Squat Machine vs. Free weights 1RM?

splach · 10-12-2005, 06:07 PM

Hey all,

I am without a lifting partner and I have had problems with my knees in the past so I prefer using a Leverage squat machine instead of a bar (similar to the one in the pic, but it has a slightly different base and a much heavier sled - I would guess around 75 - 100lbs).

Anyway it has been years since I have done anything close to a 1RM on a squat because I am always worried about my knees but on the machine I was able to get up a lot more weight than I expected. I guess the question I had is how much easier is it on a machine than with free weights? Anyone every compare their 1RM on the two?

I wound up being able to get out 2x8 reps, 1x6 reps, and 1x4 reps with 5x45lbs, 1x25lbs on each side. That was after quite a few sets working up to this weight trying to find something that felt heavy. Closest I can figure with the sled is about 550 - 600lbs.

Given my bench 1RM of 290 does that seem like a reasonable squat weight to be doing?

Last question. Even with the big pads on the squat machine I came away with long narrow bruises running side to side on my shoulders. Is that normal for heavy squats on a machine (I am almost thinking it was where my shirt was wrinkled or something)?

Thanks,
Casey

**CowPimp** · 10-12-2005, 10:43 PM

You will definitely be able to do more with that machine that if you were to actually squat the weight. Hell, if I go from seated to standing DB presses I lose some ability to move weight.

Also, you do realize that squatting is often good for knee problems, don't ya?

Devlin · 10-12-2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

You will definitely be able to do more with that machine that if you were to actually squat the weight. Hell, if I go from seated to standing DB presses I lose some ability to move weight.

Why is that? Does it have something to do with balance and your core strength?

Cowpimp what are your opinions about the Free Motion squat versus free squat? I noticed I can squat a hell of a lot more using the Free Motion squat machine than I can with free weights. To me it seemed I was forced to use more of my core to maintain balance and to keep the bar even as the weight increased.

Also, you do realize that squatting is often good for knee problems, don't ya?

I agree and disagree with that. Squats can help with knee problems, but if you do too many or with too much weight it could hurt knee problems.

**CowPimp** · 10-12-2005, 11:03 PM

I have never understood the purpose behind some machines, besides making money. The one you mention would be an example. The machine is trying to mimic a freeweight squat... Why don't you just do the real deal?

Machines that mimic freeweight movements are retarded, unless we are talking physical therapy. There is a reason it tries to mimic the freeweight movment; because the freeweight movement is superior.

Devlin · 10-12-2005, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I have never understood the purpose behind some machines, besides making money. The one you mention would be an example. The machine is trying to mimic a freeweight squat... Why don't you just do the real deal?

Machines that mimic freeweight movements are retarded, unless we are talking physical therapy. There is a reason it tries to mimic the freeweight movment; because the freeweight movement is superior.

When I started lifting, I did have a weak knee so that machine did help me to build the knee up. I know do freeweight squats. Actually, did them 2 days ago and quads are hurting pretty good, but then I also did weighted lunges too.

Originally Posted by CowPimp
"You will definitely be able to do more with that machine that if you were to actually squat the weight. Hell, if I go from seated to standing DB presses I lose some ability to move weight."

Why is that? Does it have something to do with balance and your core strength?

**CowPimp** · 10-12-2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devlin

Why is that? Does it have something to do with balance and your core strength?

Yes, it would seem so. Think of going from BB bench press to DB bench press. I guarantee the weight you move with the DBs will be short of that for the BB press.

LAM · 10-13-2005, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I have never understood the purpose behind some machines, besides making money. The one you mention would be an example. The machine is trying to mimic a freeweight squat... Why don't you just do the real deal?

I used to think the same thing until I used one. they are awesome for training to failure when focusing on the eccentric portion of the lift, which is virtually impossible to do with back squats.

Squaggleboggin · 10-13-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devlin

I agree and disagree with that. Squats can help with knee problems, but if you do too many or with too much weight it could hurt knee problems.

If you do any movement too many times or with too much weight, it will become a negative thing, and the same goes for machines.

I would also have to agree that machines can be a good thing for focusing on a particular muscle, which you can't do with free weights as much for certain exercises. However, for any kind of strength athlete, I would definitely recommend using as much free weights as possible, including doing DBs over a BB for benching. No one seems to realize that just because you can do more weight with the BB doesn't mean you get a better workout.

**CowPimp** · 10-13-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

I used to think the same thing until I used one. they are awesome for training to failure when focusing on the eccentric portion of the lift, which is virtually impossible to do with back squats.

How is it impossible with squats? Sometimes my squat sets end in what is basically a static hold at my weak point in the lift followed by a long eccentric movement when I am training to total failure. I simply don't stop pushing until I hit the rack or I'm a couple inches short of that...

LAM · 10-13-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

How is it impossible with squats? Sometimes my squat sets end in what is basically a static hold at my weak point in the lift followed by a long eccentric movement when I am training to total failure. I simply don't stop pushing until I hit the rack or I'm a couple inches short of that...

I'm talking about heavy eccentric training (85-95% 1RM). use a tempo of 6-1-2 and perform about 15-20 reps and tell me how good your squat form was

**CowPimp** · 10-13-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

I'm talking about heavy eccentric training (85-95% 1RM). use a tempo of 6-1-2 and perform about 15-20 reps and tell me how good your squat form was

That sounds brutal, but probably highly effective at spawning some serious hypertorphy. Nonetheless, that is a pretty specific application of such a machine. In general, I would still prefer to stick to the real deal. I have a feeling this fellow wasn't performing such training.

**CowPimp** · 10-13-2005, 01:58 PM

Oh, and just out of curiosity, how do you eek out 15-20 repetitions at that intensity level? Is there some kind of self-spot mechanism on the machine that will allow you to get back at the point of the movement where it changes from concentric to eccentric? It sounds like something I might try one day for the Hell of it. I've never really tried eccentric training at that level.

Devlin · 10-13-2005, 02:08 PM

http://www.iconfitness.com/cgi-bin/n...cgrfnbr=116031

If that link doesn't work go to www.freemotion.com , selectorized and the squat machine I posted is listed there with its specs.

splach · 10-14-2005, 12:02 PM

Cowpimp: You asked "Why don't you just do the real deal?"

I do the real deal. The reason I was using this machine was because:

1. I do not currently have a workout trainer or a spotter
2. I haven't had a problem with my knees in several years, but I like the hard stop available on the machine in case my knee decided to pop. I am not comfortable putting more than 300 or so on the bar without a spotter.

Mostly I was just surprised by the amount of weight I could use on this thing. I expected doing sets at 450 or so,

**CowPimp** · 10-14-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splach

Cowpimp: You asked "Why don't you just do the real deal?"

I do the real deal. The reason I was using this machine was because:

1. I do not currently have a workout trainer or a spotter
2. I haven't had a problem with my knees in several years, but I like the hard stop available on the machine in case my knee decided to pop. I am not comfortable putting more than 300 or so on the bar without a spotter.

Mostly I was just surprised by the amount of weight I could use on this thing. I expected doing sets at 450 or so,

Your gym doesn't have a squat rack?

splach · 10-14-2005, 01:09 PM

Yeah Cowpimp. Weird huh? Actually there must be one there somewhere but I just joined and the place is a big multi-room garage like space (10,000 sq ft) with lots of random equipment (also explains why it's only $200 a year).

So far I have found couple smiths and a couple squat racks (without rails).

Hmmm. Actually are the rails usually removable? Maybe they are sitting around in there somewhere. The leverage squat machine was right next to the leg press sled so there were plenty of plates around and it seemed like a good place to start.

Splach

**CowPimp** · 10-14-2005, 01:12 PM

Yeah, if it uses rails, then they are removable. I can't see the point of them just having a cage to lift in. The rails have to be around somewhere. There are also non-adjustable racks, which is what I am stuck with for them time being.

10-12-2005, 10:43 PM	#2
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	You will definitely be able to do more with that machine that if you were to actually squat the weight. Hell, if I go from seated to standing DB presses I lose some ability to move weight. Also, you do realize that squatting is often good for knee problems, don't ya?
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

10-12-2005, 11:03 PM	#4
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	I have never understood the purpose behind some machines, besides making money. The one you mention would be an example. The machine is trying to mimic a freeweight squat... Why don't you just do the real deal? Machines that mimic freeweight movements are retarded, unless we are talking physical therapy. There is a reason it tries to mimic the freeweight movment; because the freeweight movement is superior.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

10-13-2005, 01:58 PM	#12
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Oh, and just out of curiosity, how do you eek out 15-20 repetitions at that intensity level? Is there some kind of self-spot mechanism on the machine that will allow you to get back at the point of the movement where it changes from concentric to eccentric? It sounds like something I might try one day for the Hell of it. I've never really tried eccentric training at that level.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

10-14-2005, 12:02 PM	#14
splach Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 22	Cowpimp: You asked "Why don't you just do the real deal?" I do the real deal. The reason I was using this machine was because: 1. I do not currently have a workout trainer or a spotter 2. I haven't had a problem with my knees in several years, but I like the hard stop available on the machine in case my knee decided to pop. I am not comfortable putting more than 300 or so on the bar without a spotter. Mostly I was just surprised by the amount of weight I could use on this thing. I expected doing sets at 450 or so,
splach Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 22

10-14-2005, 01:09 PM	#16
splach Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 22	Yeah Cowpimp. Weird huh? Actually there must be one there somewhere but I just joined and the place is a big multi-room garage like space (10,000 sq ft) with lots of random equipment (also explains why it's only $200 a year). So far I have found couple smiths and a couple squat racks (without rails). Hmmm. Actually are the rails usually removable? Maybe they are sitting around in there somewhere. The leverage squat machine was right next to the leg press sled so there were plenty of plates around and it seemed like a good place to start. Splach
splach Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 22

10-13-2005, 02:08 PM	#13
Devlin Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: KY Posts: 3,278 Photos: 27	http://www.iconfitness.com/cgi-bin/n...cgrfnbr=116031 If that link doesn't work go to www.freemotion.com , selectorized and the squat machine I posted is listed there with its specs.

10-14-2005, 01:12 PM	#17
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Yeah, if it uses rails, then they are removable. I can't see the point of them just having a cage to lift in. The rails have to be around somewhere. There are also non-adjustable racks, which is what I am stuck with for them time being.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

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