Thread: CNS and training to failure.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Have read some training theorys about the CNS and training to failure. The basic idea of it is train to failure every set for about 6-7 weeks then take 2 weeks off form all training. Just wondered what you all thouight about this basic idea.

does the 2 weeks off, re-set your CNS to some kind of homeostasis, making the workouts more effective or something??

what are the benefits of this? IMO training to failure is overrated and unnecessary.

Do you have a link?

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

what are the benefits of this? IMO training to failure is overrated and unnecessary.

Just wondered what you all thouight about this basic idea.

This is a question....I would like intelligent and informative responces explaing the pros or cons of this idea.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Do you have a link?

No, it is just the basic idea of several training programs I have read in the last few weeks.

Well, you should definitely take a week off every 4-6 weeks, but active recovery is better.

I don't train to failure on every set, but I do for all compound movements.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Well, you should definitely take a week off every 4-6 weeks, but active recovery is better.

I don't train to failure on every set, but I do for all compound movements.

Most exercises are compound movements....about 95%.

I do 1 compound movement per motion, sometimes 2, and 3-5 assistance exercises, none of which are done to failure and none of which are compound.

Non-compound movements...

Bi Curl
Tri extension
lat raise
rear delt raise
front raise
calf raise
leg extension
leg curl
hip flexion
reverse hypers
SLDLs-Sort of, the shoulders do move so I s'pose you could say movement occurs over 2 joints
Scaption
shrugs
hip adduction & abduction

There are more.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Just wondered what you all thouight about this basic idea.

i saw that part, no need to bold it. if you've read some theories about it then there should have been benefits listed as well, no? i am wondering what those theoretical benefits are.

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

i saw that part, no need to bold it. if you've read some theories about it then there should have been benefits listed as well, no? i am wondering what those theoretical benefits are.

Um ok

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Um ok

or not...

True story

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

True story

thats not the ending

It is on this one

i think it sounds practical...... even though ive never really taken time off (intentionally.... aha)

what was mentioned earlier about how the CNS "re-aligns" to homeostasis sounds right to me, and in turn would help push in greater gains when returning to failure sets
now i have no medical claims behind that either, just my guess

i dont think TWO weeks sounds right though for 6-7 weeks of failure lifting..... id go with one week off for every 8-10 weeks

I don't think taking 2 weeks off is the best idea. Some level of detraining could occur at that point. I think implementing a form of periodization for your level of fatigue would make more sense:

Week A: Acclimation/Recovery - Lower volume and stop well short of failure
Week B: Maintenance - Bring volume back up and stop just short of failure
Week C: Overload - Increase volume slightly and achieve total failure on all sets

Something like that. Obviously more detail than that would be required for a successful program. The point here is that you during your active recovery weeks you should be recovering fully without any detraining taking place.

well if your training to failure, i would think your muscles would be hard up for energy and recovery time. Failure means using everything youve got... taking a total break after a while only makes sense so you can fully regenerate. At one point in time i did a routine where i severly overtrained on purpose, and then took a couple weeks off... i grew a ton over those two weeks and when i went back in the gym i was significantly stronger.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I don't think taking 2 weeks off is the best idea. Some level of detraining could occur at that point. I think implementing a form of periodization for your level of fatigue would make more sense:

Week A: Acclimation/Recovery - Lower volume and stop well short of failure
Week B: Maintenance - Bring volume back up and stop just short of failure
Week C: Overload - Increase volume slightly and achieve total failure on all sets

Something like that. Obviously more detail than that would be required for a successful program. The point here is that you during your active recovery weeks you should be recovering fully without any detraining taking place.

Nice answer....why the hell didnt they make you a mod???
Thanks for the input..

Pete Sisco swears by it - but he also advocates taking as long of a break between workout days as you need to fully recover, and partial reps or static holds, which, conveniently enough, he also sells a damn expensive machine that you can use for all of your static holds with....

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I don't think taking 2 weeks off is the best idea. Some level of detraining could occur at that point. I think implementing a form of periodization for your level of fatigue would make more sense:

Week A: Acclimation/Recovery - Lower volume and stop well short of failure
Week B: Maintenance - Bring volume back up and stop just short of failure
Week C: Overload - Increase volume slightly and achieve total failure on all sets

Something like that. Obviously more detail than that would be required for a successful program. The point here is that you during your active recovery weeks you should be recovering fully without any detraining taking place.

I don't follow this. So you are essentially saying don't train to failure all the time, just periodize relative intensity, or are you recommending to do it, then use weeks A, B, C as unloading weeks?

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

Have read some training theorys about the CNS and training to failure. The basic idea of it is train to failure every set for about 6-7 weeks then take 2 weeks off form all training. Just wondered what you all thouight about this basic idea.

Typically the CNS takes longer to recover then the Muscle fibres themselves.

A test was done on a group of people that did 6 sets of bench press to positive failure on each set.

Their Protein synthesis was elevated for only 48-62 hours after training and went back to normal drastically fast after 48 hours

CNS overstraining can take 2 weeks to get over and the main culprit is to failure training

So why rest 2 weeks just to let the CNS recover? as the muscle recover much faster. My conclusion is to train near failure hitting each bodypart twice per week.

I agree with a planned regime where you increase volume/intensity then go in a maintenance phase for a few weeks, but 6 weeks of all sets to failure is overkill and not needed unless you have very low volume.

Originally Posted by GymJamo

I agree with a planned regime where you increase volume/intensity then go in a maintenance phase for a few weeks, but 6 weeks of all sets to failure is overkill and not needed unless you have very low volume.

It's around 4 sets per muscle 2x every 8 days.

I don't have enough experience to give a well-informed opinion, but like GymJano said, the CNS takes much longer to recover than muscle fibers do -- so I'd expect that if you tried training to failure always for 6+ weeks you'd overtrain. Isn't CNS/kidney/other organ recovery also the reason why many people advocate never training on consecutive days?

Does training to failure induce hypertrophy that much better than training to near failure to make the extra rest time trade-off worth it?

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I don't follow this. So you are essentially saying don't train to failure all the time, just periodize relative intensity, or are you recommending to do it, then use weeks A, B, C as unloading weeks?

I'm saying that implementing failure training would make more sense in a cyclical manner. That is to say that you overload yourself with high volume and failure training and implement unloading weeks frequently to compensate. I just threw that little mini half assed routine out there. I was saying a mixture of unloading, overreaching, and maintenance/moderate volume training would probably make more sense.

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

It's around 4 sets per muscle 2x every 8 days.

I would say that is right on the limit for a drug free trainee if your talking real faliure.

2x a week is a good thing as the muscles will be fine with recovery BUT your risking CNS overtraining, personally I would do 5-6 sets 2x per 7-8 days changing a variable (exercise/reps etc) on each chest/back etc workout and going 1-2-3 reps shy of true failure for a stable routine and cycle intensity/volume with planned training cycles with a goal to hit PR`s.

The only thing with training 2x a week and including "failure" sets is that every time you workout chest,arms,back or whatever the CNS gets hit global (i.e. train your back CNS gets hit train your arms CNS gets hit) while muscles fiber damage can be localized the CNS cannot.

So I would be care full when making a 2x per week slit which is to "failure" every workout, meaning that it would be better to group many bodyparts together i.e. upper/lower and train 3/4 times a week then train a split where your in the gym 6 days a week dest destroying your CNS.

How many days you in the gym a week on that routine?

Oh, now I gots ya.

I concur.

It's funny too, there are no real signs of anaerobic overtraining, research has shown that strength can even INCREASE while your CNS is being overtrained.