Thread: Round Back Lifts

Some stress, yes. I'm certainly no expert, but doing this with the back seems especially dangerous because, not only is it composed of so many bones connected together, but also because it houses the CNS and other very important stuff. IMO there's no point in risking it unless you want to develop your back to become rounded. I'll keep mine as straight as possible (or arched back) for as long as I lift. I didn't read anything you gave me, so those are just my immediate thoughts.

are you trying to find a reason to do round back work? I mean, all the strongmen do it in their training because a lot of times that is a position they need to be strong in during contest for some events.

Hmm... This is very true.

Maybe I'm thinking of the back being extremely rounded, as in basically an SLDL with a rounded back instead of a real deadlift.

SLDLs were traditionally performed with a round back, off of blocks to get a full ROM. Dr. Leistner was doing them in that video if you remeber Yan.

Why is that considered incorrect form now then? Am I wrong in thinking that performing the vast majority of movements with a straight back is the safest thing to do? That's what I thought until you mentioned the strongmen. If you take the atlas stones for example though, don't they go from a rounded to a straight back?

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Why is that considered incorrect form now then? Am I wrong in thinking that performing the vast majority of movements with a straight back is the safest thing to do? That's what I thought until you mentioned the strongmen. If you take the atlas stones for example though, don't they go from a rounded to a straight back?

yes, it is dangerous to perform things with a round back. but, if you start light and slowly work your way up and become strong in that ROM you have less of a chance of hurting yourself then if you just find yourself in that position all of a sudden. Look at construction workers. They lift things all day with a round back. They are strong in the ROM.

I wouldn't do it for myself. I have no need to be in a round back position but there are instances were I could see it being considered as a training option.

Originally Posted by P-funk

are you trying to find a reason to do round back work? I mean, all the strongmen do it in their training because a lot of times that is a position they need to be strong in during contest for some events.

actually yes i was trying to justify it to myself, but not for sporting purposes. my reasoning being that if i were to do some sort of round back training it might help keep me injury free during those times when i'm pushing a max or repping and getting sloppy on the form. because we all know that training a muscle isometrically or within a limited ROM the training effect doesn't carry over to other parts of the ROM, i believe that in Supertraining, Siff says that the carry over is something like +/- 10 degrees of the angle in which you trained leaving the other parts of the ROM that much weaker.

Originally Posted by P-funk

SLDLs were traditionally performed with a round back, off of blocks to get a full ROM. Dr. Leistner was doing them in that video if you remeber Yan.

yes i remember the video, it was THE thing that opened my mind to other forms of training (logs, 20 reppers etc.).

maybe some round back SLDLs would help you then. I would start really slow though.

either that or really really really bang the shit out of your back to try and prevent it from rounding even when the weight is at max level. Ya know. Like George...dudes back is strong as fuck, even deadlifting 700lbs it isn't going to budge. I would hit up lots of good mornings and seated good mornings (slowly becoming a fav. of mine.). I have also been doing 45 degree hypers with med. bands on the bottom around my neck at lock out and I lie upside down on the 45 degree hyper machine and place my feet in the bands and do reverse hypers.

There is a "Yan having sex with a fat woman" joke in this thread somewhere.

From what I understand, regardless of how well you strengthen your lower back muscles in that range of motion, there is still a lot of additional compressing load be placed on your spine. Check out the thread I posted called "Train What You Can't See." I posted a statistic from a Zatsiorsky book I have that claims almost double the load is placed on your spine in a round back position relative to maintaining a neutral spine.

Originally Posted by P-funk

maybe some round back SLDLs would help you then. I would start really slow though.

i would definitely start slow and use some sort of block or something to get a greater ROM, that wouldn't be the problem. i'm just always afraid that when i'm 40 i'm going to regret doing some of this stuff. guess thats a good thought to have in the back of your head, but i also feel it might hold me back from certain things training wise.

Originally Posted by P-funk

either that or really really really bang the shit out of your back to try and prevent it from rounding even when the weight is at max level. Ya know. Like George...dudes back is strong as fuck, even deadlifting 700lbs it isn't going to budge. I would hit up lots of good mornings and seated good mornings (slowly becoming a fav. of mine.). I have also been doing 45 degree hypers with med. bands on the bottom around my neck at lock out and I lie upside down on the 45 degree hyper machine and place my feet in the bands and do reverse hypers.

can't picture the 45 degree hyper thing, but i have a real deal hyper set up at my gym (parallel to the floor, not that crazy one that louie simmons has out) on which i can do all of that stuff. Maybe i'll start out with just round back hypers/reverse hypers and then as i'm able to hit good reps with the light band i'll go on to stuff like round back SLDL's.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

There is a "Yan having sex with a fat woman" joke in this thread somewhere.

my rule of thumb "if i can't bench you i can't fuck you" which pretty much eliminates any fat chicks, unless they're like 4'5''. if you don't believe me ask Pat

Originally Posted by CowPimp

From what I understand, regardless of how well you strengthen your lower back muscles in that range of motion, there is still a lot of additional compressing load be placed on your spine. Check out the thread I posted called "Train What You Can't See." I posted a statistic from a Zatsiorsky book I have that claims almost double the load is placed on your spine in a round back position relative to maintaining a neutral spine.

yea i read that post guy, but the only thing i can see with that is the details aren't provided. for instance, sure the compressive forces will be higher when you round your back while standing up, but on stuff like round back GM's/SLDL's you don't round your back while standing upright, its more of a regular GM/SLDL and then you round your back once you get to the limit of your hammies/glutes flexibility wise which would put your spine more parallel to the floor and eliminate the compressive forces...unless i'm wrong, which is a huge possibility.

I would consult some specialists before beginning a workout that goes against all medical advise I have ever heard.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

I would consult some specialists before beginning a workout that goes against all medical advise I have ever heard.

Wouldn't being bashed in the head with somebody else's fist in a boxing glove be against any of the medical advise you have heard?

Originally Posted by Yanick

yea i read that post guy, but the only thing i can see with that is the details aren't provided. for instance, sure the compressive forces will be higher when you round your back while standing up, but on stuff like round back GM's/SLDL's you don't round your back while standing upright, its more of a regular GM/SLDL and then you round your back once you get to the limit of your hammies/glutes flexibility wise which would put your spine more parallel to the floor and eliminate the compressive forces...unless i'm wrong, which is a huge possibility.

I see your point, but I still feel like the same concept would apply during SLDLs or GMs. As well, the same book also states that a concentration of compressive forces acts on the anterior end of your spinal disks. That means that the load is unevenly distributed, which sounds to me like a largely increased chance of a herniated disk.

Pretty much everything I have ever read contradicts the usage of round back lifting. At least if I were you, I would never go heavier than a certain load with round back stuff.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Wouldn't being bashed in the head with somebody else's fist in a boxing glove be against any of the medical advise you have heard?

It is illegal to punch a fighter in the occipital bone, basic Anatomy 101 same as the rounding idea.

But a doctor would recommend, even encourage, being hit anywhere else.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

But a doctor would recommend, even encourage, being hit anywhere else.

Super Mods please ban this racist trouble maker

I think troublemaker is one word.

so

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I think troublemaker is one word.

Smartass. Haha. Or it smartass two words? Hmm...

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I see your point, but I still feel like the same concept would apply during SLDLs or GMs. As well, the same book also states that a concentration of compressive forces acts on the anterior end of your spinal disks. That means that the load is unevenly distributed, which sounds to me like a largely increased chance of a herniated disk.

Pretty much everything I have ever read contradicts the usage of round back lifting. At least if I were you, I would never go heavier than a certain load with round back stuff.

yea i see where your going with this. i'm still probably going to give it a try, but with slow progression of weights. like i said before, it isn't something i will concentrate on exclusively if anything, but if i happen to find myself in a position such as that during heavy lifting it could help with injury prevention.

Originally Posted by Yanick

yea i see where your going with this. i'm still probably going to give it a try, but with slow progression of weights. like i said before, it isn't something i will concentrate on exclusively if anything, but if i happen to find myself in a position such as that during heavy lifting it could help with injury prevention.

I also see where you're going. Just don't get overzealous and stick to a safe level of progression as you claim you will. I know myself, and I would have serious trouble restricting weight acclimation in a new movement even if I know it was for safety. I don't know you well enough to say whether I think you would act as you're saying, but play it safe man!

Originally Posted by Yanick

My thoughts have always been that the erectors are muscles and the spine is lots of joints put together, and can be treated just like any other joint in the body.

This is where I think there's a problem. Yes, the spine is kind of like a lot of little joints put together, but they are NOT like any other joints in the body. The spinal "joints" are much more fragile than any other joint in the body. Also, by being stacked, one on top of the other, the amount of stress each one is able to handle is diminished. (I'm getting ready to throw out a poor analogy, but it's the best I can come up with right now.) If you have two chains of equal length and weight, one has two links and the other has ten, the one with the fewest amount of links will be stronger. Why? Each link is a possible failure point. Therefore, the one with ten links has five times more potential failure points.

so i still haven't given up on this round back thing but i'm becoming more and more hesitant to actually start doing those types of moves. i'm now leaning more toward just hammering my posterior chain so it can handle lots of load isometrically, IE lots of GM's and hypers etc.

one abstract i found what i got from this is that repeatedly flexing your spine will cause the musculature that extends the spine to become deactivated, as they say in the abstract. basically after repping with a flexed spine you sort of become imbalance because the spine flexes more and more and the erectors relax more and more which leads to you shooting an intervertebral disc across the gym floor and knocking out the guy doing curls in the squat rack. that can be interpreted as a good or bad thing

i'll post more stuff if i find anything.

Originally Posted by Yanick

so i still haven't given up on this round back thing but i'm becoming more and more hesitant to actually start doing those types of moves. i'm now leaning more toward just hammering my posterior chain so it can handle lots of load isometrically, IE lots of GM's and hypers etc.

one abstract i found what i got from this is that repeatedly flexing your spine will cause the musculature that extends the spine to become deactivated, as they say in the abstract. basically after repping with a flexed spine you sort of become imbalance because the spine flexes more and more and the erectors relax more and more which leads to you shooting an intervertebral disc across the gym floor and knocking out the guy doing curls in the squat rack. that can be interpreted as a good or bad thing

i'll post more stuff if i find anything.

Mixing your musings with my ability to visualize is...unpleasant.