Front Loaded Squats

Squaggleboggin · 11-03-2005, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfish

BB bench > DB bench.

This means nothing without an explanation.

Again, the DB bench forces you to work much harder to move the same amount of weight. How do you figure the BB bench is better for functional strength? The DB bench is much more effective because it puts you at more of a disadvantage. More weight means nothing. More stress and more work are the keys.

I could load up 250 pounds on the BB and move it three inches. I could also load up 240 pounds and do a complete bench press rep. Using your logic, the first exercise is better because it uses more weight. Again, if someone could explain the logic behind this, that would be great.

TJ Cline · 11-03-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

i disagree.

I disagree.

Stretch · 11-03-2005, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

This means nothing without an explanation.
I could load up 250 pounds on the BB and move it three inches. I could also load up 240 pounds and do a complete bench press rep. Using your logic, the first exercise is better because it uses more weight. Again, if someone could explain the logic behind this, that would be great.

Well, you have to consider that in each situation, you are at max effort. Otherwise, nothing can be compared.

Squaggleboggin · 11-03-2005, 09:58 PM

Do you really mean to say that moving 250 pounds three inches is more effective than moving 240 pounds for the entire movement? Hopefully not.

Assume 240 is my max, and that I can only move 250 three inches, period. I'm doing much more work moving the 240 the entire distance. The whole point of that was to make some people realize that more weight does not mean a better exercise. And, no, it wouldn't have to be maxes to have a comparison, just equal percentages of the 1RM or equal weights.

BigDyl · 11-03-2005, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I disagree.

I'd agree with whatever she said...

TJ Cline · 11-03-2005, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDyl

I'd agree with whatever she said...

And you still wont hit it

**CowPimp** · 11-04-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Do you really mean to say that moving 250 pounds three inches is more effective than moving 240 pounds for the entire movement? Hopefully not.

Again, it all comes down to specificity. If you are talking about increasing lockout strength on your bench press because that is your weak point, then yes, it can be more effective.

Quote:

Assume 240 is my max, and that I can only move 250 three inches, period. I'm doing much more work moving the 240 the entire distance. The whole point of that was to make some people realize that more weight does not mean a better exercise. And, no, it wouldn't have to be maxes to have a comparison, just equal percentages of the 1RM or equal weights.

I still agree that more weight doesn't necessarily make for a better exercise. I'm sure I can move more weight on a smitch machine than comparable freeweight movements, but fuck the shit machine; it is a non-functional turd of a device and I won't be caught dead doing a single thing in one, ever.

However, I must say, people need to stop thinking about movements in terms of superiority. Most every movement has it's place in someone's training, so long as it isn't unecessarily dangerous.

Yanick · 11-04-2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

I do see where you're coming from, but, using the same facts, my logic is much different. You see, I'm interested in the exercise that will cause you to work the hardest with the least amount of weight (AKA the exercise that will build the most functional strength to me). This is why I've always stood by the DB bench being better than the BB bench for strength. Sure, you can use more weight for the BB bench, but there's a good reason why you can't use as much with the DBs - it's much more difficult to do a DB bench with the same weight as a BB bench. To me, this makes the DB bench a much more valuable exercise. Now, replace 'BB bench' with 'back squat' and 'DB bench' with 'front squat' and my same logic still applies. Just because there's actually more weight on the bar doesn't mean you actually have to work harder. Therefore, the exercise with which you can use less weight while still needing the same amount of force is the better exercise IMO. Many people disagree with this, but my reasoning is for different reasons than their reasoning usually is. Hopefully I explained my thoughts sufficiently.

P-funk, I thought you said there were some olympic lifters who could do a front squat of close to 1,000 pounds but didn't do them anymore because after that point it didn't help them with their cleans. Maybe I just misremembered.

Oh, and I'm quite sure that someone with a strong front squat (such as an olympic lifter) will also have a strong back squat, especially since you said that in your first paragraph, but seemed to contradict yourself in the next.

i see what your saying, and upon further examination i think this whole debate is pointless as there cannot be a superior exercise in those terms. Yeah if your talkinb about leg presses vs squats of whatever kind i can see someone saying squats are superior, but even then some BB'er will come on and start arguing the pro's of leg pressing. So the whole debate is pointless.

as far as the contradictory statement made, it seemed like it but the point i was trying to get across was the fact that Oly lifters, front and back squat like anybody else. In other words, lets take the 1000lb raw back squat, Pat was talking about. Say an oly lifter never back squats and gets his front squat to an astronomical figure, like say 700 or something. I doubt he would be able to back squat 1000lbs if he doesn't train the lift, however one who trains both lifts will be able to back squat significantly more than front, as an example he might put up a 600lb front squat, but the back squat can be around the 1000 range.

and lastly, i think i understand your argument now although i think the whole debate is moot, as i've stated. Basically it all comes down to the tension on your muscles as you move through your range of motion. An example being doing side laterals with straight arms, vs bent arms. Sure you can use more weight on the bent arm version, however the force that your muscles must produce to overcome the weight when it is held straight out at arms length may potentially be greater (making the resistance arm longer?). but there is no possible way to quantify which version of squats will create more tension in a specific muscle or muscles so i can't see how anyone can say one is better than the other.

The13ig13adWolf · 11-04-2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I disagree.

fair enough.

The Monkey Man · 11-04-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

They back squat near 1000lbs raw but have stopped since there isn't much carry over to the actual lifts like there is when you front squat.

LEARN IT...

KNOW IT...

LIVE IT!!!

**CowPimp** · 11-04-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

fair enough.

Wrong.

The Monkey Man · 11-04-2005, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Wrong.

She means he is entitled to his opinion...

(I Hope) -

Squaggleboggin · 11-04-2005, 09:39 PM

Well the only thing I care about is whether people actually understand what I'm saying now. For so long everyone just said that I was wrong and never actually looked at what I was saying.

To me, there will always be movements superior to others because of my goals, so it really isn't a pointless argument so long as you know what goals are in mind.

The comment about the bench press, you kind of missed the entire point, CP. It had nothing to do with the lockout portion or anything - I was just showing that more weight doesn't always mean a better exercise.

BigDyl · 11-04-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

And you still wont hit it

c'mon man, you know i spit hot fiyah.

**CowPimp** · 11-04-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Man

She means he is entitled to his opinion...

(I Hope) -

I was just being an ass. I meant nothing by it. Heh.

**CowPimp** · 11-04-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Well the only thing I care about is whether people actually understand what I'm saying now. For so long everyone just said that I was wrong and never actually looked at what I was saying.

To me, there will always be movements superior to others because of my goals, so it really isn't a pointless argument so long as you know what goals are in mind.

That's true enough. Some movements are superior to others depending on their goals.

However, there are certainly tough calls. For example, are leg presses or olympic squats better for hypertrophying the quadriceps? You'd be hard pressed to give me a definitive answer on that one. Everyone is going to have their own opinion based on very loosely controlled empirical evidence. However, that is not enough for me to declare a winner.

Quote:

The comment about the bench press, you kind of missed the entire point, CP. It had nothing to do with the lockout portion or anything - I was just showing that more weight doesn't always mean a better exercise.

Fair enough; I see your point. I was merely emphasizing the role that specificity plays in exercise selection.

Squaggleboggin · 11-04-2005, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

That's true enough. Some movements are superior to others depending on their goals.

However, there are certainly tough calls. For example, are leg presses or olympic squats better for hypertrophying the quadriceps? You'd be hard pressed to give me a definitive answer on that one. Everyone is going to have their own opinion based on very loosely controlled empirical evidence. However, that is not enough for me to declare a winner.

Fair enough; I see your point. I was merely emphasizing the role that specificity plays in exercise selection.

Yeah, there are definitely close calls. Luckily I usually have very specific goals, so the exercises I choose are perfect for what I'm aiming towards.

**Mudge** · 11-05-2005, 12:29 AM

I dont like back squats, can't get into them. I like front squats a lot, as well as leg presses, SLDL and lunges.

The13ig13adWolf · 11-05-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I was just being an ass. I meant nothing by it. Heh.

well stop it...

The13ig13adWolf · 11-05-2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

I dont like back squats, can't get into them. I like front squats a lot, as well as leg presses, SLDL and lunges.

you don't have to like them to do them. full back squats are necessary IMO.

The Monkey Man · 11-05-2005, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

you don't have to like them to do them. full back squats are necessary IMO.

Full back squats would be a detriment to my current training goals!?!?

The13ig13adWolf · 11-05-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Man

Full back squats would be a detriment to my current training goals!?!?

dare i ask how so...

The Monkey Man · 11-05-2005, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

dare i ask how so...

Old habits die hard!

BigDyl · 11-05-2005, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Man

Full back squats would be a detriment to my current training goals!?!?

* Legion * · 11-05-2005, 01:58 PM

There are many good points raised. Ultimately, ladies and gentlemen, Anyone arguing about this topic is, assumedly, doing SOME sort of squat, which is GREAT, because there are too many who do NO squatting, which is terrible. Do the squats. Oly lifters MUST practice the front squats. Powerlifter, do those back squats. I, as of late, have really found my groove with the front squats, and find if strange to get the looks in the gym when I rack up big weight for front squats. its a rush. I feel the tightening in my core, and this is good.

11-03-2005, 09:58 PM	#34
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Do you really mean to say that moving 250 pounds three inches is more effective than moving 240 pounds for the entire movement? Hopefully not. Assume 240 is my max, and that I can only move 250 three inches, period. I'm doing much more work moving the 240 the entire distance. The whole point of that was to make some people realize that more weight does not mean a better exercise. And, no, it wouldn't have to be maxes to have a comparison, just equal percentages of the 1RM or equal weights.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

11-04-2005, 09:39 PM	#43
Squaggleboggin Functional Lifting = Life Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 3,540 Photos: 3	Well the only thing I care about is whether people actually understand what I'm saying now. For so long everyone just said that I was wrong and never actually looked at what I was saying. To me, there will always be movements superior to others because of my goals, so it really isn't a pointless argument so long as you know what goals are in mind. The comment about the bench press, you kind of missed the entire point, CP. It had nothing to do with the lockout portion or anything - I was just showing that more weight doesn't always mean a better exercise.
	Push yourself. Enjoy yourself. Be yourself. Knowledge is power. Obsessed with functional strength. Journal

11-05-2005, 12:29 AM	#48
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23,053 Photos: 1	I dont like back squats, can't get into them. I like front squats a lot, as well as leg presses, SLDL and lunges.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

11-05-2005, 01:58 PM	#55
* Legion * Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Suburb of Chicago, Il. USA Posts: 711 Photos: 2	There are many good points raised. Ultimately, ladies and gentlemen, Anyone arguing about this topic is, assumedly, doing SOME sort of squat, which is GREAT, because there are too many who do NO squatting, which is terrible. Do the squats. Oly lifters MUST practice the front squats. Powerlifter, do those back squats. I, as of late, have really found my groove with the front squats, and find if strange to get the looks in the gym when I rack up big weight for front squats. its a rush. I feel the tightening in my core, and this is good.
	Do not mistake my kindness for weakness.