testosterone and exercises long post

**P-funk** · 10-22-2005, 09:37 PM

It is a long flight from NYC to Vegas. I had already read this quarters Milo strength training journal and I didn't want to carry a text book with me. So, I was forced to read Musclar Development. I usually just thumb through it and loosely skim articles about BB'er and steroids etc....However there was one great article about testerone and training that reall stood out. I will post some of the studies of interest here for others to enjoy.

Quote:

Nindl et al., had subjects perform a high volume resistance training protocol which consisted of 50 total sets of upper nad lower body resistance exercise with repetitions of 5 and 10 1RM loads with 90sec rest inbetween sets. The suspected hypothesis was that there would be a huge increase in testosterone with such a high-intensity, high volume training protocol mediated by some increases in LH (leutinizing hormone). The high-volume resistance training protocol resulted in just the opposite. There was no change in restosterone and LH during exercise and immediatly after exercise; shockingly there was a concomitant lower LH secretion and suppressed total and free testosterone for up to 13 hours after exercise. [J Appl Physiol, Aug; 89 (2):1251-8]

right there is a great argument for low(er) volume workouts! Train harder not longer!

more....

Quote:

Hakkinen et al., monitored elite Olympic lifters' testosterone concnetrations to twice daily training for one week. Elite Olympic weightlifters trained twice a day using similiar volume (greater than 90% of a 1RM) but different exercises. The morning session (9am to 11am) consisted of Olympic snatches, clean and jerks, and front squats, while the afternoon session (3pm-5pm) consisted of power snatches, power cleans and back squats. Testosterone started to decrease after the first training day and continued to systematically decrease over the course of the training period. When the training stress was reduced to one training session a day, serum testosterone concentrations started to increase, and after one full day of rest, values returned to the pre-training level. Strength levels of the elite athletes did not decline over the course of the week despite a decline in testosterone concentrations. [Int J Sports Med, Dec;9(6):422-8, 1988]

See, more is not always better. Now you know why the bulgarian and russian weightlifting teams of years past were jacked up on so much test! It was the only way to maintain that level of training (3 sessions per day for 6-7 days a week!).

still more....

Quote:

Kraemer et al., reported that a resistance training protocol of three sets of bench press, lat pull downs, leg extensions and leg curls performed at 10RM load for 10 repetitions or until muscular failure resulted in a signifigant increase in tesosterone levels. But when he corrected for the plasma volume shifts or the amount of fluid lost from the blood, he found that there was no change in tesosterone. [Med Sci Sports Exer, Vol. 24, No. 12, pp. 1346-1352, 1992]

another....

Quote:

Schwab et al., investigated the effect of heavy weightlifting and moderate weightlifting on concentrations of serum testosterone in males. The heavy weightlifting consisted of four sets of six squats at 90 to 95 percent of a six-repetition maximum, while the moderate weightlifting consisted of four sets of nine or ten repetitions at 60 to 65 percent of a 1RM. The weight and number of repetitions were manipulated such that the total weight lifted for the two sessions was equal. Testosterone levels were measured after each set to determine when a rise in testosterone occured. Testosterone levels didn't rise until the fourth set for both groups. Schwab hypothesized that because the exercise bout was brief, possibly epinephrine and nor-epinephrine, which have been showen to increase during exericse to the magnitude of the intensity of the exercise, could have significantly increased testosterone levels in response to the exercises bouts. [Med Sci Sports Exerc, Dec;25(12):1381-5, 1993]

one more.....

Quote:

Hakkinen et al., subjected 10 male strength athletes to two different training intensities while maintaining similar rest periods (three minutes). The first session consisted of maximum loads (20 sets x 1RM x 100 percent), while one week later they performed sub-maximuml training (10 sets x 10RM x 70%). Testosterone levels with the maximum training (20 sets x 1RM x 100 percent) didn't change immediatly and one hour post-exercise, however testosterone and cortisol responses to sub maximum training (10 sets x 10RM x 70%) increased significantly after and one hour post-exercise with the sub-maximum training loads. Hakkinen concluded that heavy resistance exercises can stimulate varying endocrine responses of anabolic hormones, which differ in duration, and magnitude depending on the degree of stress of the exercises protocol. [J Appl Phsiol, 74: 882-887, 1993]

I lied....

Quote:

W.J. Kraemer compared bodybuilders and powerlifters of the same age size and experience to an intense resistance training protocol, which shortened rest periods. The experimental sessions consisted of three sets of 10 reps for 10 exercises with 10 second rest periods between sets and 30-60sec rest periods between exercises. There was no significant difference between the groups as peak plasma lactate levels five minutes post-exercise was 21 mmol/L for both groups. Testosterone increased significantly for both groups, but regardless of previous training experience, both bodybuilders and powerlifters had similar increases in testosterone concentrations. [Int J Sports Med, Aug;8(4):247-252, 1987]

Okay one more really......

Quote:

Testosterone responses to resistance training in men are less with low-intensity training protocols than those using high intenisty. Raastad et al., compared testosterone responses to two protocols, which utilized different intensities of squats, front squats and leg extensions yet workload remained constant. One protocol was a moderate intensity (70% or 1RM) and the other protocol was a high intensity work load (100% if a 6RM). Rest periods between sets were 4-6 minutes for both workouts. Testosterone responses were higher during, and one hour after, the 70% protocol compared to the 100% protocol. Training intensities should be at least 70% or more to stimulate sufficien rises in testosterone production. So now that you understand that powerlifting protocols which incorporate high training percent (90> and above) and long rest periods aren't conducive for increasing GH and testosterone during exercise, however using a high training percent should be incorporated into your routine for increaing muscular strength. [Eur J Appl Physiol, 82:121-128, 2000]

another one.....(sorry)

Quote:

Craig et al., reported that testosterone levels did not increase from pre to post exercise for younger and older men to upper and lower body isolation type resistance exercise on a Nautilus machine consisting of three sets of 10 reps. [Mech Aging Dev, Aug;49:159-69, 1989]. Contrary to these finding, W.J.Kraemer reported significant increases in testosterone responses of older and younger men in response to a high intensity squat protocol. Kraemer speculated the greater tesosterone produced in his study compared to Craig et al., was due to his protocol using large muscle mass and higher training intensity. [Eur J Appl Physiol, Feb;77(3):206-11, 1998]

you know what that means!! Quit doing so much single joint bull sh*t (this means you guys that preach bicep training 3 times a week) and start lifting weights!

okay....one last one this time. I promise.

Quote:

W.J. Kraemer investigated adolescent Olympic weightlifters' (17-18 years old) testosterone concentrations in response to an intense weightlifting session consisting of 10 maximum effort vertical jumps and high intensity, low volume resistance training with the Olympic snatch and snatch pull. Subjects were separated into two experimental groups: 1) less than two years lifting experience, and 2) greater than two years lifting experience. Exercise-induced increases in testosterone occured only in the weightlifters training for greater than two years, while weightlifters with less than two years experience did not see a significant exercise induced increase in testosterone. Kraemer hypothesized the experienced weightlifters had enhanced release of testosterone. A most intriguing aspect of the study was lactate levels were similar in both groups post-exercise; these data suggest that in adolescent boys, blood lactate is not a strong activator of the HPG axis. [Int J Sports Med, Feb;13(2):103-9, 1992]

**CowPimp** · 10-22-2005, 10:06 PM

Interesting stuff. I was very surprised by the last study where the more experienced atheletes noticed a greater rise in T levels relative to the newer trainees. I was expecting the opposite!

Good stuff, and pretty much what I thought to be true.

Triple Threat · 10-23-2005, 08:12 AM

Good read, P-funk. Thanks for posting that.

The Monkey Man · 10-23-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Interesting stuff. I was very surprised by the last study where the more experienced atheletes noticed a greater rise in T levels relative to the newer trainees. I was expecting the opposite!

Good stuff, and pretty much what I thought to be true.

I would think the more experienced athlete's would also
be more aware of those changes in their bodies...
You know... Able to recognize it...

I had a spike...
The first two weeks of doing olympic lifts, I felt like I was on PH's again
(gone now of course) -

**Dale Mabry** · 10-24-2005, 09:06 AM

Good stuff. I wonder if they controlled for current state (Ie could they have been in an overtrained state) with the first couple of studies since they were used with elite athletes.

It is cool how the second one showed test decreasing yet no drop in strength. I would think that it would have been advantageous to follow them during and after the unloading period to see if their strength shot up or stayed the same after an unloading week. Could have lended more support or helped to refute periodization.

Tough Old Man · 10-24-2005, 09:30 AM

Thanks Patrick

**Mudge** · 10-24-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I would think that it would have been advantageous to follow them during and after the unloading period to see if their strength shot up or stayed the same after an unloading week.

Look how much testosterone it takes to show noticeable effects in steroid users. Even a 5% change is not going to show much if anything in the short term, the human body is far more complex than one hormone making that big of a difference in the noticeable term. We could also argue that its mental, depending on the study.

The average first steroid cycle has someones testosterone level easily 3-5 times or greater their natural levels.

I've seen blood tests for low dose users having T levels of 3500ng/dL, waaaaaay over normal. Despite how high that is, it is nowhere near what a person of heavyweight NPC or Olympian caliber would be tested as.

LAM · 10-24-2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Interesting stuff. I was very surprised by the last study where the more experienced atheletes noticed a greater rise in T levels relative to the newer trainees. I was expecting the opposite!

Good stuff, and pretty much what I thought to be true.

advanced weight trainers can handle a greater work load at a higher intensity than newbies

**Dale Mabry** · 10-24-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Look how much testosterone it takes to show noticeable effects in steroid users. Even a 5% change is not going to show much if anything in the short term, the human body is far more complex than one hormone making that big of a difference in the noticeable term. We could also argue that its mental, depending on the study.

The average first steroid cycle has someones testosterone level easily 3-5 times or greater their natural levels.

I've seen blood tests for low dose users having T levels of 3500ng/dL, waaaaaay over normal. Despite how high that is, it is nowhere near what a person of heavyweight NPC or Olympian caliber would be tested as.

Agreed, but I was thinking more than just the test level would be at work. Structured overreaching has been hypothesized to be advantageous in some, more specifically elite athletes.

**P-funk** · 10-25-2005, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Agreed, but I was thinking more than just the test level would be at work. Structured overreaching has been hypothesized to be advantageous in some, more specifically elite athletes.

yea, that is the basis of the fitness fatigue model of training. Adaptation/intensification or stress/adaptation. I would think that their strength would have gone up after an unloaded period of all that volume and/or intensity. Especially in the elite olympic lifters. That is basically how the bulgarians training. Near max efforts 2-3 times a day 6-7 days a week. Until a week out from the contest they would drop the volume and drop the intensity to try and peak for the contest.

KelJu · 03-12-2006, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Schwab et al., investigated the effect of heavy weightlifting and moderate weightlifting on concentrations of serum testosterone in males. The heavy weightlifting consisted of four sets of six squats at 90 to 95 percent of a six-repetition maximum, while the moderate weightlifting consisted of four sets of nine or ten repetitions at 60 to 65 percent of a 1RM. The weight and number of repetitions were manipulated such that the total weight lifted for the two sessions was equal. Testosterone levels were measured after each set to determine when a rise in testosterone occured. Testosterone levels didn't rise until the fourth set for both groups. Schwab hypothesized that because the exercise bout was brief, possibly epinephrine and nor-epinephrine, which have been showen to increase during exericse to the magnitude of the intensity of the exercise, could have significantly increased testosterone levels in response to the exercises bouts. [Med Sci Sports Exerc, Dec;25(12):1381-5, 1993]

What I get from this is that on leg day, I might could boast my natural test levels by doing the following program:
Squat - 4 sets of 6 at 90 percent 1RM
Seated Calf raises - 3 sets of 30 at 50 percent 1RM
Standing Calf raises - 3 sets of 30 at 50 percent 1RM

I added the 6 sets of calf exercises, because one of the other articles said that small isolation exercises had no effect on test levels. I could spend the extra time on my calves, without lowering my test levels.
My understanding of the studies would lead me to believe that the above would be an optimal leg workout for the purposes of naturally raising testosterone levels.

Quote:

W.J. Kraemer compared bodybuilders and powerlifters of the same age size and experience to an intense resistance training protocol, which shortened rest periods. The experimental sessions consisted of three sets of 10 reps for 10 exercises with 10 second rest periods between sets and 30-60sec rest periods between exercises. There was no significant difference between the groups as peak plasma lactate levels five minutes post-exercise was 21 mmol/L for both groups. Testosterone increased significantly for both groups, but regardless of previous training experience, both bodybuilders and powerlifters had similar increases in testosterone concentrations. [Int J Sports Med, Aug;8(4):247-252, 1987]

No this looks to me like HIT. The problem is they didn't say how much of an increase of test there was in the HIT training style compared to the High Intensity Low volume group.

Quote:

Testosterone responses to resistance training in men are less with low-intensity training protocols than those using high intenisty. Raastad et al., compared testosterone responses to two protocols, which utilized different intensities of squats, front squats and leg extensions yet workload remained constant. One protocol was a moderate intensity (70% or 1RM) and the other protocol was a high intensity work load (100% if a 6RM). Rest periods between sets were 4-6 minutes for both workouts. Testosterone responses were higher during, and one hour after, the 70% protocol compared to the 100% protocol. Training intensities should be at least 70% or more to stimulate sufficien rises in testosterone production. So now that you understand that powerlifting protocols which incorporate high training percent (90> and above) and long rest periods aren't conducive for increasing GH and testosterone during exercise, however using a high training percent should be incorporated into your routine for increaing muscular strength. [Eur J Appl Physiol, 82:121-128, 2000]

Ok, now I am all confused. This study is showing that the medium intensity group (70% of 1RM) is showing better post workout test production than the High intensity group.
My understanding of the study is that basicly, high intensity training (4 sets of 4 of 1RM) with 4-6 minute rest intervals is great for strenght gains, but they do not produce maximum natural test levels.

What I did understand in the studies:
Lower training volume with higher intensity is good.
Training twice a day at high intensity is very bad.
Experienced lifters (2 years or more) will get better natural test production levels than newbies from doing the same HI exercises.

What I didn't understand:
One study shows that the 3 sets of 10 style of lifting has no effect on natural test production, but then another study shows that it does, but only after following a week of having done maximum loads. Why?

I know my questions are sort of confusing, but I would appreciate any help you guys might could give me on understanding this stuff.

**CowPimp** · 03-13-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelJu

What I get from this is that on leg day, I might could boast my natural test levels by doing the following program:
Squat - 4 sets of 6 at 90 percent 1RM
Seated Calf raises - 3 sets of 30 at 50 percent 1RM
Standing Calf raises - 3 sets of 30 at 50 percent 1RM

I added the 6 sets of calf exercises, because one of the other articles said that small isolation exercises had no effect on test levels. I could spend the extra time on my calves, without lowering my test levels.
My understanding of the studies would lead me to believe that the above would be an optimal leg workout for the purposes of naturally raising testosterone levels.

First of all, the 4x6 shouldn't be at 90% of your 1RM. In the study, they used 90-95% of their 6RM. What you are suggesting isn't really possible.

If you really want to maximize testosterone levels, then you should include another compound movement at least. The calf raises aren't going to do dick for your test levels.

Quote:

No this looks to me like HIT. The problem is they didn't say how much of an increase of test there was in the HIT training style compared to the High Intensity Low volume group.

That's not HIT at all. HIT just calls for going to total failure and using beyond failure techniques. All this study is really saying is that powerlifters and bodybuilders have a similar hormonal response to short rest periods, and that resting less than 30-60s doesn't make much of a difference in this response.

Quote:

Ok, now I am all confused. This study is showing that the medium intensity group (70% of 1RM) is showing better post workout test production than the High intensity group.
My understanding of the study is that basicly, high intensity training (4 sets of 4 of 1RM) with 4-6 minute rest intervals is great for strenght gains, but they do not produce maximum natural test levels.

Basically, the higher volume is superior for stimulating test production, yeah. Higher intensity is better for strength gains.

Quote:

What I did understand in the studies:
Lower training volume with higher intensity is good.
Training twice a day at high intensity is very bad.
Experienced lifters (2 years or more) will get better natural test production levels than newbies from doing the same HI exercises.

What I didn't understand:
One study shows that the 3 sets of 10 style of lifting has no effect on natural test production, but then another study shows that it does, but only after following a week of having done maximum loads. Why?

I know my questions are sort of confusing, but I would appreciate any help you guys might could give me on understanding this stuff.

I think you're maybe referring to the study where they did a bunch of isolation movements and the increase was crap?

KelJu · 03-13-2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

First of all, the 4x6 shouldn't be at 90% of your 1RM. In the study, they used 90-95% of their 6RM. What you are suggesting isn't really possible.

Ok, I see where I misread that, thanks for clarifying that for me.

Quote:

If you really want to maximize testosterone levels, then you should include another compound movement at least. The calf raises aren't going to do dick for your test levels.

No, you are misunderstanding me here. That was only a theoretical plan, my actual leg workouts consist of 2 compound movements and 3 isolation movements.
Compound - Squats and Leg Press
Isolations - Leg curls, seated calf raises, and standing calf raises.

The reason I had included the extra calf work was this, and correct me here if I am wrong again, but isolation exercises do not have a negative effect on test levels. This would allow me to get my two compound movements in, and still be able to stack on my extra calf work with no ill effects. That is what I got from the studies.

I am probably just way over thinking all of this, but I am trying to fine tune my push/pull/leg split with an alternating periodization system. So you see, I am not trying to be a pain in the ass here, I am just trying to get closer to you guy's level of knowledge.

**P-funk** · 03-13-2006, 02:09 PM

wow.....were the hell did this thread come back from! lol

**CowPimp** · 03-13-2006, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelJu

No, you are misunderstanding me here. That was only a theoretical plan, my actual leg workouts consist of 2 compound movements and 3 isolation movements.
Compound - Squats and Leg Press
Isolations - Leg curls, seated calf raises, and standing calf raises.

The reason I had included the extra calf work was this, and correct me here if I am wrong again, but isolation exercises do not have a negative effect on test levels. This would allow me to get my two compound movements in, and still be able to stack on my extra calf work with no ill effects. That is what I got from the studies.

I am probably just way over thinking all of this, but I am trying to fine tune my push/pull/leg split with an alternating periodization system. So you see, I am not trying to be a pain in the ass here, I am just trying to get closer to you guy's level of knowledge.

I see what you're saying. It shouldn't negatively affect your hormone levels if you were to throw in isolation stuff at the end, but it probably won't do a whole Hell of a lot to benefit them either. Just keep your workout length reasonable.

KelJu · 03-13-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

wow.....were the hell did this thread come back from! lol

Lol, I revived it P-Funk. I stumbled across it while searching for periodization and high intensity training programs. It was a good read, maybe the newbies will get something from it.

cp_sogoj · 03-22-2006, 11:47 AM

wow! this is to much technical to me, lol! I start reading the post but i lost myself maybe due to some technical jargon (i am a newbie) and due to my english.

SO, what the main conclusion from the original post of p-funk? What can be "extracted" from there that i may use to my train?

soxmuscle · 03-22-2006, 06:24 PM

this is an awesome thread, thanks for posting, p.

**P-funk** · 03-22-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cp_sogoj

wow! this is to much technical to me, lol! I start reading the post but i lost myself maybe due to some technical jargon (i am a newbie) and due to my english.

SO, what the main conclusion from the original post of p-funk? What can be "extracted" from there that i may use to my train?

well, I sort of gave a summary of each one at the end of each quote....trainer harder not longer, train larger muscle groups, etc....

10-22-2005, 10:06 PM	#2
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,428	Interesting stuff. I was very surprised by the last study where the more experienced atheletes noticed a greater rise in T levels relative to the newer trainees. I was expecting the opposite! Good stuff, and pretty much what I thought to be true.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

10-24-2005, 09:06 AM	#5
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,881 Photos: 10	Good stuff. I wonder if they controlled for current state (Ie could they have been in an overtrained state) with the first couple of studies since they were used with elite athletes. It is cool how the second one showed test decreasing yet no drop in strength. I would think that it would have been advantageous to follow them during and after the unloading period to see if their strength shot up or stayed the same after an unloading week. Could have lended more support or helped to refute periodization.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

03-13-2006, 02:09 PM	#14
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	wow.....were the hell did this thread come back from! lol
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

03-22-2006, 11:47 AM	#17
cp_sogoj Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 83	wow! this is to much technical to me, lol! I start reading the post but i lost myself maybe due to some technical jargon (i am a newbie) and due to my english. SO, what the main conclusion from the original post of p-funk? What can be "extracted" from there that i may use to my train?
cp_sogoj Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 83

03-22-2006, 06:24 PM	#18
soxmuscle do work son Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: I will eat your face Posts: 8,541 Photos: 10	this is an awesome thread, thanks for posting, p.
	Age: 20 \| Height: 5'7" \| Weight: 150 lbs \| Penis: 12 inches

10-23-2005, 08:12 AM	#3
Triple Threat ... Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lost Posts: 9,490 Photos: 6	Good read, P-funk. Thanks for posting that.

10-24-2005, 09:30 AM	#6
Tough Old Man Canine club CEO Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: baja calif, Mexico Posts: 6,933 Photos: 1	Thanks Patrick

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testosterone and exercises *long post*

testosterone and exercises long post