Hard Gainers - 45mins in Gym... too short?

marty 600 · 10-26-2004, 04:53 AM

Hiya Guys,

Reading up on best ways for HARD GAINERS to train (Ie. me...)
Says "45 mins intense work out, including warmup..."

that can't be right surely?!?!?!

A good all over stretching session/warm up would take at least 15 minutes... then you get warm down.....

By warm ups, are we talking just:
5 mins on a bike
Then a couple of sets with ZERO on the bars?.....
I can see muscle strains from doing just this.... if you then hit the weights....

Please advise

Cheers
Martin

wtfzor · 10-26-2004, 05:00 AM

o5-10 mins on the bike or treadmill, just to get your blood flowing, followed by some dynamic stretch(shoulder ratation, wrist rotation, trunk rotation, cuban rotation, leg raises, squat etc etc) and light static stretch. you should do about 1-2 warm up sets for each bodypart, never fatigue your muscle during warm up.

45 mins is actually optimal, anything between 30 mins and 1.5 hours is OK.

**CowPimp** · 10-26-2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfzor

45 mins is actually optimal, anything between 30 mins and 1.5 hours is OK.

There are a lot of variables that determine this. In general, ectomorphs should try to keep their sessions shorter as opposed to longer. Personally, I try to finish within 60-65 minutes, including warmups. I don't count my stretching at the end.

LAM · 10-26-2004, 02:22 PM

I have seen no data that proves that "hardgainers" or ectomorphs need to go high-volume to increase anabolism.

most "hardgainers" that I have seen are simply not eating sufficient calories to support growth. if you don't count caloies don't bitch about not gaining weight...

Saturday Fever · 10-26-2004, 02:28 PM

I agree with LAM. There is no such thing as a hard-gainer, just an excuse-maker.

Tha Don · 10-26-2004, 02:40 PM

i'm an ectomorph and would probably fall into the hardgainer catagory, i can't put on muscle at all, i have to try very hard to force it own through excess calorie intake

i find that 45mins is not long enough, i'm not sure how these 45min workout guys do it but i really struggle to make it under an hour

lets take chest for example...

0-5 mins: jogging/cv warm-up
5:10 mins: light stretching, heading up log book and possibly waiting to get on the bench
10-15 mins: 2 x warm up sets on the bench
15-22 mins: 3 x pre-heavy sets on the bench (moving the weight up to 60,75 then 90% of working set weight Max-OT style)
22-30 mins: 3-4 x heavy/working sets on the bench, possible use of drop sets
30-45 mins: 3-4 working sets on incline dumbell press
45-55 mins: 3-4 working sets of dumbell flys
55-60 mins: 3 sets of dips with 1 min rest inbetween
60-65 mins: stretch/cooldown

now that is only for the chest!!! usally i will have to do tris after which adds another 15-20 mins and/or abs which adds a futher 10 mins

so it can range from 1:15-1:40 mins! there is no way i can cut that down (i've already cut out warm up sets on all exercises after my first exercise for a muscle group)

only way i can cut it down is to cut volume (exercises or sets) down, which i don't think will benefit me apart from perhaps once in a while when i'm extremely run down, or decrease rest time, but if i do that i will have to drop the weights down too, and that is deffiantly not a good idea!

variety is the key i guess, sometimes i will drop the weights a little and try and have a quicker more intense workout, other times i will cut down on sets here n' there if i'm real tired, other times i will add extra sets or an extra exercise if i'm feeling great

but i can't imagine doing every workout in under 45mins and keeping my strength where it is for very long

Saturday Fever · 10-26-2004, 02:49 PM

I workout for about 40 minutes everyday and I can lift plenty.

If that is really your chest routine, you shouldn't consider yourself a hardgainer. You should consider reconsidering how you approach the gym.

Tha Don · 10-26-2004, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

I agree with LAM. There is no such thing as a hard-gainer, just an excuse-maker.

indeed

but there are certainly people who put on muscle a LOT easier than others

but i tend to look on the +ve side... as hard-gainer = easy-trimmer - i managed to drop 7%BF over the last 6 weeks and lost no LBM! obviously i was extremely dedicated and have both worked and eaten my arse off to get results like this, but i reckon if i were endomorph it would be a different story (mind you if i were endomorph i'd probably be twice as big as i am now after a whole year of bulking)

what i'm tryina say is all body compositions have their strengths even in BB

Saturday Fever · 10-26-2004, 02:54 PM

I'll agree with that. I am a "hard-gainer." If I don't eat thousands upon thousands of calories a day, I don't gain. But that's pretty much how it works for everyone. My advantage is that I never get fat. An "easy-trimmer" if you will.

**Mudge** · 10-26-2004, 02:55 PM

If you are a hard gainer (like 99% of the people in the world) then you would not want to spend extra time in the gym at all. Get in, do your stuff, and get out. Observe your rest periods, dont chat in the gym, and dont try to do 50 sets in a day.

Some people are more hard-gainerish than others of course. I found an old ID card of mine pinning me at 180 pounds in my early 20s, I am 6'2".

Tha Don · 10-26-2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturday Fever

I workout for about 40 minutes everyday and I can lift plenty.

If that is really your chest routine, you shouldn't consider yourself a hardgainer. You should consider reconsidering how you approach the gym.

i do what works for me you do what works for you...

you enjoy lifting 40mins everyday, i enjoy lifting 1:20mins every other day, whos at the greatest risk of overtraining?

i've been lifting for years i know what i'm doin at the gym bro, don't come at me with that shit

Tha Don · 10-26-2004, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

If you are a hard gainer (like 99% of the people in the world) then you would not want to spend extra time in the gym at all. Get in, do your stuff, and get out. Observe your rest periods, dont chat in the gym, and dont try to do 50 sets in a day.

Some people are more hard-gainerish than others of course. I found an old ID card of mine pinning me at 180 pounds in my early 20s, I am 6'2".

true, but there is a comprimise between weight and rest periods

you can't lift big weight and have 30 second rests, you need to rest longer if you are goin heavy, i'm doing 2 x 4 and 2 x 3 (exercises x sets for my major bodyparts - chest/back.. legs is slightly different), that is 14 sets, i don't think that is overdoing it, 20 sets (4 x 5) is pretty heavy but even that will work for some people, as long as they get madd rest and nutrition

but i totally agree with the message your giving... don't slack around in the gym chatting and shit, go to work and get on with your lifting, that is exactly what i do but it still takes me time to get through my workout, might eventually give the stopwatch thing a go and see if that helps

peace

Duncans Donuts · 10-26-2004, 03:07 PM

**Mudge** · 10-26-2004, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

i've been lifting for years i know what i'm doin at the gym bro, don't come at me with that shit

Lets be fair here, look at his numbers, they speak for him plenty. Larry Scott also warned about training over 45 minutes, and I guess he is a nobody?

Quote:

true, but there is a comprimise between weight and rest periods

I hope everybody not completely new already knows this, I sometimes take 4-5 minute rest periods because I typically lift heavy. This is also why my volume is often low, so I'm still not in the gym for more than an hour, unless its one of those leg days where I take long rests on all the heavy work sets (not leg extentions/curls and adbuctor/adductor work).

**Prince** · 10-26-2004, 03:15 PM

Everyone gains size and strength at varying degrees, we refer to this as one's "genetics", whether it be the myostatin gene, muscle fiber make-up, a combo of both, etc., and I do believe some gain size/strength rapidly and others do not, as well as the majority of us that fall somewhere in between (ya know like a nice little bell curve). So, a "hard gainer" is the minority that happen to fall on the side that makes size/strength gains difficult, and these people do exist.

**Mudge** · 10-26-2004, 03:18 PM

It depends how we define hard gainer, of course, which I think is what you were getting at in some sort of sense. Some people are extremely hard gainers.

We all have to find what works for us, which is another reason things take so long - but some guidance is often prudent.

Squaggleboggin · 10-26-2004, 03:22 PM

I lift about 40 - 45 minutes each session (three days a week) and I've made some decent gains. I've only been at it for about a month, and already I've added 20 pounds to my DB presses, 20 to DB curls and plenty to squats, deadlifts and flies, too.

**Prince** · 10-26-2004, 03:25 PM

that is great, however a newbie is going to make great gains the first few months of training almost regardless of what they do.

Tha Don · 10-26-2004, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Lets be fair here, look at his numbers, they speak for him plenty. Larry Scott also warned about training over 45 minutes, and I guess he is a nobody?

SO BECAUSE HES A POWERLIFTER AND TRAINS TOTALLY DIFFERENT TO ME, HE KNOWS HOW LONG MY WORKOUTS SHOULD BE? LOL GOOD ONE!! I RESPECT HIM AND HIS 1RM'S BUT I'M NOT AFTER THAT, I'M AFTER SEPERATION NOT JUST PURE STRENGTH

I hope everybody not completely new already knows this, I sometimes take 4-5 minute rest periods because I typically lift heavy. This is also why my volume is often low, so I'm still not in the gym for more than an hour, unless its one of those leg days where I take long rests on all the heavy work sets (not leg extentions/curls and adbuctor/adductor work).
GOOD FOR YOU

Squaggleboggin · 10-26-2004, 03:41 PM

That's true, but that doesn't mean that a more experienced lifter couldn't benefit from the same amount of workout time. Saturday Fever said he works out forty minutes every day, and look at his lifting specs:
Weight: 207
Squat: 555 (gym)
Bench: 450 (gym)
Dead: 620 (gym)

Beginner? I think not...

Duncans Donuts · 10-26-2004, 03:48 PM

More does not equal better results...

**Mudge** · 10-26-2004, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

SO BECAUSE HES A POWERLIFTER AND TRAINS TOTALLY DIFFERENT TO ME, HE KNOWS HOW LONG MY WORKOUTS SHOULD BE? LOL GOOD ONE!! I RESPECT HIM AND HIS 1RM'S BUT I'M NOT AFTER THAT, I'M AFTER SEPERATION NOT JUST PURE STRENGTH

So fix up your diet, and I already mentioned Larry Scott who was plenty "seperated." Its a hormonal issue, and there is science behind it - not opinionated bull.

Of course if you can't get the job done without spending all day in the gym, I hear Gary Kasparov has retired.

**CowPimp** · 10-26-2004, 11:25 PM

Young D, I used to be like you. When I first started lifting again, my sessions were 90 minutes easy, and I didn't really stretch or warmup properly. I have slowly weened my way down to about 60-65 minutes, which includes 15-20 minutes of warmups and stretching.

Guess what? I have gained more muscle mass using this approach. Also, I just recently started a powerlifting routine. Prior to that, bodybuilding was my goal.

marty 600 · 10-27-2004, 05:04 AM

Hiya Guys,

Woah... thanks for the input!

Heres my penny's worth tho...
Last night - I hit the bench press....

RE:Mag:
Only one hit per week per body part

warm up (15mins)
Do 5 warm ups.... pyramid stacking of weights
4 sets at max weights.
(bit of a pause between sets, but not huge amounts)

Timed myself - 60mins easy! without doing any other exercises!

I'd prefer to hit one body part a session properly, rather than rush through sets, to get onto the next exercise.

Is this just a "starting up" phase I'm going through, or will it always take me this long per exercise?

Am I "Overexcerise" that one body part by doing this? (Even though it is once per week?)

Hope you can advise! 8)

Martin

Schez · 10-27-2004, 02:37 PM

I've been following this program: http://www.metacel.com/MaxGrow8wk.pdf
and got amazing results for the last month - increased bench by 30lbs, squat by 50lbs and seen about 6lbs of muscle added too.

Duncans Donuts · 10-27-2004, 02:48 PM

Umm - quote:

"Here's why training your Arms three times more often than your legs is not only desirable but will skyrocket your whole body to never before imagined growth."

. . .

Schez · 10-27-2004, 02:49 PM

S'working for me man!

10-26-2004, 04:53 AM	#1
marty 600 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 73	Hard Gainers - 45mins in Gym... too short? Hiya Guys, Reading up on best ways for HARD GAINERS to train (Ie. me...) Says "45 mins intense work out, including warmup..." that can't be right surely?!?!?! A good all over stretching session/warm up would take at least 15 minutes... then you get warm down..... By warm ups, are we talking just: 5 mins on a bike Then a couple of sets with ZERO on the bars?..... I can see muscle strains from doing just this.... if you then hit the weights.... Please advise Cheers Martin
marty 600 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 73

10-26-2004, 05:00 AM	#2
wtfzor Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 245 Photos: 1	o5-10 mins on the bike or treadmill, just to get your blood flowing, followed by some dynamic stretch(shoulder ratation, wrist rotation, trunk rotation, cuban rotation, leg raises, squat etc etc) and light static stretch. you should do about 1-2 warm up sets for each bodypart, never fatigue your muscle during warm up. 45 mins is actually optimal, anything between 30 mins and 1.5 hours is OK.
	Train beyond the pain...and death is your only release

10-26-2004, 02:22 PM	#4
LAM Gym ratt/Part-time pimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 7,384 Photos: 2	I have seen no data that proves that "hardgainers" or ectomorphs need to go high-volume to increase anabolism. most "hardgainers" that I have seen are simply not eating sufficient calories to support growth. if you don't count caloies don't bitch about not gaining weight...
	Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov TBD ----------------------------------------------------- What you talking about Willis ?

10-26-2004, 02:28 PM	#5
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	I agree with LAM. There is no such thing as a hard-gainer, just an excuse-maker.
	yay.

10-26-2004, 02:49 PM	#7
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	I workout for about 40 minutes everyday and I can lift plenty. If that is really your chest routine, you shouldn't consider yourself a hardgainer. You should consider reconsidering how you approach the gym.
	yay.

10-26-2004, 02:40 PM	#6
Tha Don Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nottingham, England Posts: 3,826 Photos: 33	i'm an ectomorph and would probably fall into the hardgainer catagory, i can't put on muscle at all, i have to try very hard to force it own through excess calorie intake i find that 45mins is not long enough, i'm not sure how these 45min workout guys do it but i really struggle to make it under an hour lets take chest for example... 0-5 mins: jogging/cv warm-up 5:10 mins: light stretching, heading up log book and possibly waiting to get on the bench 10-15 mins: 2 x warm up sets on the bench 15-22 mins: 3 x pre-heavy sets on the bench (moving the weight up to 60,75 then 90% of working set weight Max-OT style) 22-30 mins: 3-4 x heavy/working sets on the bench, possible use of drop sets 30-45 mins: 3-4 working sets on incline dumbell press 45-55 mins: 3-4 working sets of dumbell flys 55-60 mins: 3 sets of dips with 1 min rest inbetween 60-65 mins: stretch/cooldown now that is only for the chest!!! usally i will have to do tris after which adds another 15-20 mins and/or abs which adds a futher 10 mins so it can range from 1:15-1:40 mins! there is no way i can cut that down (i've already cut out warm up sets on all exercises after my first exercise for a muscle group) only way i can cut it down is to cut volume (exercises or sets) down, which i don't think will benefit me apart from perhaps once in a while when i'm extremely run down, or decrease rest time, but if i do that i will have to drop the weights down too, and that is deffiantly not a good idea! variety is the key i guess, sometimes i will drop the weights a little and try and have a quicker more intense workout, other times i will cut down on sets here n' there if i'm real tired, other times i will add extra sets or an extra exercise if i'm feeling great but i can't imagine doing every workout in under 45mins and keeping my strength where it is for very long

10-26-2004, 02:54 PM	#9
Saturday Fever Pimp Gimp Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: California Posts: 2,142 Photos: 4	I'll agree with that. I am a "hard-gainer." If I don't eat thousands upon thousands of calories a day, I don't gain. But that's pretty much how it works for everyone. My advantage is that I never get fat. An "easy-trimmer" if you will.
	yay.

10-26-2004, 02:55 PM	#10
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,072 Photos: 1	If you are a hard gainer (like 99% of the people in the world) then you would not want to spend extra time in the gym at all. Get in, do your stuff, and get out. Observe your rest periods, dont chat in the gym, and dont try to do 50 sets in a day. Some people are more hard-gainerish than others of course. I found an old ID card of mine pinning me at 180 pounds in my early 20s, I am 6'2".
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

10-26-2004, 03:07 PM	#13
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-26-2004, 03:15 PM	#15
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,989 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	Everyone gains size and strength at varying degrees, we refer to this as one's "genetics", whether it be the myostatin gene, muscle fiber make-up, a combo of both, etc., and I do believe some gain size/strength rapidly and others do not, as well as the majority of us that fall somewhere in between (ya know like a nice little bell curve). So, a "hard gainer" is the minority that happen to fall on the side that makes size/strength gains difficult, and these people do exist.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

10-26-2004, 03:18 PM	#16
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,072 Photos: 1	It depends how we define hard gainer, of course, which I think is what you were getting at in some sort of sense. Some people are extremely hard gainers. We all have to find what works for us, which is another reason things take so long - but some guidance is often prudent.

10-26-2004, 03:22 PM	#17
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	I lift about 40 - 45 minutes each session (three days a week) and I've made some decent gains. I've only been at it for about a month, and already I've added 20 pounds to my DB presses, 20 to DB curls and plenty to squats, deadlifts and flies, too.

10-26-2004, 03:25 PM	#18
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,989 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	that is great, however a newbie is going to make great gains the first few months of training almost regardless of what they do.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

10-26-2004, 03:41 PM	#20
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	That's true, but that doesn't mean that a more experienced lifter couldn't benefit from the same amount of workout time. Saturday Fever said he works out forty minutes every day, and look at his lifting specs: Weight: 207 Squat: 555 (gym) Bench: 450 (gym) Dead: 620 (gym) Beginner? I think not...

10-26-2004, 03:48 PM	#21
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	More does not equal better results...
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-26-2004, 11:25 PM	#23
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Young D, I used to be like you. When I first started lifting again, my sessions were 90 minutes easy, and I didn't really stretch or warmup properly. I have slowly weened my way down to about 60-65 minutes, which includes 15-20 minutes of warmups and stretching. Guess what? I have gained more muscle mass using this approach. Also, I just recently started a powerlifting routine. Prior to that, bodybuilding was my goal.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

10-27-2004, 05:04 AM	#24
marty 600 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 73	Hiya Guys, Woah... thanks for the input! Heres my penny's worth tho... Last night - I hit the bench press.... RE:Mag: Only one hit per week per body part warm up (15mins) Do 5 warm ups.... pyramid stacking of weights 4 sets at max weights. (bit of a pause between sets, but not huge amounts) Timed myself - 60mins easy! without doing any other exercises! I'd prefer to hit one body part a session properly, rather than rush through sets, to get onto the next exercise. Is this just a "starting up" phase I'm going through, or will it always take me this long per exercise? Am I "Overexcerise" that one body part by doing this? (Even though it is once per week?) Hope you can advise! 8) Martin
marty 600 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 73

10-27-2004, 02:37 PM	#25
Schez Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 46	I've been following this program: http://www.metacel.com/MaxGrow8wk.pdf and got amazing results for the last month - increased bench by 30lbs, squat by 50lbs and seen about 6lbs of muscle added too.
Schez Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 46

10-27-2004, 02:48 PM	#26
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Umm - quote: "Here's why training your Arms three times more often than your legs is not only desirable but will skyrocket your whole body to never before imagined growth." . . .
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

10-27-2004, 02:49 PM	#27
Schez Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 46	S'working for me man!
Schez Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 46