Ass to the ground deep squats

CRASHMAN · 04-14-2005, 11:43 AM

ok, so, A little while back, my old power lifting coach told me its ok to do really deep squats. I just have a concern cause i'm doing ass to ankle squats with super heavy weight(350). Just wondering is this safe? i don't want to end up like me friend who had reconstructive surgery a 2 years ago and still not better (from snowboarding) I love my Squats!

devildog88 · 04-14-2005, 12:33 PM

Deep squats are way overrated! Anything past parrallel do more damage than good!

**Prince** · 04-14-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog88

Deep squats are way overrated! Anything past parrallel do more damage than good!

please back this statement up with some factual data.

vegman · 04-14-2005, 01:21 PM

What are the benifits of going lower than parallel?

KarlW · 04-14-2005, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog88

Deep squats are way overrated! Anything past parrallel do more damage than good!

Quote:

please back this statement up with some factual data.

**Prince** · 04-14-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegman

What are the benifits of going lower than parallel?

Full ROM, don't you strive for that in other lifts? You will incorporate more glutes and hams as well.

But even if there were no benefits lets see the science that shows going below parallel causes damage as he suggested.

**P-funk** · 04-14-2005, 01:57 PM

a) I believe i talked about this in one of the newsletters.

b) squatting and snowbaording are tow ocmpletely differnet things. I mean, squatting for one is a stationary exercise. Snowbaording there is a lot of enrgy transfer, body movement and hip movement. One wuick turn and you can tear and acl or if you come of a jump really hard you can blow something out, the force of gravity can really put some pressure on your meniscus if you lock out and then twist even slightly. Snowbaording is much more dynamic.

KarlW · 04-14-2005, 02:09 PM

As far as the knees are concerned, I think it's fair to say that snowboarding is risky, but I don't see what that has to do with squats.

Rocco32 · 04-14-2005, 02:29 PM

ATF squats are MUCH better than parrellel. I hurt (in a good way) in more places when I do full ROM rather than to parrellel. Plus when you go AFT, there is no doubt in your mind your going deep enough

devildog88 · 04-14-2005, 02:33 PM

Squating below parrallel puts the patella tendon in a bad position. It becomes bound by the patella itself. Squating is a natural position granted but not with twice, three times or even four times your body weight. It is truely hard on your knees. Football teams have quit full squats all together. Box squats, just above parrallel are just as benificial in most all applications.

**P-funk** · 04-14-2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog88

Squating below parrallel puts the patella tendon in a bad position. It becomes bound by the patella itself. Squating is a natural position granted but not with twice, three times or even four times your body weight. It is truely hard on your knees. Football teams have quit full squats all together. Box squats, just above parrallel are just as benificial in most all applications.

box squats above parallel are beneficial because more often than not people are working on that lock out power.

you can't find one studt in a peer reveiwed journal that will back up what you said about the patella tendon. Quite the opposite actually. Most studies will say that squating below parallel can lead to a strengthening of the patella tendon through that ROM.

vegman · 04-14-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog88

Squating below parrallel puts the patella tendon in a bad position. It becomes bound by the patella itself. Squating is a natural position granted but not with twice, three times or even four times your body weight. It is truely hard on your knees. Football teams have quit full squats all together. Box squats, just above parrallel are just as benificial in most all applications.

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocco32

ATF squats are MUCH better than parrellel.

How are they much better?

Rocco32 · 04-14-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vegman

I agree.

How are they much better?

Have you not read the thread?

vegman · 04-14-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocco32

Have you not read the thread?

I'm not convinced.
It doesn't help that my knees "crack" if go below parrellel either.

devildog88 · 04-14-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

box squats above parallel are beneficial because more often than not people are working on that lock out power.

you can't find one studt in a peer reveiwed journal that will back up what you said about the patella tendon. Quite the opposite actually. Most studies will say that squating below parallel can lead to a strengthening of the patella tendon through that ROM.

I disagree. I have seen to many young men end their career as football players trying to do deep squats. As a result, since I have become the head coach I won't allow my athletes to do low squats. Maybe I am just lucky but I haven't lost one player to a knee injury. By the way we played for the state championship last year and in the semifinals the year before.

Deeznuts · 04-14-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog88

Deep squats are way overrated! Anything past parrallel do more damage than good!

I strongly disagree. My strength on squats went through the roof when I began training "ass to the floor". It burns my hams and glutes in a way I didn't think was possible.

As far as safety goes, wear a belt on real heavy weight to protect your back. And, if you're doing reps with weight you're unsure of make sure you have a spot. Heavy squats will take a tole on your body no matter what as time goes on. Below parallel squats may speed up this process, but it may not. If you're looking for the best way to build muslce and strength I say below parallel is the way to go (just my opinion). Maybe not for all your sets, but some at least. Vary things up a little and see what happens.

Good luck.

KarlW · 04-14-2005, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devildog88

. I have seen to many young men end their career as football players trying to do deep squats.

Surely there's a lot of assumption in this statement. Are you saying they injured their knees WHILE deep squatting? If that is the case then I would agree it's a bad idea, but maybe they had bad form as well. Or are you saying they performed deep squats then injured their knees playing football?

CRASHMAN · 04-14-2005, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

b) squatting and snowbaording are tow ocmpletely differnet things. I mean, squatting for one is a stationary exercise. Snowbaording there is a lot of enrgy transfer, body movement and hip movement. One wuick turn and you can tear and acl or if you come of a jump really hard you can blow something out, the force of gravity can really put some pressure on your meniscus if you lock out and then twist even slightly. Snowbaording is much more dynamic.

I wasn't comparing the two. i was just saying i dont want to end up all gimpy like him

not by doing the same thing

Jay334 · 04-14-2005, 08:36 PM

Acording to this page full squats place greater stress on the knees.

**P-funk** · 04-14-2005, 08:44 PM

myth #1

KarlW · 04-14-2005, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay334

Acording to this page full squats place greater stress on the knees.

It doesn't really say that. It says, which is well known, that you shouldn't bounce off the bottom.

**P-funk** · 04-14-2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlW

It doesn't really say that. It says, which is well known, that you shouldn't bounce off the bottom.

lol, if anything it says this:

Quote:

Kreighbaum conclude the deep squat is of little danger to the knees unless these variables and factors are disregarded

Deeznuts · 04-14-2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

myth #1

Nice site P

vegman · 04-15-2005, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

myth #1

Thanks for the link, that's good stuff

Jay334 · 04-15-2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlW

It doesn't really say that. It says, which is well known, that you shouldn't bounce off the bottom.

Maybe you missed this part:

Quote:

Simply by not squatting down all the way (e.g. 90°) both the knees and hip do not experience as great of torque forces.

KarlW · 04-15-2005, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay334

Maybe you missed this part:

In context:

"It is not necessary to avoid the torque force if the muscles and joint structures can adapt.Certainly, if an individual has had a history of knee pain associated with these types of movements, the squat can be modified to to place more torque on the hip and consequently less on the knee joint. Based on the above analysis, this can be accomplished two ways. Simply by not squatting down all the way (e.g. 90°) both the knees and hip do not experience as great of torque forces."

Of course, if one experiences pain in any exercise one should stop and examine things.

04-14-2005, 12:33 PM	#2
devildog88 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 795 Photos: 1	Deep squats are way overrated! Anything past parrallel do more damage than good!
	"Everyone wants to win but not everyone is willing to prepare to win" Bobby Knight

04-14-2005, 01:21 PM	#4
vegman 190 Here I Come! Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 339	What are the benifits of going lower than parallel?
vegman 190 Here I Come! Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 339	Note to self: Eat More, Train Hard, and Eat More!

04-14-2005, 01:57 PM	#7
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,629	a) I believe i talked about this in one of the newsletters. b) squatting and snowbaording are tow ocmpletely differnet things. I mean, squatting for one is a stationary exercise. Snowbaording there is a lot of enrgy transfer, body movement and hip movement. One wuick turn and you can tear and acl or if you come of a jump really hard you can blow something out, the force of gravity can really put some pressure on your meniscus if you lock out and then twist even slightly. Snowbaording is much more dynamic.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-14-2005, 02:09 PM	#8
KarlW My Little Man Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Oz Posts: 1,030	As far as the knees are concerned, I think it's fair to say that snowboarding is risky, but I don't see what that has to do with squats.
	What this means is that when we drop a ball and it falls to the ground, it wasn't the ball that moved (down to the ground), but the ground that moved (up to the ball)

04-14-2005, 02:29 PM	#9
Rocco32 UNLEASH THE BEAST Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 22,313 Photos: 18	ATF squats are MUCH better than parrellel. I hurt (in a good way) in more places when I do full ROM rather than to parrellel. Plus when you go AFT, there is no doubt in your mind your going deep enough
	I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain...

04-14-2005, 11:43 AM	#1
CRASHMAN SoCal. Stud Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: in a box on a corner near you Posts: 10,080 Photos: 2	Ass to the ground deep squats ok, so, A little while back, my old power lifting coach told me its ok to do really deep squats. I just have a concern cause i'm doing ass to ankle squats with super heavy weight(350). Just wondering is this safe? i don't want to end up like me friend who had reconstructive surgery a 2 years ago and still not better (from snowboarding) I love my Squats!

04-14-2005, 02:33 PM	#10
devildog88 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 795 Photos: 1	Squating below parrallel puts the patella tendon in a bad position. It becomes bound by the patella itself. Squating is a natural position granted but not with twice, three times or even four times your body weight. It is truely hard on your knees. Football teams have quit full squats all together. Box squats, just above parrallel are just as benificial in most all applications.
	"Everyone wants to win but not everyone is willing to prepare to win" Bobby Knight

04-14-2005, 08:36 PM	#19
Jay334 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 20	Acording to this page full squats place greater stress on the knees.
Jay334 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 20

04-14-2005, 08:44 PM	#20
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,629	myth #1
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Looking for online training/coaching/consulting? --> Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book