Interesting read

**CowPimp** · 10-21-2005, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

So as an example you might do bench press on Monday 1 set only,
then on Wednesday 1 set of DB incline press and finally on Friday 1 set of decline press......and thats it for chest????
Or am I misunderstanding??

I do have a friend in Chicago who only does 2 total body workouts 2 times a week...........about 4 sets per muscle....very high intensity...
I actually trained with him using this workout back in 1998......

Sort of. I do 1 movement for the legs, 1 pushing movement, and 1 pulling movement. I also typically throw in a movement for core musculature, and maybe a total body movement and/or grip work. I alternate between vertical and horizontal planes of motion and leg exercises that focus on knee extension and hip extension.

For example, it might be bench press Monday, overhead pressing Wednesday, and decline pressing on Friday. Next week would be DB overhead pressing, DB bench press, and 45 degree incline press.

camarosuper6 · 11-28-2005, 03:35 PM

Mike (Duncan) still keeps his volume low and intensity high. He still does the same split (M/W/F), one bp a week and still has an insane squat... (I think he uses like 440 for 16 or something)... but his legs are not that large.. you wouldnt think he could use as much weight as he does.

Both of us have been conversing lately because we have both stagnated in our respective workout programs.

Duncans Donuts · 11-28-2005, 03:56 PM

Later in my "wisdom phase" of IM, I decided quite adrently that HIT was not the end all solution. I promoted CHANGE OF VARIABLES - time under tension, rep cadence, exercises, exercise order, time between exercises, use of exceptional modifications (super sets, half reps, negatives), hand position, et al. I have always done low volume (now I'm at 2 sets of 5 exercises) - but during certain phases (the Johnson coined "Blitz") I go to the opposite end of the spectrum. Such that I do high volume, high reps, lower pauses, and more extraneous techniques to draw up a temporary imposition on my body. Of course I only do that for maybe a week, in which I'll work out every day - all in a row.

It's not fun and it's very draining, I'm convinced doing it for longer than 10 days would probably blow your mind.

Of course, fitting HIT into this scheme is very easy, but it has to be done cautiously. I made great strides in my gains on HIT but I figured out eventually that change is the most important factor in maintaining positive results.

And, on the topic, I think I have pretty big legs. Since I've been doing bottom-pause squats (the pause is in the BOTTOM segment of the squat) my quad size has gone to nearly 30 inches. I work out with 345 for 12 doing this. I can squat "regular style" much better and lower because of this technique.

Beginners, HIT is probably the best, in my opinion. HIT in it's strictest form for intermediates and above should be utilized on a temporary basis (BUT NOT DISCARDED!) That would be my personal recommendation. I really consider what I do now a logical progression of HIT, where the volume is low but the relative imposition & intensity on the body is always high - thanks to the changing variables. So technically I consider myself a HIT advocate; but it is certainly not a traditional Mentzer HIT.

My 2 cents

soxmuscle · 11-28-2005, 04:16 PM

wow is it good to have you back...

Gardon · 11-28-2005, 08:18 PM

So when you say lift till failure...

does that mean doing 3-6 reps until you drop, or doing a managable weight numerous times?

camarosuper6 · 11-28-2005, 08:20 PM

Failure means until you can no longer perform a repitition in proper form. Basically, until you drop (but hopefully not literally)

**Dale Mabry** · 11-28-2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camarosuper6

Failure means until you can no longer perform a repitition in proper form. Basically, until you drop (but hopefully not literally)

For some it should be literally.

Gardon · 11-28-2005, 08:27 PM

No, but I meant to achieve failure, do you do a moderate weight (say 80 percent of your max) for 8 reps, or do something almost to your max (say 90 percent) for 3-6 reps?

How does this system work as far as how much you're supposed to lift?

Gardon · 11-28-2005, 08:27 PM

By the way dale, I love your bash.org quote

**Dale Mabry** · 11-28-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxmuscle

wow is it good to have you back...

Yes.

**P-funk** · 11-28-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Yes.

Gardon · 11-28-2005, 08:33 PM

No seriously. If I wanted to lift till failure, what percentage of my max should I do?

Do I want to fail at 3 reps, or 11 reps?

**P-funk** · 11-28-2005, 08:35 PM

depends on what intensity level you are failing at.

also, to lift you failure for something like say, squats. You could try and take your 10RM and squat it as many times as possible using the rest pause method of standing there for as long as it takes between reps until you totally fail. Also a lot of fun.

camarosuper6 · 11-28-2005, 08:35 PM

Imma tell his ass to get on here more often. Weve been having some interesting converstations about adapting a new workout scheme. We have both hit plateaus and ironically (or maybe not-so) we have both hit plateaued using almost the same weights in all our exercises ( with a few minor exceptions).

Gardon · 11-28-2005, 08:37 PM

Doesn't strength building come from low reps? Like 3 reps?

Or does that only deal with multiple sets?

**P-funk** · 11-28-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardon

Doesn't strength building come from low reps? Like 3 reps?

Or does that only deal with multiple sets?

depends on what kind of strength you are talking about. One could build a good amoun of strength squating for 10 reps or even 20 reps. One could also build a lot of strength squating for 1 rep or 3 reps. Maximal strength and repetition strength, although will have some carry over, don't carry over completely. My squat past 3 reps sucks ass because my endurance is shit. But for 1-3 reps I am pretty good so my 10RM doesn't really reflect my 1RM. Does that make sense?

Gardon · 11-28-2005, 08:49 PM

Ya.

So if I was speed training elsewhere (for martial arts), I could focus on the 1-3 rep sets in the gym to build overall strength?

Or should I include endurance in the overall thing so I can help both worlds?

camarosuper6 · 11-28-2005, 08:50 PM

I think it has a lot to do with the SAID principle and neuro-efficiency.

**CowPimp** · 11-28-2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardon

Ya.

So if I was speed training elsewhere (for martial arts), I could focus on the 1-3 rep sets in the gym to build overall strength?

Or should I include endurance in the overall thing so I can help both worlds?

You can't just lift at 90% or greater intensity all the time. You will kill your CNS like that. Take Westside for example. You perform 2 lifts per week at that intensity; one is geared toward improving your squat/deadlift numbers and one is geared toward improving your bench press numbers. On top of that, you are supposed to perform slightly different exercises each week to prevent CNS overtraining.

When you say overall strength are you talking relative strength, absolute strength, strength endurance, or what?

Gardon · 11-29-2005, 08:05 PM

What does CNS mean?

I'm not trying to bench 800 pounds, however, I want to increase my strength for hitting and the length I can hit for.

At the moment, I'm not SO worried about strength endurance, but it would certainly help. I'm really trying to get to the "explosiveness" that strength gives you, such as throwing a punch or a kick.

What should I do?

**P-funk** · 11-29-2005, 08:07 PM

CNS= central nervous system

Gardon · 11-29-2005, 08:15 PM

So what does he mean "kill it?" Does that mean I will permanently damage myself, or just become overly exhausted?

**P-funk** · 11-29-2005, 08:19 PM

They don't mean kill it like kill it. They mean you will enter into an overtrained state in which the CNS is permanatly overstressed and unable to recover from workouts which will lead to other problems such as....getting sick, training injuries, overly tired, interest in training decreases, loss of strength, increased resting heart rate, etc.....The CNS is sensitive to the training environment you place it in. You train, it adapts, you train more, it adapts more. After awhile, if you don't give it a break it stops being able to adapt. This is why people do things like periodize (among other reasons), take a week off after a certain amount of training (say a week off every 6-8 weeks) or perform an light unloading week of active rest after a bout of training (again, say every 6-8 weeks).

**CowPimp** · 11-29-2005, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardon

What does CNS mean?

I'm not trying to bench 800 pounds, however, I want to increase my strength for hitting and the length I can hit for.

At the moment, I'm not SO worried about strength endurance, but it would certainly help. I'm really trying to get to the "explosiveness" that strength gives you, such as throwing a punch or a kick.

What should I do?

This explosiveness you speak of is power. Basically, the ability to generate force quickly against resistance; if you prefer the classical physics defintion, then it is the amount of work you perform (mass x displacement) per unit of time.

Olympic lifts, speed training, and plyometrics would be the optimal way of achieving this form of strength. Also, consequently, increasing muscular strength will also generally enhance your ability to quickly generate force. You should consider an olympic lifting or powerlifting routine.

Gardon · 11-29-2005, 09:13 PM

Is there any sites/etc. that can guide me on this?

**CowPimp** · 11-29-2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardon

Is there any sites/etc. that can guide me on this?

I have to go clean up around the gym now. When I get home in about an hour I'll try to remember to post some links on Westside for you, my favorite powerlifting routine that includes maximal effort (Strength) and dynamic effort (Speed/power) training.

**CowPimp** · 11-29-2005, 10:29 PM

Honestly, I don't know too much about olympic lifting programs. There are a few journals of people doing them that you can check out for ideas though (P-funk, MonkeyMan, Jodi, GoalGetter).

Here are some links to put together a Westside routine:

http://www.elitefts.com/
Just sift around. There is a lot there. Dave Tate and Jim Wendler know what works and practice what they preach.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459806 - Part I
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459671 - Part II
This is a two part article about conjugate periodization, which is the scheme used by Westside. It provides a template for designing a routine properly.

http://www.westside-barbell.com/
The official site of the gym where the routine came from.

Gardon · 11-29-2005, 11:56 PM

Wow, you're true to your word.

Thank you kindly, sir

Gardon

11-28-2005, 03:35 PM	#32
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	Mike (Duncan) still keeps his volume low and intensity high. He still does the same split (M/W/F), one bp a week and still has an insane squat... (I think he uses like 440 for 16 or something)... but his legs are not that large.. you wouldnt think he could use as much weight as he does. Both of us have been conversing lately because we have both stagnated in our respective workout programs.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

11-28-2005, 03:56 PM	#33
Duncans Donuts Stay puffed, baby. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: CA Posts: 2,774 Photos: 2	Later in my "wisdom phase" of IM, I decided quite adrently that HIT was not the end all solution. I promoted CHANGE OF VARIABLES - time under tension, rep cadence, exercises, exercise order, time between exercises, use of exceptional modifications (super sets, half reps, negatives), hand position, et al. I have always done low volume (now I'm at 2 sets of 5 exercises) - but during certain phases (the Johnson coined "Blitz") I go to the opposite end of the spectrum. Such that I do high volume, high reps, lower pauses, and more extraneous techniques to draw up a temporary imposition on my body. Of course I only do that for maybe a week, in which I'll work out every day - all in a row. It's not fun and it's very draining, I'm convinced doing it for longer than 10 days would probably blow your mind. Of course, fitting HIT into this scheme is very easy, but it has to be done cautiously. I made great strides in my gains on HIT but I figured out eventually that change is the most important factor in maintaining positive results. And, on the topic, I think I have pretty big legs. Since I've been doing bottom-pause squats (the pause is in the BOTTOM segment of the squat) my quad size has gone to nearly 30 inches. I work out with 345 for 12 doing this. I can squat "regular style" much better and lower because of this technique. Beginners, HIT is probably the best, in my opinion. HIT in it's strictest form for intermediates and above should be utilized on a temporary basis (BUT NOT DISCARDED!) That would be my personal recommendation. I really consider what I do now a logical progression of HIT, where the volume is low but the relative imposition & intensity on the body is always high - thanks to the changing variables. So technically I consider myself a HIT advocate; but it is certainly not a traditional Mentzer HIT. My 2 cents
	"in the howling bleeding nights, the dogs plunge into the Volga and swim desperately to gain the other bank. The nights of Stalingrad are a terror for them. Animals flee this hell; the hardest stones cannot bear it for long; only men endure."

11-28-2005, 04:16 PM	#34
soxmuscle do work son Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: I will eat your face Posts: 8,541 Photos: 10	wow is it good to have you back...
	Age: 20 \| Height: 5'7" \| Weight: 150 lbs \| Penis: 12 inches

11-28-2005, 08:18 PM	#35
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	So when you say lift till failure... does that mean doing 3-6 reps until you drop, or doing a managable weight numerous times?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-28-2005, 08:20 PM	#36
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	Failure means until you can no longer perform a repitition in proper form. Basically, until you drop (but hopefully not literally)
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

11-28-2005, 08:27 PM	#38
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	No, but I meant to achieve failure, do you do a moderate weight (say 80 percent of your max) for 8 reps, or do something almost to your max (say 90 percent) for 3-6 reps? How does this system work as far as how much you're supposed to lift?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-28-2005, 08:33 PM	#42
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	No seriously. If I wanted to lift till failure, what percentage of my max should I do? Do I want to fail at 3 reps, or 11 reps?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-28-2005, 08:35 PM	#43
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	depends on what intensity level you are failing at. also, to lift you failure for something like say, squats. You could try and take your 10RM and squat it as many times as possible using the rest pause method of standing there for as long as it takes between reps until you totally fail. Also a lot of fun.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-28-2005, 08:37 PM	#45
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	Doesn't strength building come from low reps? Like 3 reps? Or does that only deal with multiple sets?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-28-2005, 08:49 PM	#47
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	Ya. So if I was speed training elsewhere (for martial arts), I could focus on the 1-3 rep sets in the gym to build overall strength? Or should I include endurance in the overall thing so I can help both worlds?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-28-2005, 08:50 PM	#48
camarosuper6 Back Home In SOCAL Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 3,354	I think it has a lot to do with the SAID principle and neuro-efficiency.
	"TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions" G.K.Chesterton Boot Shine and Polish $15. New Uniforms: $250 New gun and holster: $450 Looking like a stud in uniform: Priceless Girl: Me and this new guy are getting kinda chummy. Me: Good chummy? Like friends forever? Girl: Ya Me: Or Chummy like, spank my ass chummy?

11-29-2005, 08:05 PM	#50
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	What does CNS mean? I'm not trying to bench 800 pounds, however, I want to increase my strength for hitting and the length I can hit for. At the moment, I'm not SO worried about strength endurance, but it would certainly help. I'm really trying to get to the "explosiveness" that strength gives you, such as throwing a punch or a kick. What should I do?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-29-2005, 08:07 PM	#51
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	CNS= central nervous system
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-29-2005, 08:15 PM	#52
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	So what does he mean "kill it?" Does that mean I will permanently damage myself, or just become overly exhausted?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-29-2005, 08:19 PM	#53
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	They don't mean kill it like kill it. They mean you will enter into an overtrained state in which the CNS is permanatly overstressed and unable to recover from workouts which will lead to other problems such as....getting sick, training injuries, overly tired, interest in training decreases, loss of strength, increased resting heart rate, etc.....The CNS is sensitive to the training environment you place it in. You train, it adapts, you train more, it adapts more. After awhile, if you don't give it a break it stops being able to adapt. This is why people do things like periodize (among other reasons), take a week off after a certain amount of training (say a week off every 6-8 weeks) or perform an light unloading week of active rest after a bout of training (again, say every 6-8 weeks).
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

11-29-2005, 09:13 PM	#55
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	Is there any sites/etc. that can guide me on this?
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167

11-29-2005, 10:29 PM	#57
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Honestly, I don't know too much about olympic lifting programs. There are a few journals of people doing them that you can check out for ideas though (P-funk, MonkeyMan, Jodi, GoalGetter). Here are some links to put together a Westside routine: http://www.elitefts.com/ Just sift around. There is a lot there. Dave Tate and Jim Wendler know what works and practice what they preach. http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459806 - Part I http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459671 - Part II This is a two part article about conjugate periodization, which is the scheme used by Westside. It provides a template for designing a routine properly. http://www.westside-barbell.com/ The official site of the gym where the routine came from.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

11-29-2005, 11:56 PM	#58
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167	Wow, you're true to your word. Thank you kindly, sir Gardon
Gardon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 167