Thread: chest question...

Isolating the upper, middle and lower pecs (chest)

Originally Posted by Ronald

i have a chest/tricep day that consits of:

flat bench
DB bench
DB flies
incline bench
(then 3 exercises for triceps)

i get myself sore but only on the outer part of my chest (near my armpits) the middle of my chest isn't really building up as well as the outside is. can anyone recommend something to me? (my bench isnt capable of changing to decline)

Thanks, Ronald

Sometimes when ur sore it's not the muscle at all...it's the tendons and other connective tissues...like if u work bi's and ur sore on the inside of ur elbow...or u work chest and ur sore where ur shoulders and ur chest meet...

My question would be how often do you work out chest?? When I work chest more than once a week I don't get sore anymore, but once a week, hard and heavy, I get sore as hell. Now as far as ur chest not building up in the middle as well...that could just be how ur built, like me, and that will take considerably more time, hard work, and consistency. My chest is filling in, moreso at the top, but it is a slow process sir...be patient and keep at it.

And on another note...since you can't do decline presses, try dips leaning into it to hit the bottom of ur chest and ur tri's./

There are two major points I'd like to cover:

1) You cannot isolate specific parts of a muscle. Either the muscle contracts or it does not. There is no phase in between, no 'lingo,' no twilight zone. It either contracts or it does not. Which parts of your muscle develop at which speeds is dependent solely on genetics, nothing else.

2) DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) is not in any way an indicator of hypertrophy or progression towards one's goals. Just because one part of a muscle feels sore and another part does not, this doesn't mean only part of the muscle is being worked (see #1 above). The only thing you should be looking at as to whether you're progressing is numbers. Have you moved up in weight on your exercises? Have you increased your BW? Have you increased your mass? Other questions may be appropriate for other goals, but you get the idea.

Oh, and it seems like you may be overtraining. What set/rep schemes do you use? It seems like four exercises for chest and three for triceps may be a bit much for some people.

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

There are two major points I'd like to cover:

1) You cannot isolate specific parts of a muscle. Either the muscle contracts or it does not. There is no phase in between, no 'lingo,' no twilight zone. It either contracts or it does not. Which parts of your muscle develop at which speeds is dependent solely on genetics, nothing else.

.

I've read that, but have to ask...what's the point of using different angles at all then?? Wouldn't incline pressing be the worst exercise by this train of thought, considering that it uses more shoulders and less pecs?

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

I've read that, but have to ask...what's the point of using different angles at all then?? Wouldn't incline pressing be the worst exercise by this train of thought, considering that it uses more shoulders and less pecs?

Different angles will simply allow one to become more powerful throughout those different angles. If you were to do just flat bench press, your muscles would be very strong, but only in the ROM of pressing straight up and down (this isn't the actual trajectory in a proper press, but we'll say it is for simplification's sake). So, it's possible, therefore, to have a strong flat bench but a weaker incline bench if it is never trained (this is unlikely though because inclines are generally heavier than flat presses). Specificity is important. Basically, a muscle is strong within about 15 degrees of its trained ROM (if I recall correctly from reading about isometrics). So if you were to do just flat benching, other variants throughout different angles may not be as desirably strong.

In addition, doing just a single exercise may cause one to quickly plateau, which is usually unfavorable in progressing towards one's goals. In order to prevent this, several similar exercises may be used to 'shock' the body into something different. One could even rotate incline and flat pressing into a routine to prevent stagnation. As you can see, there are many different reasons other than attempting to target certain parts of a muscle to use different angles for an exercise.

Incline pressing is still a great exercise though. For some people, working the chest may not be the desired application of such an exercise. Think of overhead pressing. It uses almost all shoulders and a little chest. Obviously the goal is not to hit the chest, but it can still provide a lot of valuable strength to certain people.

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

2) DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) is not in any way an indicator of hypertrophy or progression towards one's goals.

What?

Joking aside, I know that DOMS is not a scientific indicator, but it is a valid, general, indicator. I feel for more DOMS on days that I really push it than the days where I half-ass it.

Originally Posted by PWGriffin

Wouldn't incline pressing be the worst exercise by this train of thought, considering that it uses more shoulders and less pecs?

worst in the sense that flat and decline hit the pecs more, yes; decline puts the least amount of stress on your shoulders.

Originally Posted by DOMS

What?

Joking aside, I know that DOMS is not a scientific indicator, but it is a valid, general, indicator. I feel for more DOMS on days that I really push it than the days where I half-ass it.

You know all those guys that go into the gym and do 100s of curls each and every day or maybe every other day for who knows how long? I'll bet money they feel DOMS. I'll bet they feel it every time. Explain to me why not every single one of those guys has the huge arms he desires.

It simply isn't an indicator. I don't get sore at all anymore but I continue to gain strength. My body is simply used to the rigors of my exercise but the weights increase and it's forced to adapt by becoming stronger, even if it doesn't get sore. I do feel it's an indicator of whether you did an exercise correctly when you're first starting off (if you're not sore from deadlifts the first time you do them with decent weight, you're probably not doing them right).

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

You know all those guys that go into the gym and do 100s of curls each and every day or maybe every other day for who knows how long? I'll bet money they feel DOMS. I'll bet they feel it every time. Explain to me why not every single one of those guys has the huge arms he desires.

It simply isn't an indicator. I don't get sore at all anymore but I continue to gain strength. My body is simply used to the rigors of my exercise but the weights increase and it's forced to adapt by becoming stronger, even if it doesn't get sore. I do feel it's an indicator of whether you did an exercise correctly when you're first starting off (if you're not sore from deadlifts the first time you do them with decent weight, you're probably not doing them right).

Well for me, it can sometimes be an indicator....I say sometimes, because my arms rarely get sore, notably the bicep....but my chest and back get sore, but after a great workout only...for instance...when I was fixated on weight on back day I wasn't using the best form and just trying to heave the weight on rows...but when I lightened the load and moved the weight slower and kept the rest of my body still....I was sore as shit the next day and have been every week since. Now those guys that do curls everyday prolly don't get doms...when I started hitting chest more than once a week I never got the doms..and my chest ALWAYS gets sore.

Thanks for the information everyone

Ronny

Try using a wider grip. See what happens then.

The point of performing different exercises is that they train different functions of the body. Remember, the body is not a series of disconnected parts that have nothing to do with one another. Take pullups for example. Take a close grip and work on the sagittal plane, and now your lats are performing shoulder extension. Take a wide grip and work on the front plane, and now your lats are performing shoulder adduction. You may be more neuroglogically efficient at one movement relative to the other. There will be some degree of carryover effect between similar movements, and they will have a synergistic effect in terms of strength. More weight being moved means more tension, which means more potential for growth.

In addition, certain movements change the emphasis on which muscle groups are doing the brunt of the work. If you can significantly change the prime movers involved in a movement, then you will be a well-rounded individual.

Then comes isolation movements. They are often able to place certain muscles under a greater amount of tension, but the endocrine response is weak. You do not stimulate enough musculature during isolation movements to get that hormonal response you need for optimal growth. So, performing heavier compound movements in addition to isolation movements will give you the best of both worlds.


Regarding DOMS, I do think it means something, but not by itself. If you are getting sore but you aren't eating enough, then you aren't going to grow. If you are getting sore but you have caused so much microtrauma to the skeletal muscle that you are unable to fully recover, and hopefully supercompensate, before your next bout of weight training, then you aren't going to grow.

Unfortunately, science cannot fully explain DOMS; no one really knows exactly what it means. There is some speculation that it is related to the calcium ion concentration in muscle fibers, which can be disrupted after heavy resistance training. Of course, how this relates to growth is unknown, at least to my knowledge. Once again, this is also only a theory.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If you are getting sore but you have caused so much microtrauma to the skeletal muscle that you are unable to fully recover, and hopefully supercompensate, before your next bout of weight training, then you aren't going to grow.

Are you subscribing to the single-factor theory?