Super slow reps builds muscle?

garethhe · 12-15-2005, 11:53 PM

"to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.

it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."

is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?

**CowPimp** · 12-15-2005, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Francois Benfatto used to lift slowly, for those historians out there. I thougth he looked pretty awesome, but he was one of the tiny guys of his day. He was shredded via diet.

He lifted so slowly and perfectly he looked like a sculptor at work. In other words, it looked kinda gay and artsy.

He was striated from head to toe.

I'm not suggesting that you cannot build muscle by lifting slowly. Surely you can. However, I still feel that optimal results can be achieved by using explosive concentrics.

kicka19 · 12-15-2005, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethhe

"to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.

it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."

is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?

i will never do a fast upward or downward movement, always a controled movement or your asking for trouble

**CowPimp** · 12-15-2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethhe

"to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement.

it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly."

is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?

Sort of. Recruiting muscle fibers and damaging muscle fibers are two different things. You can recruit muscle fibers without damaging them. The vast majority of tissue trauma occurs during the eccentric portion of the lift. However, you can take advantage of increased neural adaptations and fatigue high threshold muscle fibers by using compensatory acceleration.

**CowPimp** · 12-16-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kicka19

i will never do a fast upward or downward movement, always a controled movement or your asking for trouble

Always control the lift, obviously. However, you can be fast on the positive portion of a lift and still maintain good form. Look at olympic lifters. They have no choice but to be fast.

garethhe · 12-16-2005, 12:00 AM

the compensatory acceleration part is where you lose me

**CowPimp** · 12-16-2005, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethhe

the compensatory acceleration part is where you lose me

That's just accelerating a weight as fast as you can.

garethhe · 12-16-2005, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

That's just accelerating a weight as fast as you can.

I see, thank you. And accelerating a weight on the concentric phase is exactly what I've been talking about here, using Force=Mass times Acceleration.

TJ Cline · 12-16-2005, 12:49 AM

brogers · 12-16-2005, 02:15 AM

I always thought it was good to explode on the concentric portion, and use a slow, controlled eccentric (2-4 seconds). Regarding hypertrophy, my personal experience is that a focus on strength in the weight room, with a good caloric surplus yields better results than anything else. Increase load seems to be the best stimulus for growth. This may be just me personally, however.

1xDeatHsHeaDx3 · 12-16-2005, 03:43 AM

I watched the Ronnie Coleman Unbelievable video (thx bro)
And have you seen how fast he was lifting some of his weights, I was a little shocked, but he's massive.

**P-funk** · 12-16-2005, 04:30 AM

the human body is a series of class three levers (except for a few muscles) which lend themselves to greater amounts of speed development. Also, the CNS wants to revruit motor units as fast as possible. If you train fast (power training, plyo's etc..) you will move fast and more explosivelly. If you train slow, you will be slow as you are allowing your CNS to recruit these motor units at a slower pace and it ofcourse adapts to that because that is what the body does.

**Mudge** · 12-16-2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I'm not suggesting that you cannot build muscle by lifting slowly. Surely you can. However, I still feel that optimal results can be achieved by using explosive concentrics.

Dont think that I'm trying to disagree with you.

**CowPimp** · 12-16-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Dont think that I'm trying to disagree with you.

Let's fight about it. Hehe.

Tha Don · 12-16-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by god hand

This is what I've been hearing and it makes sense. We all hear people say high reps build endurance, but think about it, if your doing your reps fast that's going to build up endurance more than muscle. Just my theory. Please dont get crazy.

explosive/forcefull reps build more muscle and strength in my experience, the faster you lift the weight the more force you are using, this is better, followed by a steady controlled negative, then bang that weight out again

lifting slow is a poor choice for athletes too, esp. sprinters and boxers, as they get used to the slow movements, its important for them to lift explosive so they can build maximum power for sports

**Prince** · 12-16-2005, 11:00 AM

Anyone ever heard of TUT (time under tension)?

I think you should incorporate both slow and explosive reps into your training.

Thunder · 12-16-2005, 12:13 PM

The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles.

On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension.

Total time under tension is associated with volume. Note, that this doesn’t necessarily mean the time under tension of each set, but the cumulative effect of all sets over the course of a workout. Doing more sets increases the total time a given muscle is under tension. As well, manipulating the tempo of a rep also affects time under tension (i.e. longer eccentrics). While loading/tension and density are the key triggers for maximum muscle growth, sufficient – but not excessive – volume helps manifest these structural adaptations. This tends to be an important factor in the overall amount of muscle growth achieved as it results in greater levels of protein degradation.

In the end, the keys to maximum muscle growth are high levels of muscular fatigue, intramuscular tension, and motor unit activation.

Manipulate the eccentric speed, but 9 times out of 10, the concentric should be fast.

**CowPimp** · 12-16-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder

The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles.

On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension.

Total time under tension is associated with volume. Note, that this doesn’t necessarily mean the time under tension of each set, but the cumulative effect of all sets over the course of a workout. Doing more sets increases the total time a given muscle is under tension. As well, manipulating the tempo of a rep also affects time under tension (i.e. longer eccentrics). While loading/tension and density are the key triggers for maximum muscle growth, sufficient – but not excessive – volume helps manifest these structural adaptations. This tends to be an important factor in the overall amount of muscle growth achieved as it results in greater levels of protein degradation.

In the end, the keys to maximum muscle growth are high levels of muscular fatigue, intramuscular tension, and motor unit activation.

Manipulate the eccentric speed, but 9 times out of 10, the concentric should be fast.

Well stated. Another way to increase the time under tension in each set is to simply perform more repetitions. Let's say you perform 8 repetitions with a 2 down/1 up tempo; you could achieve equal time under tension by performing 12 repetitions with a 1 down/1 up tempo. In the end, you should still be able to move approximately the same amount of weight using either method. However, if you choose to increase time under tension by using a slower tempo, it should be the eccentric that is accentuated.

god hand · 12-16-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Endurance? How about altheticism and explosive power. I wasn't aware sprinters were endurance athletes.

Endurance is about slow and steady, I dont know where your theories come from bro.

You didnt give your opinon, do u think it builds muscle faster or not!

Nick+ · 12-16-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudge

Francois Benfatto used to lift slowly, for those historians out there. I thougth he looked pretty awesome, but he was one of the tiny guys of his day. He was shredded via diet.

He lifted so slowly and perfectly he looked like a sculptor at work. In other words, it looked kinda gay and artsy.

He was striated from head to toe.

I also wonder if he did ever take steroids?.Many years ago in a Weider (Muscle and Fitness from Autumn 1993 I think) I remember reading he didn't want to get into Pro BB{maybe because of all the steroids and shit}.

Yes he did often seem 'artsy', one of the things I read about him on the internet was that his head was far too big, for the rest of his body (maybe a valid point).

Yanick · 12-16-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder

The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles.

On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension.

Total time under tension is associated with volume. Note, that this doesn’t necessarily mean the time under tension of each set, but the cumulative effect of all sets over the course of a workout. Doing more sets increases the total time a given muscle is under tension. As well, manipulating the tempo of a rep also affects time under tension (i.e. longer eccentrics). While loading/tension and density are the key triggers for maximum muscle growth, sufficient – but not excessive – volume helps manifest these structural adaptations. This tends to be an important factor in the overall amount of muscle growth achieved as it results in greater levels of protein degradation.

In the end, the keys to maximum muscle growth are high levels of muscular fatigue, intramuscular tension, and motor unit activation.

Manipulate the eccentric speed, but 9 times out of 10, the concentric should be fast.

great post

NeilPearson · 12-16-2005, 05:17 PM

The important physics idea behind weight lifting is IMPULSE

Impulse = force * time

Since you are counteracting gravity, even if the weight isn't moving you have a force of 9.81 m/s^2

The longer this force is exerted, the higher the impulse force. Increasing the force without decreasing the time is impossible without increasing the weight. However you can increase the time without a large decrease in force since you have to continuous overcome gravity no matter how slow you go.

garethhe · 12-16-2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilPearson

The important physics idea behind weight lifting is IMPULSE

Impulse = force * time

Since you are counteracting gravity, even if the weight isn't moving you have a force of 9.81 m/s^2

The longer this force is exerted, the higher the impulse force. Increasing the force without decreasing the time is impossible without increasing the weight. However you can increase the time without a large decrease in force since you have to continuous overcome gravity no matter how slow you go.

If
Impulse = force * time
and
force= mass * acceleration
then can we say
Impulse = mass * acceleration * time ?

if so, we can factor in "Time Under Tension" as previously mentioned

**Mudge** · 12-16-2005, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by god hand

You didnt give your opinon, do u think it builds muscle faster or not!

The routine I use currently has nothing to do with time under tension or repetition speed, but in performing sets of 5/10/15 approximately per movement utilized.

I mentioned Francois in part, because he is small and did very slow repetitions. I believe working slowly is anti-performance related, and in everything that I said by mentioning sprinters for example should be clue enough that I think training slowly is akin to endurance training which does not lead to huge size or strength.

Sprinters are powerfull and muscular, endurance athletes who train slower and for longer periods are not.

**Mudge** · 12-16-2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick+

I also wonder if he did ever take steroids?.Many years ago in a Weider (Muscle and Fitness from Autumn 1993 I think) I remember reading he didn't want to get into Pro BB{maybe because of all the steroids and shit}.

I would not doubt for a second that he took steroids, I never thought he was so gifted to be natural, despite him being a 'little' smaller than other pros of the era. He wasn't tiny, but he was worried about balance and being ripped more than other people of the time (except maybe for the gay Bob Paris who was certainly not as ripped).

12-16-2005, 12:49 AM	#39
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544

12-16-2005, 02:15 AM	#40
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,397	I always thought it was good to explode on the concentric portion, and use a slow, controlled eccentric (2-4 seconds). Regarding hypertrophy, my personal experience is that a focus on strength in the weight room, with a good caloric surplus yields better results than anything else. Increase load seems to be the best stimulus for growth. This may be just me personally, however.
brogers Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,397

12-16-2005, 03:43 AM	#41
1xDeatHsHeaDx3 Misfit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South San Francisco, California Posts: 67	=-o I watched the Ronnie Coleman Unbelievable video (thx bro) And have you seen how fast he was lifting some of his weights, I was a little shocked, but he's massive. Last edited by 1xDeatHsHeaDx3 : 12-16-2005 at 03:44 AM. Reason: Omitted word
	Ron Paul 2008 for fucks sake people! "It's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything. --Tyler Durden (Fight Club)

12-16-2005, 04:30 AM	#42
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,625	the human body is a series of class three levers (except for a few muscles) which lend themselves to greater amounts of speed development. Also, the CNS wants to revruit motor units as fast as possible. If you train fast (power training, plyo's etc..) you will move fast and more explosivelly. If you train slow, you will be slow as you are allowing your CNS to recruit these motor units at a slower pace and it ofcourse adapts to that because that is what the body does.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

12-16-2005, 11:00 AM	#46
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,981 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	Anyone ever heard of TUT (time under tension)? I think you should incorporate both slow and explosive reps into your training.
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

12-15-2005, 11:53 PM	#31
garethhe Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 280	"to make a long story short, an explosive up movement breaks more muscle fibers than a slow and controlled up movement. it is the opposite on the down movement: a slow, controlled down movement exerts more force on the muscle fibers than a fast down movement, since, as god hand pointed out, gravity does more of the work when you drop a weight quickly." is what i said here different in any substantial way from what you are saying, Cowpimp?

12-16-2005, 12:00 AM	#36
garethhe Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 280	the compensatory acceleration part is where you lose me

12-16-2005, 12:13 PM	#47
Thunder Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 132	The primary triggers for muscle hypertrophy are mechanical load/tension, density, and total time under tension. Load and tension is simply the amount of weight lifted. The more you lift, the greater the level of intramuscular tension. The greater the intramuscular tension, the greater the amount of protein degradation and resultant amino acid uptake by your muscles. On the topic of maximizing intramuscular tension, two other things that work to increase intramuscular tension are explosive concentric contractions and slow eccentric contractions. In a practical sense, this simply means that increasing the speed of the overcoming portion of your rep and decreasing the speed of the yielding portion of your rep will result in increased intramuscular tension. Total time under tension is associated with volume. Note, that this doesn’t necessarily mean the time under tension of each set, but the cumulative effect of all sets over the course of a workout. Doing more sets increases the total time a given muscle is under tension. As well, manipulating the tempo of a rep also affects time under tension (i.e. longer eccentrics). While loading/tension and density are the key triggers for maximum muscle growth, sufficient – but not excessive – volume helps manifest these structural adaptations. This tends to be an important factor in the overall amount of muscle growth achieved as it results in greater levels of protein degradation. In the end, the keys to maximum muscle growth are high levels of muscular fatigue, intramuscular tension, and motor unit activation. Manipulate the eccentric speed, but 9 times out of 10, the concentric should be fast.

12-16-2005, 05:17 PM	#52
NeilPearson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 2,330	The important physics idea behind weight lifting is IMPULSE Impulse = force * time Since you are counteracting gravity, even if the weight isn't moving you have a force of 9.81 m/s^2 The longer this force is exerted, the higher the impulse force. Increasing the force without decreasing the time is impossible without increasing the weight. However you can increase the time without a large decrease in force since you have to continuous overcome gravity no matter how slow you go.