Thread: Density Training...

Never heard of it.

impossible, genetics determine muscle density. although there are some theorys floating around that state that training at a young age will increase muscle density vs say starting to weight train at age 40

are you talking about increasing muscular or training density?

If its muscular density, then like LAM said its pretty much genetic.

Training density is just a different way to train, check out P-funk's journal and what he is doing with his decreasing RI's (essentially increasing his training density). The is also a journal TP kept on here many a moon ago when he tried a program called Elevating Density Training i believe do a search and check it out.

Sorry guys, I didn't know if this concept was common knowledge or not.

Here's the scoop:

Say your goal is to bench 350 lbs for 12 reps. You double the reps and divide the reps into sets of two. Then, from each workout to the next, you decrease the number of sets and increase the number of reps until you meat your goal while also decreasing the time in takes to do the exercise.

Week.......Sets.......Reps......Time in minutes
1.............12..........2..........12
2.............8............3..........8
3.............6............4..........6
4.............5............5..........5
5.............4............6..........4
6.............3............8..........3
7.............1............12.........n/a

The term 'density' has to do with number of sets and reps and not with the muscle.

Originally Posted by cfs3

Sorry guys, I didn't know if this concept was common knowledge or not.

Here's the scoop:

Say your goal is to bench 350 lbs for 12 reps. You double the reps and divide the reps into sets of two. Then, from each workout to the next, you decrease the number of sets and increase the number of reps until you meat your goal while also decreasing the time in takes to do the exercise.

Week.......Sets.......Reps......Time in minutes
1.............12..........2..........12
2.............8............3..........8
3.............6............4..........6
4.............5............5..........5
5.............4............6..........4
6.............3............8..........3
7.............1............12.........n/a

The term 'density' has to do with number of sets and reps and not with the muscle.

that looks good. you are increasing your work capacity each week.

why do you think it would be a waste of time?

I don't think it's a waste of time. I wanted some advice from the more experienced members (people I've come to trust). Just because it looks good to me is not enough. I'm still rather new to bodybuilding and feel better with a more seasoned opinion.

Originally Posted by cfs3

I don't think it's a waste of time. I wanted some advice from the more experienced members (people I've come to trust). Just because it looks good to me is not enough. I'm still rather new to bodybuilding and feel better with a more seasoned opinion.

i like it.

Cool, then I'll give it a shot and report on it 7 weeks.

Originally Posted by cfs3

Cool, then I'll give it a shot and report on it 7 weeks.

are you going to keep a journal?

the last split (this is the last week of it) in my journal was 4 weeks long using some density training were i was attepting to increase the amount of weight moved over a shorter perioid of time each week. In your example you altrered reps and sets and in mine I used rest interval as the variable being changed weekly.

Personally, I'd be very wary of making sure as you progress you don't change the TUT by locking out your elbows and pausing at different times in the exercise. For example, doing 15 reps of squats at a certain load at a certain cadence (eg. 2 down, 1 second at bottome, 2 up) and then freezing for 2-3 seconds at the top is not the same as doing the 5 second phase and taking little (1 second) or no rest. For a time, I would increase the load and adjust the rate at which I handled the load, thus my muscles weren't actually progressively being overloaded..

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Personally, I'd be very wary of making sure as you progress you don't change the TUT by locking out your elbows and pausing at different times in the exercise. For example, doing 15 reps of squats at a certain load at a certain cadence (eg. 2 down, 1 second at bottome, 2 up) and then freezing for 2-3 seconds at the top is not the same as doing the 5 second phase and taking little (1 second) or no rest. For a time, I would increase the load and adjust the rate at which I handled the load, thus my muscles weren't actually progressively being overloaded..

yes, that is an important part of the equation. the density training that i do is constent TUT reps. there is no rest pause. When I squat for reps under 10sec rest intervals those are straight reps and not 4 reps pause and breath and then 4 more.

Originally Posted by P-funk

are you going to keep a journal?

No. The weights that I lift at (especially for my bodyweight) are embarrassing. My ego couldn't take it.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Personally, I'd be very wary of making sure as you progress you don't change the TUT by locking out your elbows and pausing at different times in the exercise. For example, doing 15 reps of squats at a certain load at a certain cadence (eg. 2 down, 1 second at bottome, 2 up) and then freezing for 2-3 seconds at the top is not the same as doing the 5 second phase and taking little (1 second) or no rest. For a time, I would increase the load and adjust the rate at which I handled the load, thus my muscles weren't actually progressively being overloaded..

Thanks for the warning DD. So far I've kept a regular cadence and I'll make double sure to do it for the Density Training.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Personally, I'd be very wary of making sure as you progress you don't change the TUT by locking out your elbows and pausing at different times in the exercise. For example, doing 15 reps of squats at a certain load at a certain cadence (eg. 2 down, 1 second at bottome, 2 up) and then freezing for 2-3 seconds at the top is not the same as doing the 5 second phase and taking little (1 second) or no rest. For a time, I would increase the load and adjust the rate at which I handled the load, thus my muscles weren't actually progressively being overloaded..

Interesting. My weights and reps have been progressing from each training session. But sometimes i donot do the set with exactly the same timing. Especially when i have just upped the weights for that session. So i do a bit of rest pause, mostly for the last couple of sets or so.

So even tough i have been doing more weight that i couldnt previously do, it would be considered that my muscles are not actually progressively being overloaded? and i wouldnt benifit much/adequately?

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

Interesting. My weights and reps have been progressing from each training session. But sometimes i donot do the set with exactly the same timing. Especially when i have just upped the weights for that session. So i do a bit of rest pause, mostly for the last couple of sets or so.

So even tough i have been doing more weight that i couldnt previously do, it would be considered that my muscles are actually progressively being overloaded?

yes, they are. you are just doing rest pause sets. however those reps can't be counted as a true rep maximum. When looking at the program that program that cfs3 is about to attempt or the one that I just did. If you were to rest pause those reps then you wouldn't be anble to progress the weight properly in order to reach the goal of 325 for 12 reps. You would fail much sooner as that will not be a true 12RM (70% of 1RM).

Originally Posted by P-funk

yes, they are. you are just doing rest pause sets. however those reps can't be counted as a true rep maximum. When looking at the program that program that cfs3 is about to attempt or the one that I just did. If you were to rest pause those reps then you wouldn't be anble to progress the weight properly in order to reach the goal of 325 for 12 reps. You would fail much sooner as that will not be a true 12RM (70% of 1RM).

Ah .. i see.. Thanks P-Funk. For a min there i thought i was doing a wasted training/routine.

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

Ah .. i see.. Thanks P-Funk. For a min there i thought i was doing a wasted training/routine.

not wasted, just different. rest pause/breathing sets are great.

Exactly, but in terms of gauging progress, you have to have as many CONSTANTS as possible (invariable).

If you do deadlifts and superset it with a bench press, and the next week perform twice as many reps on the bench press without preceding it with a deadlift, you can't assume that over that time your chest increased it's potential force output based on the reps, load, TUT, TUL, etc.; perhaps it did, but the results won't conclusively imply or tell you that.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Exactly, but in terms of gauging progress, you have to have as many CONSTANTS as possible (invariable).

If you do deadlifts and superset it with a bench press, and the next week perform twice as many reps on the bench press without preceding it with a deadlift, you can't assume that your chest increased it's force output based on the reps, load, TUT, TUL, etc.; perhaps it did, but the results won't conclusively imply or tell you that.

yeah, that is why I also time my rest intervals. Anyone can do more reps if they rest longer.

Originally Posted by cfs3

Sorry guys, I didn't know if this concept was common knowledge or not.

Here's the scoop:

Say your goal is to bench 350 lbs for 12 reps. You double the reps and divide the reps into sets of two. Then, from each workout to the next, you decrease the number of sets and increase the number of reps until you meat your goal while also decreasing the time in takes to do the exercise.

Week.......Sets.......Reps......Time in minutes
1.............12..........2..........12
2.............8............3..........8
3.............6............4..........6
4.............5............5..........5
5.............4............6..........4
6.............3............8..........3
7.............1............12.........n/a

The term 'density' has to do with number of sets and reps and not with the muscle.

That exact program was in the new issue of FLEX. They call it Density Intensity. Say you can bench 225 for 8, would it be fair to say you could start this program with the goal of 235 for 10 and expect to hit it after 7 weeks? Is it that good of a technique to improve that quicky?

Anyone who wants to get big, listen to P-Funk. There are very few personal trainers (or even exercise physiologist, doctors, etc.) who have the understanding of relating the measurements of training (volume, frequency, time under tension, etc.) to progress. From my best observations, these enormously important MEASUREMENTS (which they all are) are forsaken for the benefit of adding weight; wherein the body, logically, adapts to this by adjusting leverage, time under tension, grip spacing (and so forth) to make the exercise EASIER (some of the CNS adaptations are completely free of consiousness, so there's nothing you can do to eliminate them - while leverage is completely under your control), despite the use of progressive overload as far as the load is concerned. The goal should be to make the exercise harder.

I just realized this a few months ago and have been using a stop watch to keep track of time between exercises, non changing leverage or grip variables, not locking out my arms, and so forth. I am training about 6 people currently, several extremely advanced, that have made far too much out of adding weights and reps while not considering overload specifically as actual TIME, whether between sets, exercises, or distingushing between the time under load and the time under tension...

Needless to say, paticularly as one reaches closer to their genetic peak, these things are of primary importance..

Originally Posted by P-funk

yeah, that is why I also time my rest intervals. Anyone can do more reps if they rest longer.

I'v always used the stop watch feature on my wrist watch to time my rest intervals between sets/exercises. Though, depending on how i feel i sometimes take a bit longer than i should.

Is there a recommendation for diff body parts. e.g. legs vs bi's.

Originally Posted by JoeR.

That exact program was in the new issue of FLEX. They call it Density Intensity. Say you can bench 225 for 8, would it be fair to say you could start this program with the goal of 235 for 10 and expect to hit it after 7 weeks? Is it that good of a technique to improve that quicky?

That's what I'm going to find out.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Anyone who wants to get big, listen to P-Funk. There are very few personal trainers (or even exercise physiologist, doctors, etc.) who have the understanding of relating the measurements of training (volume, frequency, time under tension, etc.) to progress. From my best observations, these enormously important MEASUREMENTS (which they all are) are forsaken for the benefit of adding weight; wherein the body, logically, adapts to this by adjusting leverage, time under tension, grip spacing (and so forth) to make the exercise EASIER (some of the CNS adaptations are completely free of consiousness, so there's nothing you can do to eliminate them - while leverage is completely under your control), despite the use of progressive overload as far as the load is concerned. The goal should be to make the exercise harder.

I just realized this a few months ago and have been using a stop watch to keep track of time between exercises, non changing leverage or grip variables, not locking out my arms, and so forth. I am training about 6 people currently, several extremely advanced, that have made far too much out of adding weights and reps while not considering overload specifically as actual TIME, whether between sets, exercises, or distingushing between the time under load and the time under tension...

Needless to say, paticularly as one reaches closer to their genetic peak, these things are of primary importance..

I agree, after training how many people and even training myself I have never see more improvements in my body, strenght and overal condtion then I have from tracking my Rest interval. It is the missing element in most peoples trainig but probably one of the most important in terms of progression.

s there a recommendation for diff body parts. e.g. legs vs bi's.

I don't really have a basic recomendation. If you look in my journal you will see that I train under a variety of different loading parameters and RIs, anything from 10sec to 120sec. and the variables are constantly changing. If you have never squated at 30sec rest go for it. And if you have never squated at 10sec rest be in for a surprise. You need to try things out for yourself. Progress through different rest intervals. the stuff i am doing now with the revolving rest intervals is tough. what i first started out doing was just increasing my resistance through my rest interval. So, lets say I squat 315/4x4 (reps x sets) with 120sec. The next week I would attempt the same thing at 90sec and then down to 60sec rest the following week. That is what I first started doing. You would be surprised what a difference 30sec is, especailly for the last 2 sets. that is a good place to start. from there to what I am doing now where i have a set group of exercises, a set loading parameter (5-8 x 5 sets) and a set starting weight (which can be decreased if need be to stay within the rep scheme). I then started at 30sec rest and each week shaved off 5sec. until I got down to 10sec rest. What is supposed to happen and, surprise surprise, what did happen was that I was to be movning the same amount of weight that i started with at week one except in a shorter period of time (better work capacity.....increased the workout density). Some weeks like say from week 1-2 I may have had a strength drop off and not done better but, come week three I blasted my week 2 reps and all on shorter rest interval. It is a hard way to train but defenitly effective IMO.

It's funny that you should mention squats in your rest period example. I just did my first dropset (12 x 4 @ - 20lbs per set, 0 second rest) and I thought I was going to die. I've never felt anything like it. I've just started to incorporate dropsets into my workouts.

Adjusting the variables (exercises, etc.) at interval points, vis. every 3 weeks (or 2 weeks or 4 weeks) is very important in terms of getting around mental blocks and issues with the CNS.

Originally Posted by P-funk

You would be surprised what a difference 30sec is, especailly for the last 2 sets. that is a good place to start. from there to what I am doing now where i have a set group of exercises, a set loading parameter (5-8 x 5 sets) and a set starting weight (which can be decreased if need be to stay within the rep scheme). I then started at 30sec rest and each week shaved off 5sec. until I got down to 10sec rest. What is supposed to happen and, surprise surprise, what did happen was that I was to be movning the same amount of weight that i started with at week one except in a shorter period of time (better work capacity.....increased the workout density)..

Do you feel that this method of controlling intervals is more for breaking through a plateau, or would be benificial to gain mass as well.

Ah.. i guess Duncans post kinda answers that question.