Rissole

So we all do SLDL for hammies right?? Why??
I thought the best way to train a muscle for growth was through it's range of motion...
So what do our hammies do?? Thats right, they curl our leg behind us don't they??
SLDL's are only placing static load on the hamstring and its the Glutes that would pull you back up....
Please correct me if i'm wrong cause all i'm choosing to do is leg curls and hamstring raises for hammies. Damn.... deep squats smash my hammies more than SLDL's.
I feel that SLDL's are pretty deadly so if i don't need to do them i won't

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TriZZle305

good question, i want to know too.. Bump

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Yanick

the answer is simple...the hamstrings cross two joints hip and knee so they flex your knee and extend the hips.

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gr81

The hamstrings have dual functionality, yes they flex the lower leg, but they also extend the hips. Most people when they do work them, just concentrate on this lower-leg flexing capability by doing the occasional set of leg curls. Often only one insertion point gets trained in these cases, and as far as hamstring movements are concerned, these lying legs curls are near worthless

Most ham workouts completely neglect the semitendinosis and semimembranosus. Anatomical research points out what track and field coaches have known for years: hamstrings are connected as a chain to the glutes and back extensors, erector spinae. It stands to reason that your hamstring workouts should involve exercises for both the hip extension function and the knee flexor function, hence, the good mornings/semi-stiff legged deadlift movements

P-funk

great posts yan and gr81. Ya'all beat me to it.


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Rissole

OK, they are the kind of answers i was looking for i tried to find some pics that show the insertion and point of origin.
So still.... don't deep squats take you through that ROM anyway??
And gr81, are you saying that you can train just the insertion point of a muscle?? Come now... we know that a muscle contracts as a whole so leg curls are far from "near worthless"
Sorry to be a pain in the ass boys Just tryin to learn some shit... i start my Cert 3 next week (gym instructors cert)

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Dale Mabry

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gr81

Hold up now my friend from down under, they are near worthless b/c they are not going to fully develop the muscle. The hams are a very unique and misunderstood muscle Riss, take into account the number of fast twitch fibers for one, and the involvement in the hip and entire posterior chain. The calves are similar in the sense that if you just train calves in a seated position, and never with a straight leg for instance, you are ignoring a huge part of the function. If you had to pick 1 weighted movement to do for the hams it would have to be a Glute Ham Raise, with a SLDL of some variation close. Quick, high intensity activities such as printing are extremely underrated for Ham developement as well

Dale Mabry

I would throw Reverse hypers in and you've got a party. Very few have access to that machine, however.

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gr81

yeah, thats why I didn't mention it really. Most anyone can find a way to do some GH Raises, but the hypers are harder to accommodate. Man its awesome thou, the gym I train at now actually has a real GH Raise AND a reverse hyper machine, its fuccin awesome, very westside capatable I must say! very pleased

TJ Cline

Hey gr81, please explain the glute ham raise. I have heard you talk abiut it and was wondering how to do it. Is it done on a specific machine, or can anyone do it at any gym. Right now at my gym all there is to train hamstrings is Hamstring curls and STDL.

Triple Threat

Do you have any suggestions for doing these without a GH Raise machine?

gr81

(From T-mag)
Glute Ham Raise

This one is simply the nastiest of all hamstring exercises! It'll give you a powerful set of hams and add a new level of ferocity to your training.

Basically, keep the hips and abs squeezed tight as you lower yourself down with control, being careful not to bend forward. As you invariably collapse, have your hands meet the ground and push off to the point where you can pull yourself back up using your hamstrings.


Glute/Ham Raise — While I reported on how this exercise was used by physiologists to lengthen the sarcomeres in the hamstrings and thereby reduce the incidence of hamstring injuries, strength coaches like John Davies and Dave Tate have been using them for a long time.

While there probably isn’t a specific "Glute/Ham Raise Machine," you can duplicate the movement easily enough by using either one of those old-fashioned straight sit-up boards with the Velcro straps, or even the traditional family couch. Alternately, you can use sandbags, or have your training partner hold your ankles down.

You simply stand on your knees away from the anchor (either the couch or the Velcro straps), and slowly lower your body to the ground while keeping your back straight and focusing on the hamstrings. If you’re like most people, you’ll need to keep your hands out in front of you to catch yourself, just in case you can’t do the movement and you end up kissing pavement.


heres actually just a good overall article on quality hams movements that I pulled the pics from:
8 Hamstring movements

gr81

heres what an actual GHR machine looks like if you were curious..


A few words from Dave Tate about the movement
This is a special exercise that strengthens the gluteus maximus, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius all with the same movement. This exercise was developed in Russia and is one of the best exercises for increasing speed and power in the posterior chain. You begin the movement with the use of a special Glute Ham Raise bench by using your glutes to raise the body. At this point, the hamstrings take over, then the gastrocnemius finishes the movement. During the movement it is important to push your toes against the toe plate. It is also important to control the eccentric part of the movement.

Cut from "8 Keys" article.
Glute Ham Raises with a real GHR bench! The reason I say "real bench" is that I'm in the equipment business, so I see the junk that's out there and it frustrates the hell out of me. First off, a so-called "natural" glute ham raise (where you kneel on the floor and someone holds your heals as you fall forward) is not a glute ham raise; it's a manual hamstring curl.

Second, to the beginner, a GHR should be hard to do. If you get on a bench and can knock out 10 to 15 reps the first time you do it, then the machine isn't built correctly. The toe plate should be long enough to push your toes into it. The pad should have an angle on it to keep your body in the correct position so you don't fall off at the top. I can go on and on with this, but the fact is that too many companies build equipment designed by people who've never lifted a real weight in their lives!

To do a GHR, you'll start with your body in a horizontal position on the bench with your toes pushed into the toe plate. Your knees will be set two inches behind the pad and your back will be rounded with your chin tucked. You then push your toes into the pad and curl your body up with your hamstrings while keeping your back rounded. As you approach the top position, squeeze your glutes to finish in a vertical position.



The sets and rep scheme for the GHR depends on the strength of the lifter. I find most athletes and lifters to be very bad at these as the hamstring strength of most people is downright terrible. For those who fall into this category, I'd have them do two to three sets of GHR as part of their warm-up for every workout of the week. I suggest they strive to get 3 sets of 10 reps. This will mean for most that they'll be doing three sets to failure, failing around 3 to 5 reps each set. Over time this will improve.

Once they get better, I'd have them keep the GHR as a warm-up movement and drop the sets and reps to 3 sets of 8 reps. At this time in the program, they'd now add the GHR as a main movement as part of the main session at least one time per week. Yes, they'll be doing GHR's five times per week!

For the main session there are several suggestions to follow for the highest success. While doing the GHR as the main movement, it's "bust ass" time. The reps and sets will fall into several categories and should be rotated every few weeks. Examples of these programs would include:

• Three sets to failure

• One hundred total reps (using as many sets as needed)

• Three heavy sets of 5 to 6 reps while holding weight across chest

• Three heavy sets of 5 to 6 reps while holding weight behind head

• Three heavy sets of 5 to 6 reps with the back of machine inclined up 4 to 30 inches.

• Dynamic GHR sets — Here you get to the top position and drop fast and rebound out of the bottom with as much force as you can. You can use a heavy medicine ball or weight to lower faster and drop the weight at the bottom.

• Static-Dynamic GHR — Start at the horizontal position and have a training partner place his hands on your back for a three to five-second count. While doing this, drive into your partner’s hands as hard as you can. After the five seconds, your partner will pull away and you should fire up as fast as you can to finish the rep. This is best preformed with 5 to 6 sets of 3 reps.

• Yielding GHR — For this version you'll break the movement into three holding positions, each for 5 to 10 seconds. Start at the horizontal position and hold for 10 seconds, raise halfway and hold for another 10 seconds, then rise to the top and hold for 10 more.

• Timed GHR — In this version you'll give yourself a set time and do as many reps as you can. For example, you use five minutes and end up with 70 reps the first time you do it. The next time you'd use the same time and try to beat the 70 reps.

• GHR with bands — This is a movement for the more advanced lifter. Strap each of the bands around the bottom of the GHR and place the other end around your upper traps. The bands will add heavy resistance at the top.

• Forced GHR with heavy eccentric — This is a good version for those who aren't strong enough to get one rep. With this version the training partner will help the lifter get to the top and then he'd lower the rep on his own. Only enough assistance should be applied to help the lifter get one rep. Sets of 3 to 5 reps are best with this style of the GHR.

TJ Cline

This exercise would also work the lower back? I could do these before hyperextensions right?

gr81

well it should be more glute and hams than lower back, you wanna keep yrou torso relatively straight to keep tension throughout. Its kindof awkward the first few time, but you will be able to adjust and feel it. read my second post, its a more detailed description. Its really too bad you never see this piece of equipment anywhere b/c an actual machine is so much harder than doin em on the floor. I was bangin out like 80+ a week before I had an actual GHR machine, lets just say I wasn't doin nearly that high number of reps anymore..lol

P-funk

the deep squats are great because you are going through a greater amount of hip ext. However you are also contracting your quads as you are extending at the knee as well. the SLDL's will take the quads out of it as your knee is fixed and your shank stays pretty much vertical placing more tension on the hip extensors (glutes and hams) as you drive your hips back and then contract.

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TriZZle305

i took highschool Anatomy Honors... only one chapter on skeletal muscle..

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sdupdike

This is great stuff. You guys are so knowlegeable.

Shannon

There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

gr81

its all good baby, P doesn't mean it personally. I know that most intermediate anatomy and really any high school health class are totally subpar. its no wonder there are so many stupid stereotypes that never die..lol

Squaggleboggin

I would take an anatomy course if my school offered it. It would be great to actually learn how everything works because then I wouldn't need to bug people on here as much. Good thing you guys like helping those of us without the proper knowledge or experience.

Speaking of full squats, why is it that no one really does full squats? I know powerlifting competitions use the parallel, and it seems like most people train with the parallel or boxes. Aren't full squats better for overall development and strength? I only train with full squats, but I was thinking about doing parallels. What exactly is the added benefit of full ones, more hamstring and quad involvement? Or can you just use other exercises instead and go with parallel? What do most of you train with?

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Dale Mabry

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Rissole

Awesome stuff fellas Thanks a bunch I now know bucket loads more than yesterday

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Rissole

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WATTS

great post