fighting shape...what do i need to train most?

TJ Cline · 08-04-2005, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Well think about it: you can kick someone for about a foot longer of a range than he can punch you from. If you can actually kick fast, it's much more powerful. IMO, people who try to kick usually don't really know how to. I'd rather get one free kick to someone's abdomen than one free punch. Kicks can knock you down with sheer force, something rare for a punch. Obviously you have to know how to do it (someone who can't punch is gonna get beaten just the same as someone who can't kick) and do it at the right time (it's not like I wouldn't punch someone; kicking is just more effective if each is in an ideal situation).

Nice Hollywood theory but a good boxer will always destroy a great kick boxer
....thats why kick boxing requires you to kick a certain amount every round.

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 01:17 AM

It's no "Hollywood theory." Your legs are much stronger than your arms. Why not use them? Besides, you're talking about actual sports. Those aren't fights to the death. If I were fighting for my life, you bet I'd be kicking and punching, not just standing there boxing someone.

TJ Cline · 08-04-2005, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

It's no "Hollywood theory." Your legs are much stronger than your arms. Why not use them? Besides, you're talking about actual sports. Those aren't fights to the death. If I were fighting for my life, you bet I'd be kicking and punching, not just standing there boxing someone.

Ever wonder why kick boxers never make it as true Boxers?????
The movies and the spin of martial arts is cool..................but a good boxer and a good wrestler will kick the shit out of any style martial artist....9x out of 10

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 01:23 AM

So you're saying that someone trained in the art of fighting, who knows pressure points, the weaknesses and strong points of the body, and how best to implement them, would lose to someone who can simply punch? Something about that seems strange to me...

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 01:32 AM

Why would he be kicking if he were a boxer?

From what data are you basing this fact? How could someone trained to kill lose to someone trained to punch? Seriously, it's like saying an army Ranger would lose to an average soldier. Sure, the soldier has basic training, but the Ranger's training is much more specific and deadly.

TJ Cline · 08-04-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Why would he be kicking if he were a boxer?

From what data are you basing this fact? How could someone trained to kill lose to someone trained to punch? Seriously, it's like saying an army Ranger would lose to an average soldier. Sure, the soldier has basic training, but the Ranger's training is much more specific and deadly.

Grow up..................van Dam and his ilk are pussy's!
name a great martial artist.....list his weight and I will name a great boxer who would destroy him in 20 seconds in a street fight....

let me guess Bruce Lee is your only champ............................................. .................................................. ............................and he is.

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 01:45 AM

Why are you mentioning movie stars? What do they have anything to do with this conversation? I never said anything about movie stars or Hollywood... that was all you. I'm talking about a professional martial artist who takes his work seriously. You're talking about fake movie stars. If you really think that someone who could only punch in a fight could beat someone who had no limit as to what he could do, something's wrong with your logic. Punches, kicks, holds, pressure points, they're all real, not something from a movie. I'd rather know how to do all of those than just punch. I think you might be surprised how effective things other than punching are. Do you have any reasoning behind your 'boxers kick ass' theory, or do you just hate karate movie stars?

TJ Cline · 08-04-2005, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Why are you mentioning movie stars? What do they have anything to do with this conversation? I never said anything about movie stars or Hollywood... that was all you. I'm talking about a professional martial artist who takes his work seriously. You're talking about fake movie stars. If you really think that someone who could only punch in a fight could beat someone who had no limit as to what he could do, something's wrong with your logic. Punches, kicks, holds, pressure points, they're all real, not something from a movie. I'd rather know how to do all of those than just punch. I think you might be surprised how effective things other than punching are. Do you have any reasoning behind your 'boxers kick ass' theory, or do you just hate karate movie stars?

Bruce Lee was a movie star.....................and the Ali of martial arts

Martial arts can aid your fighting style but...................thats it.
They can train hard for years..............................but a good boxer and/or wrestler will kill them moist of the time.............................have you ever read Bruce Lee's book ???

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 01:57 AM

That still doesn't answer the question. You basically told me that you'd learn martial arts to win a fight. Why would a boxer win? The question is as clear as I can make it. He can punch. A martial artist can do this as well, along with many other, more deadly things. Explain your reasoning.

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 02:01 AM

Wow. I'm sorry I ever tried having an intelligent conversation with you. And they say our youth is sad...

TJ Cline · 08-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Wow. I'm sorry I ever tried having an intelligent conversation with you. And they say our youth is sad...

ABLQ2 · 08-04-2005, 02:45 AM

ill preface this by saying i have acheieved a black belt in martial arts...

martial arts are shit. boxing is where its at if you want to fight.

i have to agree with foreman on this. think about it. have you ever watched mike tyson fight? or george foreman?or butterbean? if you have, im sure you would agree.

kicks arent pratical because they leave you with a small center of gravity and they leave you open for more attacks. if someone kicked at me, id grab their leg, pull them down and hit them in the face. also think about it this way.. a fist is smaller than a foot, so even though its less shear force, its moving quicker and a smaller point of impact=more likely to do more damage.

i feel very strongly that an angry mike tyson could beat the shit out of any martial artist you throw at him.

and oh ya.. i bet Iron Mike can punch harder than you can kick.

Adamjs · 08-04-2005, 04:51 AM

Ok - may as well add my two (2) cents worth...I love a good fight.

If we're talking street fighting - you need to be able to punch, fight (aka duck, weave, take a hit, etc) and wrestle (aka judo or roman wrestling - not the WWE stuff). Punching alone won't win you a fight as all fights turn into a wrestle sooner or later.

And FR is right - kicking is useless in a fight unless you're in a martial arts competition.

Punching with a boxer mentality will also be useless in a street fight because boxers are used to gloves and head punches - but a head punch without a glove will leave you with broken bones all over the shop. Emergency wards are full of people who have supposedly "won" fights because they drew blood by hitting some guy in the lips and making his lip bleed. If you're going to do any head punch you need make it a hook so it's a glancing blow to the jaw to knock him out cold and do as little damage to your own hand as possible.

Also you need to let the guy wear himself out first - most people have no idea how to fight and throw all of these wild punches in a fit half of which don't connect and are worn out in thirty (30) seconds. So you block most of his blows, step aside of them, and then come in at the end and either throw him to the ground or punch the hell out of his worn out self.

So to answer your question:
1. You should train to fight to win fights (not just train to box or train to kick box);
2. You should train to wrestle;
3. You should be fit enough to outlast your opponent - he will go for 30 seconds of fury so you need to be able to avoid his 30 seconds of fury and then unleash a minute of your fury on him; and
4. As far as weights go - a good core and the right technique should be all you need.

Now go forth and fight daniel son....and remember wax-on, wax-off...

Adamjs · 08-04-2005, 04:55 AM

Also - as for style if we're talking actual fighting - look at old school ultimate fighting (before they had to change the rules to make it an actual competition so the same guys didn't always win) and tell me which style is best.

Gaz_9 · 08-04-2005, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonev16

I want to know what body parts key in most with a fist fight, I have basic fist fighting experience.....havent ever fought anyone to much bigger then me.....just curious maybe u have routine suggestions on how to get into this shape....maybe all this lifting weights is addin more testosterone then i need but i feel like beeting the sh*t out of the next person to mess with me.....i dunno i kinda want to go into overkill on them.how would i get into this shape....maybe this is a stupid post but I'm bored n i want tips. any help would be greatly appreciated.

come down my gym and ill lay you out within 30sec's! you'll never be a good fighter unless you change your mentality my friend! to be a good boxer you need to be calm and focused not all pent up.

The Monkey Man · 08-04-2005, 05:43 AM

When I was training boxing, there was only one time where I thought of getting into
it with anyone.

I was at a club with my GF & some of her friends, some dirty old rich guy was drunk and wouldn't leave them alone...

I told to him to get lost, and this immobile juiced up bouncer
comes to the old guys defense
(I guess he spent a lot of money in there)

So of course the living MUSCLEHEDZ has got like 30 puonds on me.
We were in a mildly crowded area
(so no martial arts kicks could be thrown here)

In the split second it took to let my adrenaline spike, I had visualized 5 different ways to hit him, he would have been destroyed

Before I could demolish the human bicep, the thing was broken up by the owner, who knew me, and was friends with my old boxing coach

Then some time later I was talking to one of the other bouncers
@ the gym (where @ the time I was teaching boxing for teens), and he said they were all making fun of this guy after that,
telling him - "you would've got your ass kicked"

That gave me a warm fuzzy -

PTYP · 08-04-2005, 08:02 AM

Ive watched fighting (boxing, UFC, K1, kickboxing, etc.) for sometime now, and I have 2 words for all of you.

Hoyce Gracie.

Bottom line, if you can take a punch, kick, or anything else your opponent throws at you; put him on the ground and hold a pressure point, you will win.

The Monkey Man · 08-04-2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTYP

Bottom line, if you can take a punch, kick, or anything else your opponent throws at you; put him on the ground and hold a pressure point, you will win.

Yeah but the average juiced up BB, is the opposite of all this
they are usually unflexible and slow.

I would be more afraid to mess with a beer bellied biker type

PTYP · 08-04-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Man

Yeah but the average juiced up BB, is the opposite of all this
they are usually unflexible and slow.

I would be more afraid to mess with a beer bellied biker type

Very true.

But personally, I wouldnt mess with Coleman in a dark alley. The shear size would scare the shit out of me.

The Monkey Man · 08-04-2005, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTYP

Very true.

But personally, I wouldnt mess with Coleman in a dark alley. The shear size would scare the shit out of me.

I said "average" BB -

PTYP · 08-04-2005, 09:14 AM

Yanick · 08-04-2005, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTYP

Ive watched fighting (boxing, UFC, K1, kickboxing, etc.) for sometime now, and I have 2 words for all of you.

Hoyce Gracie.

Bottom line, if you can take a punch, kick, or anything else your opponent throws at you; put him on the ground and hold a pressure point, you will win.

Royce Gracie, all they're names start with an R something about strength in that letter or someshit (Royler, Ryan etc)

you gotta understand that to utilize BJJ in a street fight you have to commit to the fight completely. Noone's gonna tap out in a fight you'll have to actually break a limb or something to end it because as soon as you let go of of the arm bar or w/e you're gonna catch a fist to the mouth. i personally don't know if i'd be able to just break someone's arm like that, guess if i'm angry enough. also pure strength can win you a fight, especially if it gets to grappling. me and my bro always fuck around and wrestle and shit, he has wrestling experience and i don't and we are about the same weight. so when it comes to technique i get my ass whipped but there are situations where my strength would just demolish him in a real fight, i mean can literally pick him up from the floor while he is in the middle of trying to arm bar me or something from that position i can just slam his head into the ground which will end the fight pretty quickly on the street.

bottom line to be a well rounded fighter you really need a combination of everything...but we're talking street fights so go take an MMA class for a month and you'll beat the shit out of 90% of the guys on the street cause frankly people don't know how to fight, they just start throwing hay makers and shit without any thought or strategy.

**CowPimp** · 08-04-2005, 01:15 PM

I would say quick jabs are probably tricep strength because you move the rest of your body very little.

However, I would say punches with a little more power are lower body and core strength. Your lower body and hips transfer a lot of power via your core to rotate your torso with more speed.

Also, you're going to want to train for power and speed, not just strength.

The Monkey Man · 08-04-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I would say quick jabs are probably tricep strength because you move the rest of your body very little

The jab uses the whole body
because a true jab causes you to extend your shoulder forward
(protecting the chin)
and rotate the hip into it, to back up the power

If you throw a jab without rotating or extending, you lose like
8 inches or more, of reach?!

The perfect jab is like snapping a bullwhip...

The power builds from the base where it is large,
it transfers all the way down to the thinner end,
where that large amount of
power is focused into a smaller area
until !!CRACK!!

**CowPimp** · 08-04-2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Man

The jab uses the whole body
because a true jab causes you to extend your shoulder forward
(protecting the chin)
and rotate the hip into it, to back up the power

If you throw a jab without rotating or extending, you lose like
8 inches or more, of reach?!

The perfect jab is like snapping a bullwhip...

The power builds from the base where it is large,
it transfers all the way down to the thinner end,
where that large amount of
power is focused into a smaller area
until !!CRACK!!

Makes sense. I was kind of just speculating. I don't really know too much about fighting; I should have made this clear.

Squaggleboggin · 08-04-2005, 05:31 PM

I don't either. I was just sort of looking for a reason as to why kicks wouldn't be good. I realize that someone can grab your leg, but when I took Tae Kwon Do (or however you spell it) for a short time, one of the first things they taught me was to kick fast and pull your leg back faster. I figured that a professional martial artist would actually have this mastered. I've always wanted to get into a fight just to see what it's like and know my own weaknesses, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

08-04-2005, 01:17 AM	#32
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	It's no "Hollywood theory." Your legs are much stronger than your arms. Why not use them? Besides, you're talking about actual sports. Those aren't fights to the death. If I were fighting for my life, you bet I'd be kicking and punching, not just standing there boxing someone.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 01:23 AM	#34
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	So you're saying that someone trained in the art of fighting, who knows pressure points, the weaknesses and strong points of the body, and how best to implement them, would lose to someone who can simply punch? Something about that seems strange to me...
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 01:32 AM	#35
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Why would he be kicking if he were a boxer? From what data are you basing this fact? How could someone trained to kill lose to someone trained to punch? Seriously, it's like saying an army Ranger would lose to an average soldier. Sure, the soldier has basic training, but the Ranger's training is much more specific and deadly.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 01:45 AM	#37
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Why are you mentioning movie stars? What do they have anything to do with this conversation? I never said anything about movie stars or Hollywood... that was all you. I'm talking about a professional martial artist who takes his work seriously. You're talking about fake movie stars. If you really think that someone who could only punch in a fight could beat someone who had no limit as to what he could do, something's wrong with your logic. Punches, kicks, holds, pressure points, they're all real, not something from a movie. I'd rather know how to do all of those than just punch. I think you might be surprised how effective things other than punching are. Do you have any reasoning behind your 'boxers kick ass' theory, or do you just hate karate movie stars?
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 01:57 AM	#39
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	That still doesn't answer the question. You basically told me that you'd learn martial arts to win a fight. Why would a boxer win? The question is as clear as I can make it. He can punch. A martial artist can do this as well, along with many other, more deadly things. Explain your reasoning.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 02:01 AM	#40
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Wow. I'm sorry I ever tried having an intelligent conversation with you. And they say our youth is sad...
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 02:45 AM	#42
ABLQ2 Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Frieburg Posts: 437 Photos: 1	ill preface this by saying i have acheieved a black belt in martial arts... martial arts are shit. boxing is where its at if you want to fight. i have to agree with foreman on this. think about it. have you ever watched mike tyson fight? or george foreman?or butterbean? if you have, im sure you would agree. kicks arent pratical because they leave you with a small center of gravity and they leave you open for more attacks. if someone kicked at me, id grab their leg, pull them down and hit them in the face. also think about it this way.. a fist is smaller than a foot, so even though its less shear force, its moving quicker and a smaller point of impact=more likely to do more damage. i feel very strongly that an angry mike tyson could beat the shit out of any martial artist you throw at him. and oh ya.. i bet Iron Mike can punch harder than you can kick.

08-04-2005, 04:51 AM	#43
Adamjs Adamjs Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 264	Ok - may as well add my two (2) cents worth...I love a good fight. If we're talking street fighting - you need to be able to punch, fight (aka duck, weave, take a hit, etc) and wrestle (aka judo or roman wrestling - not the WWE stuff). Punching alone won't win you a fight as all fights turn into a wrestle sooner or later. And FR is right - kicking is useless in a fight unless you're in a martial arts competition. Punching with a boxer mentality will also be useless in a street fight because boxers are used to gloves and head punches - but a head punch without a glove will leave you with broken bones all over the shop. Emergency wards are full of people who have supposedly "won" fights because they drew blood by hitting some guy in the lips and making his lip bleed. If you're going to do any head punch you need make it a hook so it's a glancing blow to the jaw to knock him out cold and do as little damage to your own hand as possible. Also you need to let the guy wear himself out first - most people have no idea how to fight and throw all of these wild punches in a fit half of which don't connect and are worn out in thirty (30) seconds. So you block most of his blows, step aside of them, and then come in at the end and either throw him to the ground or punch the hell out of his worn out self. So to answer your question: 1. You should train to fight to win fights (not just train to box or train to kick box); 2. You should train to wrestle; 3. You should be fit enough to outlast your opponent - he will go for 30 seconds of fury so you need to be able to avoid his 30 seconds of fury and then unleash a minute of your fury on him; and 4. As far as weights go - a good core and the right technique should be all you need. Now go forth and fight daniel son....and remember wax-on, wax-off...
	____________________________________________ Restless soul, enjoy your youth. Like Muhammad. Hits the truth. Can't escape from the common rule - if you hate something don't you do it too.

08-04-2005, 04:55 AM	#44
Adamjs Adamjs Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 264	Also - as for style if we're talking actual fighting - look at old school ultimate fighting (before they had to change the rules to make it an actual competition so the same guys didn't always win) and tell me which style is best.
	____________________________________________ Restless soul, enjoy your youth. Like Muhammad. Hits the truth. Can't escape from the common rule - if you hate something don't you do it too.

08-04-2005, 05:43 AM	#46
The Monkey Man Magical Apelikemenace Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 13,788 Photos: 35	When I was training boxing, there was only one time where I thought of getting into it with anyone. I was at a club with my GF & some of her friends, some dirty old rich guy was drunk and wouldn't leave them alone... I told to him to get lost, and this immobile juiced up bouncer comes to the old guys defense (I guess he spent a lot of money in there) So of course the living MUSCLEHEDZ has got like 30 puonds on me. We were in a mildly crowded area (so no martial arts kicks could be thrown here) In the split second it took to let my adrenaline spike, I had visualized 5 different ways to hit him, he would have been destroyed Before I could demolish the human bicep, the thing was broken up by the owner, who knew me, and was friends with my old boxing coach Then some time later I was talking to one of the other bouncers @ the gym (where @ the time I was teaching boxing for teens), and he said they were all making fun of this guy after that, telling him - "you would've got your ass kicked" That gave me a warm fuzzy - Last edited by The Monkey Man : 08-04-2005 at 08:05 AM.
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08-04-2005, 08:02 AM	#47
PTYP In the squat rack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 249 Photos: 6	Ive watched fighting (boxing, UFC, K1, kickboxing, etc.) for sometime now, and I have 2 words for all of you. Hoyce Gracie. Bottom line, if you can take a punch, kick, or anything else your opponent throws at you; put him on the ground and hold a pressure point, you will win.

08-04-2005, 09:14 AM	#51
PTYP In the squat rack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 249 Photos: 6	Doh!

08-04-2005, 01:15 PM	#53
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	I would say quick jabs are probably tricep strength because you move the rest of your body very little. However, I would say punches with a little more power are lower body and core strength. Your lower body and hips transfer a lot of power via your core to rotate your torso with more speed. Also, you're going to want to train for power and speed, not just strength.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

08-04-2005, 05:31 PM	#56
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	I don't either. I was just sort of looking for a reason as to why kicks wouldn't be good. I realize that someone can grab your leg, but when I took Tae Kwon Do (or however you spell it) for a short time, one of the first things they taught me was to kick fast and pull your leg back faster. I figured that a professional martial artist would actually have this mastered. I've always wanted to get into a fight just to see what it's like and know my own weaknesses, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

08-04-2005, 05:56 PM	#57
The Monkey Man Magical Apelikemenace Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 13,788 Photos: 35