Thread: Legs still sore...OK to work them out again?

Give them another day or two.

training while a little sore is fine.

Why excactly would a muscle be sore, if not in the process of repair?

Um, thanks for the conflicting report?

I'm asking the question myself. I think the answer your looking for is: yesno.

OK, I am no expert, but I think training them while sore is OK but I would not do it repeatedly b/c you risk over training.

I am 38 years old and i play basketball, so i waited until my legs were NOT sore to workout, I'd never work them out.

Protein synthesis returns to baseline ~48hrs after working out so after that you're not really repairing muscle anymore.

Because protein synthesis is baseline means that you aren't repairing muscle? Just because a value is normalized or baseline doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't some positive net protein balance occuring (as far as I'm aware), depending on a number of individual factors. Also, if one is in a continually overtrained state, the system might need more time to regenerate and supercompensate (systemically and locally according to what is being trained). IE, one might be in a perpetual state of negative net protein balance, CNS blowout, etc. (overtraining) and a layoff of several weeks might be necessary to correct the problem (at which point the system itself will be able to overcome this negative balance and likewise improve from a state of overuse atrophy). I wouldn't train if they are sore for various reasons, paticularly CNS considerations. I personally believe that the more one trains while sore, the further one is pushed to overtraining (that is exceeding one's limitations and deriving negative benefits, such as overuse atrophy, in correspondence with the principle of diminishing returns).

If you are training them twice a week and they are still that sore today from a monday workout then maybe you need to check your volume and intensity on that mon. workout because maybe you over did it.

I agree with P-funk. Perhaps you should re-assess your volume and intensity to better fit your biweekly workout, or perhaps you should perform your leg work just once a week. I would also agree with the above that there is no other reason for your legs to be sore other than continued reparation. If I were in your shoes, I would judge how sore my legs are; if I couldn't complete the workout, I'd change it so I could do it twice a week, or change it to once a week. Of course, your body may eventually get used to it and not need as long to repair itself and that means you won't be sore for as long (I'm not as sore from my workouts as I used to be). It's really up to you, but don't work out when you're sore for a prolonged period of time because then it's definitely going to become a problem.

Originally Posted by Yanick

Protein synthesis returns to baseline ~48hrs after working out so after that you're not really repairing muscle anymore.

wrong. youre not BUILDING the muscle when protein synthesis ends. however, you may still be repairing it. when you pull a muscle, your body doesn't stop repairing it after 48 hours

wait until youre not sore anymore.

i'm gonna address this when i get home...but i just want to say that yes what DD said was true if you are always sore and training while sore you risk overtraining your CNS, however since we do not know this guy's workout we can't judge whether or not he is risking overtraining his CNS since DOMS is not an indication of the state of the CNS.

Originally Posted by DimebagDarrell

wrong. youre not BUILDING the muscle when protein synthesis ends. however, you may still be repairing it. when you pull a muscle, your body doesn't stop repairing it after 48 hours

wait until youre not sore anymore.

wow your smart you deserve a cookie, especially that smiley. man how do you do it?

J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Apr;24(2):134S-139S. Related Articles, Links


Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.

Phillips SM, Hartman JW, Wilkinson SB.

Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1 CANADA. phillis@mcmaster.ca

Resistance exercise is fundamentally anabolic and as such stimulates the process of skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) in an absolute sense and relative to skeletal muscle protein breakdown (MPB). However, the net effect of resistance exercise is to shift net protein balance (NPB = MPS - MPB) to a more positive value; however, in the absence of feeding NPB remains negative. Feeding stimulates MPS to an extent where NPB becomes positive, for a transient time. When combined, resistance exercise and feeding synergistically interact to result in NPB being greater than with feeding alone. This feeding- and exercise-induced stimulation of NPB is what, albeit slowly, results in muscle hypertrophy. With this rudimentary knowledge we are now at the point where we can manipulate variables within the system to see what impact these interventions have on the processes of MPS, MPB, and NPB and ultimately and perhaps most importantly, muscle hypertrophy and strength. We used established models of skeletal muscle amino acid turnover to examine how protein source (milk versus soy) acutely affects the processes of MPS and MPB after resistance exercise. Our findings revealed that even when balanced quantities of total protein and energy are consumed that milk proteins are more effective in stimulating amino acid uptake and net protein deposition in skeletal muscle after resistance exercise than are hydrolyzed soy proteins. Importantly, the finding of increased amino acid uptake would be independent of the differences in amino acid composition of the two proteins. We propose that the improved net protein deposition with milk protein consumption is also not due to differences in amino acid composition, but is due to a different pattern of amino acid delivery associated with milk versus hydrolyzed soy proteins. If our acute findings are accurate then we hypothesized that chronically the greater net protein deposition associated with milk protein consumption post-resistance exercise would eventually lead to greater net protein accretion (i.e., muscle fiber hypertrophy), over a longer time period. In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency (P = 0.11) for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk. While strength gains were not different between the soy and milk-supplemented groups we would argue that the true significance of a greater increase in lean mass that we observed with milk consumption may be more important in groups of persons with lower initial lean mass and strength such as the elderly.

PMID: 15798080 [PubMed - in process]

and this is from Bryan Haycock, aka creator of HST

Originally Posted by Bryan Haycock

2) Acute vs. Chronic Stimuli
In order for the loading to result in significant hypertrophy, the stimulus must be applied with sufficient frequency to create a new "environment", as opposed to seemingly random and acute assaults on the mechanical integrity of the tissue. The downside of taking a week of rest every time you load a muscle is that many of the acute responses to training like increased protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF-1 levels, and mRNA levels all return to normal in about 36 hours. So, you spend 2 days growing and half a week in a semi-anticatabolic state returning to normal (some people call this recovery), when research shows us that recovery can take place unabated even if a the muscle is loaded again in 48 hours. So true anabolism from loading only lasts 2 days at best once the load is removed. The rest of the time you are simply balancing nitrogen retention without adding to it.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Because protein synthesis is baseline means that you aren't repairing muscle? Just because a value is normalized or baseline doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't some positive net protein balance occuring (as far as I'm aware), depending on a number of individual factors. Also, if one is in a continually overtrained state, the system might need more time to regenerate and supercompensate (systemically and locally according to what is being trained). IE, one might be in a perpetual state of negative net protein balance, CNS blowout, etc. (overtraining) and a layoff of several weeks might be necessary to correct the problem (at which point the system itself will be able to overcome this negative balance and likewise improve from a state of overuse atrophy). I wouldn't train if they are sore for various reasons, paticularly CNS considerations. I personally believe that the more one trains while sore, the further one is pushed to overtraining (that is exceeding one's limitations and deriving negative benefits, such as overuse atrophy, in correspondence with the principle of diminishing returns).

DD,

you're correct on all your points however i think you are misunderstanding what i'm saying. if you're a little sore, training as scheduled really won't hurt that much in the long run, sure if you're always sore and your always training while sore you will/can very likely overtrain, but we're talkin a little bit of lingering DOMS which will probably not be there in another week even if he keeps his program the same.

that happens to me if i take a break for a week or two, when i come back i get some serious DOMS and by the next scheduled workout i'm still hurting a bit but that shouldn't stop you from training. now i don't really know whats going on in your body with DOMS and if i'm not mistaken there are only theories on it, so i don't think it should be used as an absolute marker of recovery.

Ex:
Sports Med. 1995 Jul;20(1):24-40. Related Articles, Links


Delayed muscle soreness. The inflammatory response to muscle injury and its clinical implications.

MacIntyre DL, Reid WD, McKenzie DC.

School of Rehabilitation Sciences, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada.

Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is a sensation of discomfort that occurs 1 to 2 days after exercise. The soreness has been reported to be most evident at the muscle/tendon junction initially, and then spreading throughout the muscle. The muscle activity which causes the most soreness and injury to the muscle is eccentric activity. The injury to the muscle has been well described but the mechanism underlying the injury is not fully understood. Some recent studies have focused on the role of the cytoskeleton and its contribution to the sarcomere injury. Although little has been confirmed regarding the mechanisms involved in the production of delayed muscle soreness, it has been suggested that the soreness may occur as a result of mechanical factors or it may be biochemical in nature. To date, there appears to be no relationship between the development of soreness and the loss of muscle strength, in that the timing of the two events is different. Loss of muscle force has been observed immediately after the exercise. However, by collecting data at more frequent intervals a second loss of force has been reported in mice 1 to 3 days post-exercise. Future studies with humans may find this second loss of force to be related to DOMS. The role of inflammation during exercise-induced muscle injury has not been clearly defined. It is possible that the inflammatory response may be responsible for initiating, amplifying, and/or resolving skeletal muscle injury. Evidence from the literature of the involvement of cytokines, complement, neutrophils, monocytes and macrophages in the acute phase response are presented in this review. Clinically, DOMS is a common but self-limiting condition that usually requires no treatment. Most exercise enthusiasts are familiar with its symptoms. However, where a muscle has been immobilised or debilitated, it is not known how that muscle will respond to exercise, especially eccentric activity.

PMID: 7481277 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Originally Posted by Yanick

DD,

that happens to me if i take a break for a week or two, when i come back i get some serious DOMS and by the next scheduled workout i'm still hurting a bit but that shouldn't stop you from overtraining. now i don't really know whats going on in your body with DOMS and if i'm not mistaken there are only theories on it, so i don't think it should be used as an absolute marker of recovery.

Agreed. My volume is low and intensity is relatively high, so I usually get DOMS that lasts a day with a stretching program and appropriate nutritioning. Your point on what exactly DOMS is is well taken, in reailty, the causes could be in the dozens (microtrauma to tissue i.e. physical damage to the myosin cross bridges or other filament damage, strains or pulls, mineral or hormonal imbalance, i.e. a lack of calcium ion replinishment, irritation of the motor nerve or CNS fatigue, systemic fatigue, energy system fatigue -glycogenolysis, glycolysis, lipolysis accounted to hormonal shifts, blah blah).

In any case, frankly I think working out the legs twice in the span of three or four days means either 1) You aren't working out hard or 2) You are working out hard and not bright enough to realize that the DOMS is a good indicator to stop. Clarifying, if you're doing a lot of sets or a high intensity, DON'T DO YOUR LEGS TWICE IN SUCH A TIME FRAME! I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, perhaps it exposes my own fallacy, but who can really have a difficult leg day twice in the span of three or four days? Don't forget, the control unit (CNS) can get blown out relative to the overall demands (volume/frequency) or the overall intensity, so you don't want to push yourself to the limits if you're using that kind of frequency.

A word on baseline protein synthesis levels, this level will inevitably fluctuate throughout the day, week, etc. and probably reduced to some average level. This does not mean that you are necessarily supercompensated (muscle wise) after 48 hours, just that your body has arrived back toward a more homeostatic state. The body will presumably account for it's losses in a progressively logical way, i.e. replinish fuel (glucose, glycogen, creatine) then work to overcoming the inroad to capacity (hypertrophy) and spike relative hormonal levels and so forth somewhere between and subsequent to these processes as an adaptive response. This is why nutrition, rest, and balancing MEASUREMENTS is so vital to optimization! The central nervous system is probably the last thing to recover so it might be intelligent to not work to failure if you are training with DOMS (i.e. pump the muscles to deliver nutrients and aid recovery).

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

Agreed. My volume is low and intensity is relatively high, so I usually get DOMS that lasts a day with a stretching program and appropriate nutritioning. Your point on what exactly DOMS is is well taken, in reailty, the causes could be in the dozens (microtrauma to tissue i.e. physical damage to the myosin cross bridges or other filament damage, strains or pulls, mineral or hormonal imbalance, i.e. a lack of calcium ion replinishment, irritation of the motor nerve or CNS fatigue, systemic fatigue, energy system fatigue -glycogenolysis, glycolysis, lipolysis accounted to hormonal shifts, blah blah).

haha good stuff, atleast we agree on something.

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

in any case, frankly I think working out the legs twice in the span of three or four days means either 1) You aren't working out hard or 2) You are working out hard and not bright enough to realize that the DOMS is a good indicator to stop. Clarifying, if you're doing a lot of sets or a high intensity, DON'T DO YOUR LEGS TWICE IN SUCH A TIME FRAME! I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, perhaps it exposes my own fallacy, but who can really have a difficult leg day twice in the span of three or four days? Don't forget, the control unit (CNS) can get blown out relative to the overall demands (volume/frequency) or the overall intensity, so you don't want to push yourself to the limits if you're using that kind of frequency.

completely agree with you here too. you can't go high volume/frequency/intensity all at the same time, i just always felt that that is common sense

Originally Posted by Duncans Donuts

A word on baseline protein synthesis levels, this level will inevitably fluctuate throughout the day, week, etc. and probably reduced to some average level. This does not mean that you are necessarily supercompensated (muscle wise) after 48 hours, just that your body has arrived back toward a more homeostatic state. The body will presumably account for it's losses in a progressively logical way, i.e. replinish fuel (glucose, glycogen, creatine) then work to overcoming the inroad to capacity (hypertrophy) and spike relative hormonal levels and so forth somewhere between and subsequent to these processes as an adaptive response. This is why nutrition, rest, and balancing MEASUREMENTS is so vital to optimization! The central nervous system is probably the last thing to recover so it might be intelligent to not work to failure if you are training with DOMS (i.e. pump the muscles to deliver nutrients and aid recovery).

yea i see where you're going with this. honestly i never gave the topic much thought or research, just read those HST articles a while ago and it made sense that if your a bit sore you shouldn't miss a training day(once again i emphasize acute vs chronic training with DOMS). and on another note, i looked up Bryan's references from the article and couldn't even find an abstract that would support that whole 48hrs thing which is strange because that seems to be the key element to HST

i'm really beat today and i'm about to just pass out but i'll try and find some more stuff about this topic tomorrow, i haven't read anything new on it in so long and now i'm really interested. if people have any info please post it up i'm very interested in reading anything people have on the subject.

CNS fatigue is a systemic issue, DOMS is a localized reaction to what could be overtraining but, more times than not, isn't. I think CNS fatigue is the new "functional training", every yahoo is writing about it because someone of a high caliber wrote about it once. Before you know it everyone is overtraining their CNS. I s'pose it is the 2000's vesion of insulin resistance.

I do agree with Duncan, though, 1x a week is enough for legs, otherwise you are pussing out on your leg day.

Originally Posted by Yanick

wow your smart you deserve a cookie, especially that smiley. man how do you do it?

hmmmm.... great response. i'm just weary of overtraining. i dont see the need in it. i agree that if youve healed fully there's no problem training it again in 48 hours. but some workouts (like the ones i do) are high-intensity, and i dont get sore until ~36 hours after i train the muscles.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I s'pose it is the 2000's vesion of insulin resistance.

great way of putting it

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I do agree with Duncan, though, 1x a week is enough for legs, otherwise you are pussing out on your leg day.

i hit legs 3x/week and i would call my leg training anything but pussy, atleast to me.

You hit legs 3x a week!!! Your out of your damn mind. I do 10 sets of 10 squats on Monday and need atlest 5-6 days to recover. I dont think my CNS could handle doing that more than once a week.

I'm not speculating either about the CNS thing either. I didnt like hear about it and say oh I dont think my CNS could handle it. Like I really believe that my, I am going to say mind but its not really that, could handle that much more than once a week. Its one of the sixth sense feels that can't really be described in words.

Jesus Yanick, you hit your legs 3 times a week? What kind of volume and intensity do you use? In order to incorporate progressive overload, I'm lucky to hit them once vevery 7 days...