.

As for the chest measurement, I can think of a couple of ways.

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 09:56 PM

So share them with us! Just come out and call me a liar, it won't be the first time.

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 10:05 PM

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

So share them with us! Just come out and call me a liar, it won't be the first time.

Nah, I think I'll let ppl think about it themselves.

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 10:13 PM

Yeah, we wouldn't want anyone to trust your credibility, after all.

myCATpowerlifts · 10-20-2004, 10:28 PM

Duncan and Johnny quit arguing....there's no point in arguing....diff. people, diff opinions....no one's exactly wrong or right, just shut up

You sound like a couple of elementary kids cussing back and forth on an Instant messenger program or something

myCATpowerlifts · 10-20-2004, 10:28 PM

and btw duncan, he meant that you have huge bitch tits

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 10:32 PM

Thanks Mycat. And I'm not gonna let up on Johnny, cuz people have to be accountable.

10-20-2004, 10:38 PM

I think Johnnny is trying to do some good here, we may not agree with everything said here but at least he has good intentions.

Don't give up Johnny, we Jonnny's must now unite!

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 10:39 PM

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

Thanks Mycat. And I'm not gonna let up on Johnny, cuz people have to be accountable.

It is clear to me that you have nothing better to do with your time.

myCatPowerlifts

Quote:

Duncan and Johnny quit arguing....there's no point in arguing....diff. people, diff opinions....no one's exactly wrong or right, just shut up

You sound like a couple of elementary kids cussing back and forth on an Instant messenger program or something

I agree with that, but it is important to hit your pecs from all angles & grips btw.

Duncans Donuts · 10-20-2004, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnnny

It is clear to me that you have nothing better to do with your time.

What have you been doing with your time?

I'm squashing this, you can believe what you want. Incline presses OFFER benefit, but not more so for your pecs (upper or otherwise) than flat benchpresses.

Johnnny · 10-20-2004, 11:03 PM

Duncans Donuts

Quote:

What have you been doing with your time?

I'm squashing this, you can believe what you want. Incline presses
OFFER benefit, but not more so for your pecs (upper or otherwise) than
flat benchpresses.

What have I been doing with my time?

Let's see, work full time, shcool 4 days a week, spending time with my girlfriend, training, & hanging out with friends & relatives, & reading my bible when I can

But you can squash what you want.

You can't expect to incline bench press 265 or more lbs if you don't do the movement.

If you simply do flat bench your upper chest area will be weak as hell.

If you've never done incline presses of any kind & focused & solely do flat presses, it doesn't matter if you're flat benching 405, you won't be able to do 315lbs right away. You have to build up first

I've been to enough gyms & seen enough ppl train to have seen this many times whether you believe what I say or not.

Duncans Donuts · 10-21-2004, 01:51 AM

Johnny, you asked what I was doing with my time in reference to why I was posting so much on the board. I pointed out that you were spending your time doing the same thing - posting.

No exercise transfers perfectly from one to the other, not because of muscles involved necessarily, but because of neurological adaptations to the exercise itself. There are a number of studies that refer to this CNS adaptation specifically.

I don't care what you believe, but to say your upper chest won't grow from doing flat benches is flat wrong. All the exercises you list though do have potential benefit.

Uzi9 · 10-21-2004, 02:52 AM

I think this Johnnny isn`t worth the bother, its a shame he seems to preach just what "he" thinks as gospel and downgrades everybodies opinions with his own facts that he thinks up in his head (not researched with scientific knowledge).

Although it wont be people like us that suffer (i.e. the trainers that have enough experience in the gym and read enough text on anatomy to realise our own opinions with enough degree of knowledge to hold valid argument) but the newbie`s who he litters with his own thought up ideas.

But the worst thing is his insults to people who dont share his same opinion, and that is why I am typing this post.

10-20-2004, 06:22 PM	#31
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Muscles contract progressively from points of origin to point of insertion. The reason you will lift more, for example on a flat db press is because you are taking advantage of the pectorals doing what they are designed to do; bring the arms across the front of the chest. If you do an incline dumbell press, besides bringing the deltoids into play, you are not calling in to practice all of the pectoralis muscle fibers that you potentially could: "Not all myofibrils exert force to the same magnitude throughout the length of a sarcolemma; only as a muscle loses its mechanical efficiency-due to the force deviating from a straight line-wherein it increases its girth at the point of full contraction will those myofibrils toward the center of the muscle belly be called upon to work." If you do 80 pound flat dumbells press for 8 reps, you are exhausting, in accordance with the mechanical physics listed about, more muscle fibers than using 60 pound dumbells for 8 reps in the incline position. You aren't just exhausting some (as in using a lower weight with an incline press); you are exhausting maximally what you are capable of doing. Incline DB presses will, to an extent, improve your chest - and make you stronger - but it won't make your upper chest bigger, in my opinion. Regarding hypertrophy, muscles grow as a whole, not selectively.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-20-2004, 06:30 PM	#32
MTN WARRIOR HOOAH!!! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: HOOAHVILLE Posts: 604	Mind if I get in on this one again??
	THAT WHICH DOES NOT KILL ME, CERTAINLY MUST MAKE ME STRONGER

10-20-2004, 08:16 PM	#34
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,631	Holy Crap D. I just noticed the quote in your signature!! that is awesome! I love Goethe....LOL, especially when it is preceeded by a moron!!
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

10-20-2004, 09:15 PM	#38
Jonnnny Guest Posts: n/a	One reason is that you're doing your back & biceps on the same day which is a huge no, no.
Jonnnny Guest Posts: n/a

10-20-2004, 09:20 PM	#40
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Oh, on another point, Gopro never accused me of taking steroids when I said repeatedly I was only considering to take them, he never said that doing "just flat" won't make your chest grow, never claimed that CP was spouting "rubbish", and most importantly: Nobody except you has ever blamed their HYPOTHYRODISM ON EPHEDRA. EDIT: Please, PLEASE tell me how I got that measurement? I'm ever so curious.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-20-2004, 09:21 PM	#41
Jonnnny Guest Posts: n/a	Bravo, do you think I anyone wouldn't notice that you registered with 3 n's while my name only has 4?
Jonnnny Guest Posts: n/a

10-20-2004, 09:36 PM	#43
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	You are something J. When you drew GoPro into this conversation, I simply pointed out the fact that you have a track record of doing the exact opposite of what a man of integrity does. The steroid accusation was one of many reasons I don't respect anything that you say. BTW, how did I get that chest measurement, to be curious?
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-20-2004, 09:56 PM	#45
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	So share them with us! Just come out and call me a liar, it won't be the first time.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-20-2004, 10:13 PM	#47
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Yeah, we wouldn't want anyone to trust your credibility, after all.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-20-2004, 10:28 PM	#48
myCATpowerlifts Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The lone star state Posts: 6,261 Photos: 2	Duncan and Johnny quit arguing....there's no point in arguing....diff. people, diff opinions....no one's exactly wrong or right, just shut up You sound like a couple of elementary kids cussing back and forth on an Instant messenger program or something

10-20-2004, 10:32 PM	#50
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Thanks Mycat. And I'm not gonna let up on Johnny, cuz people have to be accountable.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-20-2004, 10:38 PM	#51
Jonnnny Guest Posts: n/a	I think Johnnny is trying to do some good here, we may not agree with everything said here but at least he has good intentions. Don't give up Johnny, we Jonnny's must now unite!
Jonnnny Guest Posts: n/a

10-21-2004, 01:51 AM	#55
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Johnny, you asked what I was doing with my time in reference to why I was posting so much on the board. I pointed out that you were spending your time doing the same thing - posting. No exercise transfers perfectly from one to the other, not because of muscles involved necessarily, but because of neurological adaptations to the exercise itself. There are a number of studies that refer to this CNS adaptation specifically. I don't care what you believe, but to say your upper chest won't grow from doing flat benches is flat wrong. All the exercises you list though do have potential benefit.
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-21-2004, 02:52 AM	#56
Uzi9 Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: England Posts: 394	I think this Johnnny isn`t worth the bother, its a shame he seems to preach just what "he" thinks as gospel and downgrades everybodies opinions with his own facts that he thinks up in his head (not researched with scientific knowledge). Although it wont be people like us that suffer (i.e. the trainers that have enough experience in the gym and read enough text on anatomy to realise our own opinions with enough degree of knowledge to hold valid argument) but the newbie`s who he litters with his own thought up ideas. But the worst thing is his insults to people who dont share his same opinion, and that is why I am typing this post.