Thread: OH NO, not again... :(

Recurrent shoulder problems are usually problems with your scapular stabilizers or posture. Unless you tore something, in which case, go see your favorite ortho surgeon. Most bursitis/shoulder impingement syndromes are the "effect" not the cause. First for the treatment: My very best advice...go to the active release technique (ART) website and find a practitioner in your area (could be an MD, DC, PT) and have them check you out, particularly your subscapularis, its probably tight as hell. This is extremely common with shoulder problems, the subscap seems to take a lot of punishment when anything goes wrong in that area. As far as rehab/exercises, key word=PAINFREE. Once you develop bursitis, irritating it is about the dumbest thing you can do. Lots of ice and PAINFREE range of motion. Wall angels and push up plus exercises will strengthen the muscles that are probably causing this. If you need to know how to do these, let me know. And by "push up plus" I'm not referring to the weightlifting version involving a bench press, I'm referring to the rehab one involving just you and a floor.

Now, prevention: keep with the wall angels and push up plus exercises. In addition, try to do as many upper body exercises as you can without anything against your back. what I mean is, instead of bench exercises where you lie down and essentially block scapular movement with the bench, do things standing (cables are great for this) or seated as much as you can. Also check your neck posture, have someone look at you standing normally from the side. The hole in your ear should line up with the tip of your shoulder. also, the palms of your hands should be facing your sides, not behind you, and your shoulders should be in a neutral position, not rolled forward. If this stuff is off, you've got some work to do, but that's another post.

Doing these things will get rid of the majority of shoulder problems unless there's something really wrong. Most importantly, don't wait to see someone about this until its really bad, go now and get a professional diagnosis. Your pain started immediately after an intense lift, possibility you strained/sprained something and that's a different story. The stuff I gave you is if its the same thing you've had before. Good luck,

Kim

thanks kimber. can you expand a bit on the wall angels and push up plus exercises that you speak of?

I remember a few of the exercises i did during PT with the various "rubber-bands", using doorknobs, etc.... I'll continue with these.

I still have full range of motion..i'm just noticing discomfort with certain movements and moreso when i sleep on that side again.

Sure...

Wall angels: stand up against a flat piece of wall, walk your feet out a bit so you have a nice relaxed posture against the wall. You should have a nice curve in your low back away from the wall and your neck should be pulled back (make a double chin and imagine a piece of string tied to the crown of your head pulling upward). Raise your arms laterally to shoulder height and bend your elbows to 90 deg. You should look like someone's going to shoot you or your showin' off your biceps. Turn your hands out so your pinkies are against the wall. Slowly bring your elbows down to your waist keeping the same 90 degree bend in your elbows, keeping your pinkies on the wall. You should be squeezing the lower edges of your shoulder blades together. Don't arch your back, keep it very neutral. If you can't keep your finger on the wall without torquing your wrist or go any farther without arching your back, stop. Go back to the top and do it again. 1-2 sets of 10 per day. If its too much to do it standing, lie on the ground until you get the hang of it.

Push Up Plus: on the floor on all fours, knees under your hips, hands under your shoulders. Let your belly drop a bit so you have a natural curve in your low back and then tighten up your abs like someones going to punch you in the gut. Push up through your shoulders like you're trying to arch the top half (and only the top half) of your spine. Hold a few seconds, relax and repeat. 1-2 sets of 10. This one is harder to get the feel for because your whole back will probably want to arch, have someone lightly tap their fingers between your shoulder blades to help you focus on just that area. Your lower spine should move very little. Progress this one by using increasingly unstable surfaces...an airex pad, a physio-ball, anything a little more wobbly will do.

Does this make sense? Sometimes hard to explain without pictures! The elastic tubing stuff is good, especially to strengthen your internal and external rotators...its good to do these before you start lifting. Let me know if I can clarify any of this!

ChrisROCK,

hey, i've spent 10 minutes trying to read your post but i keep getting distracted with the wonder chick, you have going on there. eventually, i'll get all of it read but i don't know if everyone else as dedicated as me.

Thanks kimber. Are you a PT or Ortho? If so, what part of the country are you in?

Sorry BGA, should i remove my sig?

Rock,
About 2 years ago I had my shoulder fixed due to a torn labrum (many baseball pitchers get this). I originally injured it screwing around with my then girlfriend by falling hard on my elbows, the shock of the fall was the initial tear, lifting and playing softball only made it worse.

I may not have had the same problem but I had some of the same symptoms, not sleeping well, lifting was almost out of the question as any sort of benching motion was very painful.

I went through the PT route for a while and when that did not work I opted for surgery. It was a long and frustrating recovery but I am glad that I did it as my shoulder is at 100%. Good luck to you and your signature is outstanding!

Here is a link to the problem that I had. http://www.ecureme.com/emyhealth/dat...e_Shoulder.asp

Originally Posted by Kimber

Recurrent shoulder problems are usually problems with your scapular stabilizers or posture. Unless you tore something, in which case, go see your favorite ortho surgeon. Most bursitis/shoulder impingement syndromes are the "effect" not the cause. First for the treatment: My very best advice...go to the active release technique (ART) website and find a practitioner in your area (could be an MD, DC, PT) and have them check you out, particularly your subscapularis, its probably tight as hell. This is extremely common with shoulder problems, the subscap seems to take a lot of punishment when anything goes wrong in that area. As far as rehab/exercises, key word=PAINFREE. Once you develop bursitis, irritating it is about the dumbest thing you can do. Lots of ice and PAINFREE range of motion. Wall angels and push up plus exercises will strengthen the muscles that are probably causing this. If you need to know how to do these, let me know. And by "push up plus" I'm not referring to the weightlifting version involving a bench press, I'm referring to the rehab one involving just you and a floor.

Now, prevention: keep with the wall angels and push up plus exercises. In addition, try to do as many upper body exercises as you can without anything against your back. what I mean is, instead of bench exercises where you lie down and essentially block scapular movement with the bench, do things standing (cables are great for this) or seated as much as you can. Also check your neck posture, have someone look at you standing normally from the side. The hole in your ear should line up with the tip of your shoulder. also, the palms of your hands should be facing your sides, not behind you, and your shoulders should be in a neutral position, not rolled forward. If this stuff is off, you've got some work to do, but that's another post.

Doing these things will get rid of the majority of shoulder problems unless there's something really wrong. Most importantly, don't wait to see someone about this until its really bad, go now and get a professional diagnosis. Your pain started immediately after an intense lift, possibility you strained/sprained something and that's a different story. The stuff I gave you is if its the same thing you've had before. Good luck,

Kim

Very, very sound advice. This is prolly what they had you do in PT before. Now why would this happen again? My guess is you went back to the same faulty movement pattern which originally caused the problem which led to some form of weakness/tightness in the aforementioned area again.

I would suggest that after you rehab the area, as mentioned by kimber, you work on proper form with lighter weight.

Just out of curiosity, where are your elbows at the bottom of the movement when you bench? Are they against your sides or flared out perpendicular to your body? I have seen bursitis recur in peeps who bench with their arms out perpendicular to their body

thanks hillside...good info man. My last MRI didn't show a torn labrum thankfully. I guess another MRI might be in order to rule out anything as serious.

Dale - I actually rarely do bench press since my injury. I opt for dumbbell movements. Bench press has always put more strain on the shoulder, so I avoid it. That said, when/if I do it, I do know to keep my elbows in, as this reduces the impact to the anterior delts. Thanks.

When you say "faulty" movement pattern...do you think i'm doing something wrong? My ortho told me it was just from repetitive overhead, heavy movements...and like i said...i guess I just got greedy and over-confident thinking i was past that. It's been quite a while, and my progress has been great... I probably should eliminate any overhead pressing movements entirely...now i probably have no choice! ugh...

Do you guys think I should lay off shoulders and chest for a few weeks and just do rehab/resistence work for the shoulders? Kimber?

Originally Posted by ChrisROCK

When you say "faulty" movement pattern...do you think i'm doing something wrong?

Yes. If you have strengthened the stabilizers and antagonists accordingly, there should be no problem doing heavy overhead movements properly. If you do the exercise incorrectly, you may still get the weight up, but you may cause synergistic dominance, that is the smaller muscles take on more and more of the load, which is bad. You want most of the load to be on the bigger muscles such as the deltoid in an overhead press.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Yes. If you have strengthened the stabilizers and antagonists accordingly, there should be no problem doing heavy overhead movements properly. If you do the exercise incorrectly, you may still get the weight up, but you may cause synergistic dominance, that is the smaller muscles take on more and more of the load, which is bad. You want most of the load to be on the bigger muscles such as the deltoid in an overhead press.

dude i am too sad that u have been posting over thousands of stupid replys to mislead the newbies. I can find all ur suggestion in a cheap bodybuilding magazine. just stfu if u are a bit more considerate.

Originally Posted by rockgazersux

dude i am too sad that u have been posting over thousands of stupid replys to mislead the newbies. I can find all ur suggestion in a cheap bodybuilding magazine. just stfu if u are a bit more considerate.

Not sure what bone you have to pick with dale...but do you have anything constructive to offer, or just mindless, bull$hit babble?

Originally Posted by rockgazersux

dude i am too sad that u have been posting over thousands of stupid replys to mislead the newbies. I can find all ur suggestion in a cheap bodybuilding magazine. just stfu if u are a bit more considerate.

Nice english retard.

Stop trolling in this guys thread or I will delete your posts. If you want to heckle me start your own thread. I welcome the challenge in deciphering precisely what it is that you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Nice english retard.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Nice english retard.

Stop trolling in this guys thread or I will delete your posts. If you want to heckle me start your own thread. I welcome the challenge in deciphering precisely what it is that you are trying to say.

I was waiting for that. I haven't responded to any of his threads because I don't think he deserves a response. But you've got some firing power now being a Mod...

yeah, he's definitely just a troll looking to start trouble. Nothing constructive to offer...

Chris--I'm a DC, ATC, CSCS--can you tell I like lots of letters after my name? I absolutely agree with Dale. The "faulty movement pattern" thing doesn't make you a freak of nature ....if anything, its fairly common, especially in weightlifters who go heavy with a tendency to train the aesthetic muscles (upper traps, delts and pecs primarily) and create or reveal an imbalance because the smaller stabilizing muscles can't keep up. It may not even have anything to do with your form, but this is a good place to start. Lighten up the weight and have someone critique you. I don't see any reason to quit lifting altogether but cut the weight and start working the smaller muscles with the exercises I mentioned and the elastic tubing (i'll give you one for that in a sec). I would still suggest you talk to someone who does ART, they almost always have a better grasp on movement patterns than average. Talk to your doc as soon as you can to rule out anything serious and, of course, follow their instructions.

The elastic tubing exercise: for your rotator cuff--this should be light weight tubing. You can also use db (2,3,5 lb, yes I'm serious--its about the only thing those weights are good for)--to do this as well. Stand with the tube in your right hand, arm against your side and elbow bent to 90. The tubing is secured onto something on your left...it should be across your belly. Put a small pillow, nerf basketball, whatever you can find between your right elbow and your right side so you're creating about a 30 deg angle. Externally rotate your shoulder, leave your elbow where it is and pull your hand outward against the resistance. Go slow in and out 2-3 sets of 10. Same thing both sides. 2nd exercise--same thing but remove the pillow. 3rd exercise--turn around so your pulling the resistance toward you instead of away from you. Do these before you start your workout.

Oh yea, I live in the midwest but probably have a classmate or know someone in your area. Also, make sure you're warming up your shoulders before you start in addition to the exercises. Okay, I'm done rambling now. Make sense?

Thanks Kimber...I'm familiar with the tube exercises, in fact, I immediately started to do them again. Oddly enough, my ortho never explained the whole science behind the stabilizers, etc, to me. He's pretty well known around here, and in the orthodics world...AFAIK.

I actually did the wall angels exercises last night, and found them to make my shoulders feel better, almost immediately. Is that odd? Maybe it was all in my head, but it was as if the movement was stretching something or warming up the area, and i got some relief from it. I didn't want to over-do it, but i did 3 sets. of 10....because they felt good! Thoughts on that?

I do, zero overhead presses. Incline benches, 2 sets.

I may see what my overhead press is just for kicks, I dont feel my delt development has suffered at all. Shoulders do a SHYTLOAD of work rowing and pressing, with all of that combined training shoulders with high amounts of volume like some do to me is simple overstress.

I did 2 sets of side laterals most recently above my normal 1 set, and my shoulders were annihilated. I do 1 set of rotator work as well, 10 pounds.

Thoughts on that? Yea, Great! Wall angels are primarily for strengthening the muscles that pull the bottom of your scapula in toward each other and against your ribs where they're supposed to be. Typically with what your problems have been, its common that over developed (relative to the smaller muscles) upper traps can raise the scapula and pull it away from the ribs which puts a lot of pressure on the supraspinatus and bursa in that area by pinching them under the acromion (part of your scapula, the supraspin and bursa and long head of biceps tendon all pass under this area in a very small space...any problem with biomechanics typically shows itself there b/c theres such small room for error.). Wall angels will pull your shoulder blades back down and could certainly relieve some of the pressure in that area. Glad they're helping.

excellent, I will continue with them daily...although I think i may have been torquing my wrist a little though. What does that mean, and what do i do about it?

Thanks for all your help, it's been great!

Just try to keep your wrists as neutral as you can. It has nothing to do with the exercise except being a good way to check that you're doing them right. If you can't keep your pinky on the wall without really using your wrist to do it, you've gone far enough. Your range of motion should improve quickly so it won't be an issue.

ok cool... I'm going to an empty office now to do some... Hopefully nobody sees me...

What amount of volume are you doing in your routines, Chris

duncan, typically for shoulders i would do 3 to 4 sets of overhead presses, 3 sets of laterals (dumbbells or cables), then 3 sets of reverse pec deck or cables. So, I would say typically 9 to 11. Shrugs I usually do on my back day.

Too much?

If you are having issues with connective tissue, the first step I would take is significantly dropping the volume.

yeah, i'm gonna do that I guess, and cut out the overhead stuff for a while. I'll do my rehab exercises for a while to strengthen the stabilizers, and use low volume as well....

For the love of God ChrisROCK, I can get nothing from your posts! I can't get past the GIF.

Who is she?

Oh yeah, after a month or two, can you do a follow up to let us know how things went for you?

Originally Posted by cfs3

For the love of God ChrisROCK, I can get nothing from your posts! I can't get past the GIF.

Who is she?

Oh yeah, after a month or two, can you do a follow up to let us know how things went for you?

Sorry man...Maybe i should remove her? I wish I knew who she was....

I will definitely post a follow-up to this in early to mid-march. I'll try to keep a journal of sorts as to what I do....Although that'll be new for me.