Max-ot vs p/rr/shock

dfauteux · 06-15-2005, 07:50 PM

I am in need of a little guidance here. I have been working out for a year and a half now, when I started I was 175lbs at 5-10", a little on the soft side. I went down to about 167 in the first 6 monthes, but am up to a very much more solid 180-182 lbs now. My problem is I am searching for a new work out and have been doing a ton of reading.

I printed out and read the whole max-ot 6 month workout, and have also read the p/rr/shock. Which would be better for me? I dont understand the max-ot theory that you can only build muscle doing sets with 4 to 6 reps, I am sure plenty of people have grown doing sets in the 6 to 8 range.

I am trying to decide between doing a p/rr/p/shock/rr/p/rr/shock type of workout or the max-ot, I am not sure but I think I might get bored doing always sets of 4 to 6 using heavy weight. Which would be the best to gain size ?

My split for the p/rr/shock workout would be something like this:

Monday: Legs, forearms
Wed: shoulders, tricpes
Friday: back, Bickeps
Sat: Chest, abs

ihateschoolmt · 06-15-2005, 07:57 PM

I would go with P/RR/S, and if I did Max ot I would do 6-8 reps instead of 4-6.

drew.haynes · 06-16-2005, 12:00 AM

I do, fundamentally, Max-OT workouts... 4-6 reps. You could try alternating 4-6 and 6-8 every week or somethin if you want.

TJ Cline · 06-16-2005, 12:15 AM

I would love to hear a description of both these types of workouts.

**CowPimp** · 06-16-2005, 02:53 AM

Personally, I prefer Max-OT. I have been seeing decent strength gains on it relative to P-RR-S. However, I do go down in strength with my legs today, but I just started cutting, so we shall see. It may also be a fluke.

In terms of size, either one will get you mass if you eat properly.

Also, 4-6 repetitions isn't touted as being the only rep range suitable for hypertrophy. The reason they suggest 4-6 repetitions is they claim that you can concentrate much better for a set of shorter duration.

TJ Cline · 06-16-2005, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Personally, I prefer Max-OT. I have been seeing decent strength gains on it relative to P-RR-S. However, I do go down in strength with my legs today, but I just started cutting, so we shall see. It may also be a fluke.

In terms of size, either one will get you mass if you eat properly.

Also, 4-6 repetitions isn't touted as being the only rep range suitable for hypertrophy. The reason they suggest 4-6 repetitions is they claim that you can concentrate much better for a set of shorter duration.

I would love to see the scientific research on how many reps create hypertrophy....Real medical physiology sources only.

**CowPimp** · 06-16-2005, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I would love to see the scientific research on how many reps create hypertrophy....Real medical physiology sources only.

I was stating that Max-OT doesn't suggest 4-6 repetitions is optimal for hypertrophy. Merely, it is suggested that concentration is better maintained for 4-6 reptitions as opposed to a greater number.

The statement I made about size was to point out that many different training methods will work, but diet is the overriding factor with all of them.

TJ Cline · 06-16-2005, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I was stating that Max-OT doesn't suggest 4-6 repetitions is optimal for hypertrophy. Merely, it is easier to concentrate for 4-6 reptitions as opposed to a greater number.

The statement I made about size was to point out that many different training methods will work, but diet is the overriding factor with all of them.

That doesn't answer either of my 2 questions.

**CowPimp** · 06-16-2005, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

That doesn't answer either of my 2 questions.

P-RR-S is a workout that uses linear periodization. Each week you use a different rep scheme and/or tempo. During power week you stick to the 4-6 repetiton range and perform a controlled negative and explosive positive portion of the movement. During the rep range week you use 8-12 repetitions, and you want to slow your tempo down so that the eccentric and concentric portions of the motion are slow and controlled. During shock week you perform super sets and dropsets, but you lower the volume significantly.

Max-OT promotes low volume high intensity training in the 4-6 repetition range.

Your other question sounded more like a challenge as opposed to a question; I apologize if I misinterpreted. I don't know any medical studies off hand that compare the effect of various rep ranges on hypertrophy.

TJ Cline · 06-16-2005, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

P-RR-S is a workout that uses linear periodization. Each week you use a different rep scheme and/or tempo. During power week you stick to the 4-6 repetiton range and perform a controlled negative and explosive positive portion of the movement. During the rep range week you use 8-12 repetitions, and you want to slow your tempo down so that the eccentric and concentric portions of the motion are slow and controlled. During shock week you perform super sets and dropsets, but you lower the volume significantly.

Max-OT promotes low volume high intensity training in the 4-6 repetition range.

Your other question sounded more like a challenge as opposed to a question; I apologize if I misinterpreted. I don't know any medical studies off hand that compare the effect of various rep ranges on hypertrophy.

Not at all, I have read up on both but I was unclear of the detailed of each type of workout.

chunky34 · 06-16-2005, 05:53 AM

I would go with p-rr-s because you do something different each week, something like a 3 routines rotation, which I think is a good thing to avoid plateau. DC use a 3 exercise rotation too, and I jump to p-rr-s from dc, that's why maybe I've been interested in p-rr-s training. Anyway, I think the rotation is a great thing, + you don'T use the same reps scheme so I find this useful because when Im on low reps (maxot) for too long, injuries came faster to me.

My vote for p-rr-s

chunky34 · 06-16-2005, 05:57 AM

Foreman rules :
I dont think there is specific studies about this, or well there is probably, but you will probably find that the founding dont really match. Some will say 10-12 is better, 4-6 , 8-10 ... I really think that you need to know yourself and what kind of training works for you, what do you like and especially, HOW do you like it. This way, you keep your training fun because you like it, motivation is there and hopefully, gains will come too. I also think that there is no really "magic rep range". I think however that hypertrophy comes from constant progression, whatever you use a 1-2-3-4-5 exercise rotation or the same routine for lets say 8-10 weeks, the key is to do more work (overload) each workout. This way you will grow, simply.

TJ Cline · 06-16-2005, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunky34

Foreman rules :
I dont think there is specific studies about this, or well there is probably, but you will probably find that the founding dont really match. Some will say 10-12 is better, 4-6 , 8-10 ... I really think that you need to know yourself and what kind of training works for you, what do you like and especially, HOW do you like it. This way, you keep your training fun because you like it, motivation is there and hopefully, gains will come too. I also think that there is no really "magic rep range". I think however that hypertrophy comes from constant progression, whatever you use a 1-2-3-4-5 exercise rotation or the same routine for lets say 8-10 weeks, the key is to do more work (overload) each workout. This way you will grow, simply.

I just wondered what the exact theory was,,,Personally I think 8-12 reps is bet for Hypertrophy....just wondered what the creators of these training systems were preaching.

drew.haynes · 06-16-2005, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunky34

I would go with p-rr-s because you do something different each week, something like a 3 routines rotation, which I think is a good thing to avoid plateau.

I would go with Max-OT, because I don't give muscles credit for
thinking and needing to be tricked. I think overload is a good thing to avoid plateau.

My vote for Max-OT.

EDIT: And this is NOT saying that I think you HAVE to do 4-6... but I think 4-6 or 6-8 is optimal as it is most likely to keep workouts intense and progressing with the ultimate goal of constant strength gains.

**gopro** · 06-17-2005, 03:07 PM

I used to basically train in Max-OT style and I built plenty of muscle on it, so I know it is a great program. However, I DID hit plateaus often, even if GAINING STRENGTH. However, I have been doing P/RR/S for 5 years straight now and have not hit a plateau at all. I am gaining muscle each year, which is tough after 15 years of training. I also have had probably about 100 people that have written me over the years that have told me that they switched from Max-OT over to P/RR/S and experienced much greater gains on my program.

There are dozens of people on this site (and others) that have provided feedback on P/RR/S.

Please understand that I am NOT outright saying that P/RR/S is better than Max-OT (although I firmly believe in the concepts behind my program more so than Max-OT), just providing my perspective.

Another great program to try aside from mine and Max-OT is DC training, but the best thing for each person to do is try each for a good length of time and decide for themselves.

drew.haynes · 06-17-2005, 03:19 PM

I think I'd maybe be interested at some point in trying somethin like P/RR... without the S.

**gopro** · 06-17-2005, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew.haynes

I think I'd maybe be interested at some point in trying somethin like P/RR... without the S.

Just curious...why without the S?

dfauteux · 06-17-2005, 06:01 PM

Just curious , what is DC training? I did the pp/rr/s workout for a few weeks and I was sore almost every day, and sweated a ton. I have only done the max -ot workout for 1 week now, but I have yet to be really sore the next day, and I dont get near as good a sweat going as I did using pp/rr/s. Is that a factor in stimulating growth? Being sore I mean not sweating.

ihateschoolmt · 06-17-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfauteux

Just curious , what is DC training?

Dogcrap training. You do one set per muscle 3 times a week. Your supposed to use a weight that is heavy enough for only 8 reps, with no help. Do 8 reps, rest 20 seconds do 3-5 rest 20 more seconds and do 2-3. It's something like that, I can't remember exactly and I can't find the site.

dfauteux · 06-17-2005, 08:16 PM

I have been doing a bit more reading on p/rr/shock, it is posted on rr day to do say 3 sets of 10 reps on a certain excercise, but in one of the links it says to do rep range like this:

Set 1: load your weight so that you can lift as heavy as possible to do 7-10
Set 2: Lower weight so you can lift as heavy as possible for 11-15
Set 3: Lower your weight so that you can lift as heavy as possible for 16-20.

Just curious which is it? 3 sets 10 or varying reps going up to 20 reps on set 3?

The more I read it the more I get a little confused. On rep range week is the the whole first exercise to be the same amount of reps say 7-10 reps for 3 sets? then the 2nd exercise to be 3 sets of 11 to 15 reps? Or is the the first exercise first set to be 7 reps, 2nd set 11 to 15 , and so on? Then repeat the process for the 2nd exercise for the same body part?

Also what happens when there are only 2 sets ? Just do the first 2 stages (7-9 and 11-15)?

chunky34 · 06-17-2005, 09:24 PM

For the one who want to know about DC :
http://intensemuscle.com/forumdisplay.php?f=45

gwcaton · 06-17-2005, 09:30 PM

dfauteux

http://ironmagazineforums.com/showpo...32&postcount=2

dfauteux · 06-17-2005, 09:41 PM

That looks good for a body part with 3 sets, but what do you do no leg day when leg day has like 6 exercises?

**gopro** · 06-17-2005, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfauteux

Just curious , what is DC training? I did the pp/rr/s workout for a few weeks and I was sore almost every day, and sweated a ton. I have only done the max -ot workout for 1 week now, but I have yet to be really sore the next day, and I dont get near as good a sweat going as I did using pp/rr/s. Is that a factor in stimulating growth? Being sore I mean not sweating.

Being sore per se is not a definite indication of growth. However, my opinion is that getting sore from workouts is a good indication that you are causing damage to muscle fibers, which IS generally a precursor to growth.

**gopro** · 06-17-2005, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfauteux

I have been doing a bit more reading on p/rr/shock, it is posted on rr day to do say 3 sets of 10 reps on a certain excercise, but in one of the links it says to do rep range like this:

Set 1: load your weight so that you can lift as heavy as possible to do 7-10
Set 2: Lower weight so you can lift as heavy as possible for 11-15
Set 3: Lower your weight so that you can lift as heavy as possible for 16-20.

Just curious which is it? 3 sets 10 or varying reps going up to 20 reps on set 3?

The more I read it the more I get a little confused. On rep range week is the the whole first exercise to be the same amount of reps say 7-10 reps for 3 sets? then the 2nd exercise to be 3 sets of 11 to 15 reps? Or is the the first exercise first set to be 7 reps, 2nd set 11 to 15 , and so on? Then repeat the process for the 2nd exercise for the same body part?

Also what happens when there are only 2 sets ? Just do the first 2 stages (7-9 and 11-15)?

For those that are basically beginners to P/RR/S, which means everyone using it for 6 months or less, you should follow this protocol for RR week:

Using chest as an example:

-bench press...3 X 7-9
-incline press...3 X 10-12
-cable crossover...2 X 13-15

Now, if you chose to use 4 exercises for more variety you can expand the range a bit further like this:

-bench press...2 X 7-9
-incline press...2 X 10-12
-flyes...2 X 13-15
-cable crossover...2 X 16-20

This is the way I have users of my program break down the reps nowadays as the program has gone through a few tweaks.

**gopro** · 06-17-2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfauteux

That looks good for a body part with 3 sets, but what do you do no leg day when leg day has like 6 exercises?

But those 6 exercises will be broken up between quads and hamstrings, which are two different bodyparts.

dfauteux · 06-17-2005, 11:21 PM

Doh! I feel dumb now I didnt even think about legs being split up into 2 different bodyparts, sorry. But thank you for the answers.

06-15-2005, 07:50 PM	#1
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76	Max-ot vs p/rr/shock I am in need of a little guidance here. I have been working out for a year and a half now, when I started I was 175lbs at 5-10", a little on the soft side. I went down to about 167 in the first 6 monthes, but am up to a very much more solid 180-182 lbs now. My problem is I am searching for a new work out and have been doing a ton of reading. I printed out and read the whole max-ot 6 month workout, and have also read the p/rr/shock. Which would be better for me? I dont understand the max-ot theory that you can only build muscle doing sets with 4 to 6 reps, I am sure plenty of people have grown doing sets in the 6 to 8 range. I am trying to decide between doing a p/rr/p/shock/rr/p/rr/shock type of workout or the max-ot, I am not sure but I think I might get bored doing always sets of 4 to 6 using heavy weight. Which would be the best to gain size ? My split for the p/rr/shock workout would be something like this: Monday: Legs, forearms Wed: shoulders, tricpes Friday: back, Bickeps Sat: Chest, abs
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76

06-16-2005, 12:00 AM	#3
drew.haynes Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tulsa, OK, USA Posts: 603	I do, fundamentally, Max-OT workouts... 4-6 reps. You could try alternating 4-6 and 6-8 every week or somethin if you want.
	195 @ 10% B/S/D:320/385/445

06-16-2005, 12:15 AM	#4
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544	I would love to hear a description of both these types of workouts.
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544

06-16-2005, 02:53 AM	#5
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Personally, I prefer Max-OT. I have been seeing decent strength gains on it relative to P-RR-S. However, I do go down in strength with my legs today, but I just started cutting, so we shall see. It may also be a fluke. In terms of size, either one will get you mass if you eat properly. Also, 4-6 repetitions isn't touted as being the only rep range suitable for hypertrophy. The reason they suggest 4-6 repetitions is they claim that you can concentrate much better for a set of shorter duration.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

06-16-2005, 05:53 AM	#11
chunky34 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	I would go with p-rr-s because you do something different each week, something like a 3 routines rotation, which I think is a good thing to avoid plateau. DC use a 3 exercise rotation too, and I jump to p-rr-s from dc, that's why maybe I've been interested in p-rr-s training. Anyway, I think the rotation is a great thing, + you don'T use the same reps scheme so I find this useful because when Im on low reps (maxot) for too long, injuries came faster to me. My vote for p-rr-s
chunky34 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	God bless Use the discount code JFA999 for 5% discount on trueprotein.com orders.

06-15-2005, 07:57 PM	#2
ihateschoolmt Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,796 Photos: 10	I would go with P/RR/S, and if I did Max ot I would do 6-8 reps instead of 4-6.

06-16-2005, 05:57 AM	#12
chunky34 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	Foreman rules : I dont think there is specific studies about this, or well there is probably, but you will probably find that the founding dont really match. Some will say 10-12 is better, 4-6 , 8-10 ... I really think that you need to know yourself and what kind of training works for you, what do you like and especially, HOW do you like it. This way, you keep your training fun because you like it, motivation is there and hopefully, gains will come too. I also think that there is no really "magic rep range". I think however that hypertrophy comes from constant progression, whatever you use a 1-2-3-4-5 exercise rotation or the same routine for lets say 8-10 weeks, the key is to do more work (overload) each workout. This way you will grow, simply.
chunky34 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	God bless Use the discount code JFA999 for 5% discount on trueprotein.com orders.

06-17-2005, 03:07 PM	#15
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Florida Posts: 10,523	I used to basically train in Max-OT style and I built plenty of muscle on it, so I know it is a great program. However, I DID hit plateaus often, even if GAINING STRENGTH. However, I have been doing P/RR/S for 5 years straight now and have not hit a plateau at all. I am gaining muscle each year, which is tough after 15 years of training. I also have had probably about 100 people that have written me over the years that have told me that they switched from Max-OT over to P/RR/S and experienced much greater gains on my program. There are dozens of people on this site (and others) that have provided feedback on P/RR/S. Please understand that I am NOT outright saying that P/RR/S is better than Max-OT (although I firmly believe in the concepts behind my program more so than Max-OT), just providing my perspective. Another great program to try aside from mine and Max-OT is DC training, but the best thing for each person to do is try each for a good length of time and decide for themselves.
	Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. GOLIATH LABS Sponsored Athlete/Board Rep www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

06-17-2005, 03:19 PM	#16
drew.haynes Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tulsa, OK, USA Posts: 603	I think I'd maybe be interested at some point in trying somethin like P/RR... without the S.
	195 @ 10% B/S/D:320/385/445

06-17-2005, 06:01 PM	#18
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76	Just curious , what is DC training? I did the pp/rr/s workout for a few weeks and I was sore almost every day, and sweated a ton. I have only done the max -ot workout for 1 week now, but I have yet to be really sore the next day, and I dont get near as good a sweat going as I did using pp/rr/s. Is that a factor in stimulating growth? Being sore I mean not sweating.
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76

06-17-2005, 08:16 PM	#20
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76	I have been doing a bit more reading on p/rr/shock, it is posted on rr day to do say 3 sets of 10 reps on a certain excercise, but in one of the links it says to do rep range like this: Set 1: load your weight so that you can lift as heavy as possible to do 7-10 Set 2: Lower weight so you can lift as heavy as possible for 11-15 Set 3: Lower your weight so that you can lift as heavy as possible for 16-20. Just curious which is it? 3 sets 10 or varying reps going up to 20 reps on set 3? The more I read it the more I get a little confused. On rep range week is the the whole first exercise to be the same amount of reps say 7-10 reps for 3 sets? then the 2nd exercise to be 3 sets of 11 to 15 reps? Or is the the first exercise first set to be 7 reps, 2nd set 11 to 15 , and so on? Then repeat the process for the 2nd exercise for the same body part? Also what happens when there are only 2 sets ? Just do the first 2 stages (7-9 and 11-15)? Last edited by dfauteux : 06-17-2005 at 09:01 PM. Reason: missing something
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76

06-17-2005, 09:24 PM	#21
chunky34 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	For the one who want to know about DC : http://intensemuscle.com/forumdisplay.php?f=45
chunky34 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 103	God bless Use the discount code JFA999 for 5% discount on trueprotein.com orders.

06-17-2005, 09:30 PM	#22
gwcaton Lookin' for abs ! Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: central missouri Posts: 9,271 Photos: 28	dfauteux http://ironmagazineforums.com/showpo...32&postcount=2
	My Last Journal Before The One You're Reading Now Old Journals : My P/RR/S Journal My GWcaton Journal My Bulking Journal Just remember, when you think you're done you've just started . DEADBOLT . 2005

06-17-2005, 09:41 PM	#23
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76	That looks good for a body part with 3 sets, but what do you do no leg day when leg day has like 6 exercises?
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76

06-17-2005, 11:21 PM	#27
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76	Doh! I feel dumb now I didnt even think about legs being split up into 2 different bodyparts, sorry. But thank you for the answers.
dfauteux Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 76