exercise for upper and inner chest..anyone?

**gopro** · 01-12-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I respect your opinion Gopro. I usually just suggest the person in question does some type of incline work anyway, because incline presses are still a great compound exercise.

Hey thats cool...and its true, even if you don't believe that inclines specifically "target" upper pecs, it is still a great exercise and good for variety if you are normally a flat bencher.

min0 lee · 01-12-2005, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richirich0417

I feel that my upper chest is somewhat lacking, and was wondering what is a good exercise to put on some mass in my upper chest. My current chest routine looks like this :flat dumbbell presses, incline DB presses, and flat bench flyes. what should i at or subsitute to help my upper chest? Also whats a good one for my inner chest? any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

I think the person to ask about this topic is Johnnny.

**Prince** · 01-12-2005, 11:16 PM

Quote:

The existence of the so-called "upper", "lower", "inner" and "outer" pectorals along with the assertion that it is possible to isolate one or more of these to the relative exclusion of the others in training, are among the most firmly entrenched myths in Strength Training and Bodybuilding circles. In fact none of these truly exist as either separate and distinct muscles or regions in a functional sense. Even though it could be argued that there appears to be a structural distinction between the upper and lower pectorals (and some anatomy texts do in fact support this distinction though not all do) because the pectoralis-major does originate from both the sternum and the proximal or sternal half of the clavicle along it’s anterior surface (it also has connections to the cartilages of all the true ribs with the frequent exception of the first and seventh, and to the Aponeurosis of the external oblique muscle), this is considered to be a common (though extensive) origin in terms of the mechanical function of the muscle. Thus the pectoralis-major is in fact for all practical purposes one continuous muscle with a common origin and insertion, and functions as a single force-producing unit. The terms upper, lower, inner and outer are imprecise and relevant only in order to make a vague subjective distinction between relative portions of the same muscle for descriptive purposes. They are vague and imprecise terms because there is no clearly delineated or universally defined border between them.
Further it is not physically possible either in theory or practice to contract one region of a single muscle to the exclusion of another region or regions (as a Biomechanics Professor of mine once demonstrated to a bunch of us smart-ass know-it-all’s taking his course, using EMG analysis). When a muscle contracts it does so in a linear fashion by simultaneously reducing the length of its constituent fibers and thus its overall length from origin to insertion. Even where a single muscle is separated into multiple functional units that are clearly defined such as the triceps (which are referred to as “heads” by Anatomists and Biomechanists), because they share a common point of insertion in order for one head to shorten all must shorten. This only makes sense if you think about it because otherwise there would be “slack” in one when the other shortened, which as we know does not occur. Note that there are some special cases where one head of a muscle must actually lengthen when the other shortens (e.g. the posterior head of the deltoid in relation to the anterior head during the positive stroke of fly’s), the point however is that even in these special cases there is no “slack” because there is in fact contractile activity (whether concentric or eccentric) throughout the muscle.
That is not to say however, that all fibers in different areas, or heads are necessarily shortened to the same degree during a particular movement. Depending on the shape of the muscle, the joint geometry involved, and the specific movement being performed, fibers in one area of a muscle or head may be required to shorten more or less than in others (or even to lengthen) in order to complete the required movement. For example during a decline fly though muscle fibers in all regions of the pectoralis-major must shorten as the upper arm is drawn towards the median plane of the body, because of the angle of the arm in relation to the trunk the fibers in what we commonly refer to as the lower pecs will have shortened by a greater percentage of their overall length than those in the upper region of the muscle by the completion of the movement. Conversely when performing an incline fly there is greater shortening in the fibers towards the upper portion of the muscle than in the lower.
Many proponents of the so-called “isolation” approach to training claim that this proportionally greater shortening of the fibers equates to greater tension in the “target” region than in others, and therefore stimulates greater adaptation; but this is completely at odds with the cross-bridge model of muscle contraction which clearly shows that as fiber length decreases tension also declines due to increasing overlap and interference in the area of the cross-bridges. Some also contend that the fibers called upon to shorten to a greater degree tend to fatigue faster than others and that therefore there is greater overall fiber recruitment in the region where this occurs, and thus a greater stimulus to growth; but there is no evidence to suggest that a fiber fatigues faster in one position than in another in relation to other fibers in the same muscle. In fact it has been shown that Time Under Tension (TUT) is the determining factor in fatigue and not fiber length. In fact fiber recruitment tends to increase in a very uniform fashion throughout an entire muscle as fatigue sets in.
The ability to “isolate” a head, or region of a muscle to the exclusion of others by performing a particular movement, or by limiting movement to a particular plane and thus develop it to a greater degree, is a myth created by people who wish to appear more knowledgeable than they are, and has been perpetuated by trade magazines and parroted throughout gyms everywhere. It is pure non-sense and completely ignores the applicable elements of physiology, anatomy, and physics in particular. Quite simply the science does not support it, and in most cases is completely at odds with the idea.
Regardless of the science however, many people will remain firmly convinced that muscle isolation is a reality because they can “feel” different movements more in one region of a muscle than in others. This I do not dispute, nor does science. There is in fact differentiated neural feedback from motor units depending on the relative length of the component fibers, and this feedback tends to be (or is interpreted by the brain as) more intense when the fibers in question are either shortened (contracted) or lengthened (stretched) in the extreme. However this has to do with proprioception (the ability to sense the orientation and relative position of your body in space by interpreting neural feedback related to muscle fiber length and joint position) and not tension, fatigue, or level of fiber recruitment. Unfortunately it has been seized upon and offered up as “evidence” by those looking to support their ideas by any means available.
Muscle shape is a function of genetics and degree of overall development. As you develop a muscle towards its potential, it does change in appearance (generally for the better) but always within the parameters defined by its inherent shape. A person who tends to have proportionately more mass towards the upper, lower, inner or outer region of his or her pectoralis-major will always have that tendency, though it may be more or less apparent at various stages in their development, and in most cases appears less pronounced as overall development proceeds. That is not to say that training a muscle group from multiple angles is totally without value. In fact we know that even subtly different movements can elicit varying levels of fiber recruitment within a muscle in an overall sense (i.e. in terms of the percentage of total available fibers) due to differences in joint mechanics, and neural activation patterns, as well as varying involvement of synergistic and antagonistic muscle groups involved. So by all means experiment with different angles in your training, but don’t expect to be able to correct so-called “unbalanced” muscles this way, or to target specific areas of a particular muscle. Work to develop each of your muscles as completely as possible and shape will take care of itself. If you want to worry about “shaping” you should pay more attention to the balance between different muscle groups and work to bring up any weak groups you may have in relation to the rest of your physique.

wow, great little article!

nice job belial whoever the heck you are.

Cold Iron · 01-12-2005, 11:24 PM

Awesome article!!

Pretty much covers any arguement you could possibly have....

Cold Iron · 01-12-2005, 11:25 PM

Prince, where was that from?

**CowPimp** · 01-13-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnie's left nu

Prince, where was that from?

He posted it on Muscle Mag. However, I found it quoted by someone on WBB.

jram · 01-13-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richirich0417

I feel that my upper chest is somewhat lacking, and was wondering what is a good exercise to put on some mass in my upper chest. My current chest routine looks like this :flat dumbbell presses, incline DB presses, and flat bench flyes. what should i at or subsitute to help my upper chest? Also whats a good one for my inner chest? any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

I posted this link on other threads when the subject of isolating chest areas during a workout was brought up. You may want to check it out.

http://www.muscleblitz.com/chest_muscle.htm

Peace.

camarosuper6 · 01-17-2005, 05:45 AM

Quote:

That's absolutely correct...and anyone who says you can't "target" upper and lower pecs by varying incline angles is not all that knowledgeable afterall. Beaten to death or not...it doesn't take a scientist to feel what incline presses and flyes do, and what flat does.

DD, you often share good knowledge man...but that post was uncalled for...

It would take God himself to come down and tell people that you cannot isolate sections the pectorl. Let them continue to believe what they want. I got some swampland in Florida if your looking...

BTW... Duncan was just messing around. Quit bein so sensitive. It was funny shit.

**gopro** · 01-17-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

It would take God himself to come down and tell people that you cannot isolate sections the pectorl. Let them continue to believe what they want. I got some swampland in Florida if your looking...

BTW... Duncan was just messing around. Quit bein so sensitive. It was funny shit.

It would take that for me...although I'd still argue with him/her.

camarosuper6 · 01-17-2005, 04:28 PM

lol..... funny guy

camarosuper6 · 01-18-2005, 09:37 PM

Gotta luv the evidence though behind isolating "upper" pecs.... OH WAIT.. there is NONE

Flex · 01-18-2005, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Gotta luv the evidence though behind isolating "upper" pecs.... OH WAIT.. there is NONE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flex

If both heads of the pectoralis contract simultaneously, then how does this work...

Raise one arm like your saluting Hitler. Now move your arm across your face so your like trying to smell your armpit. Now flex your pec as hard as you can.
When i do this movement (which mimics inclines, closegrip inclines etc.), just my upper and inner portion of that pec contracts. The "bottom half" of the pec so to speak stays relatively unflexed.

Now put your arm hanging at your side. Squeeze your pec. the bottom half contracts, while the top half stays relatively unflexed.

What gives?

I firmly believe you can, just as i firmly believe you can work your outer/inner thigh as well as calf.

Alls i know is, if one part is lagging, and i switch my angle and/or grip, it works a different part of the muscle.

Perhaps i just have weird muscle insertions.

PreMier · 01-18-2005, 09:43 PM

Oh God..

Flex · 01-18-2005, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreMier

Oh God..

I know it's scary, i actually agree with jonyyy

camarosuper6 · 01-19-2005, 01:13 AM

That alone should make you reconsider

KarlW · 01-19-2005, 06:58 AM

Quote:

I firmly believe you can, just as i firmly believe you can work your outer/inner thigh as well as calf.

You CAN work you outer/inner thigh because they are separate muscles: Vastus medialis and Vastis Lateralis. As for the calf, there is the medial and lateral head of the Gastrocnemius muscle (which may explain what you feel) as well as the soleus muscle.

**gopro** · 01-19-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Gotta luv the evidence though behind isolating "upper" pecs.... OH WAIT.. there is NONE

Sure there is, but its evidence that you simply do not accept...which of course is meaningless to those that know they can "target" (not isolate) the upper pec region.

But, I really do not care anymore. I know what I know

camarosuper6 · 01-20-2005, 12:45 AM

Oh Go.........lets just not start this again. I'll agree to disagree, big fella.

**gopro** · 01-20-2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Oh Go.........lets just not start this again. I'll agree to disagree, big fella.

Not looking to start of this "debate" again, don't worry. I have no interest in trying to prove the whole "upper chest" thing to anyone, except those that I train.

Agree to disagree...perfection

BigDyl · 01-20-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flex

Raise one arm like your saluting Hitler.

Lets lay off from reading mein kampf dude..

01-17-2005, 04:28 PM	#40
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,350	lol..... funny guy
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-18-2005, 09:37 PM	#41
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,350	Gotta luv the evidence though behind isolating "upper" pecs.... OH WAIT.. there is NONE
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-18-2005, 09:43 PM	#43
PreMier happy sumo Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 21,262 Photos: 2	Oh God..
	P-side Inc. "the post-workout high is more profound than any drug-induced rush imaginable." -Dante B.

01-19-2005, 01:13 AM	#45
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,350	That alone should make you reconsider
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-20-2005, 12:45 AM	#48
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,350	Oh Go.........lets just not start this again. I'll agree to disagree, big fella.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

01-12-2005, 11:24 PM	#34
Cold Iron High $ociety Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: ONtario Posts: 1,615	Awesome article!! Pretty much covers any arguement you could possibly have....

01-12-2005, 11:25 PM	#35
Cold Iron High $ociety Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: ONtario Posts: 1,615	Prince, where was that from?

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