Mass without Core lifts?

**weid34** · 01-15-2006, 09:41 AM

Can i bulk or gain serious mass without doing any of the compound lifts such as bench, squat, deadlift, bent over rows - (i still do chinups/pullups, dumbbell rows, and dips). I hurt my back couple months back and am still recovering and physical therapist cleared me to start working out again but said dont put any undue stress on it, so im steering clear of overhead pressing movements, most leg movements and other things. But otherwise still doing the same stuff, and for chest im using machines and cables. So is it possible to put on mass, or should i not eat as much and put off the bulk diet till later when im recoevered? thanx for the help.

**Squaggleboggin** · 01-15-2006, 09:49 AM

It's possible, but a very, very bad idea in my opinion. I'd just wait until I were fully recovered and then start doing the real stuff. Machines will cause muscle imbalances (over and underdevelopment), unrealistic motor patterns and the negligence altogether of certain muscles. I don't even see how you could work out without putting stress on something, but maybe that's just me. You can probably do BW stuff to maintain if you're worried (I don't know how long it will take to fully recover from the injury) about it that much, but I would honestly just wait until I could do compound movements. Just my opinion though.

**bulldogge** · 01-15-2006, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

It's possible, but a very, very bad idea in my opinion. I'd just wait until I were fully recovered and then start doing the real stuff. Machines will cause muscle imbalances (over and underdevelopment), unrealistic motor patterns and the negligence altogether of certain muscles. I don't even see how you could work out without putting stress on something, but maybe that's just me. You can probably do BW stuff to maintain if you're worried (I don't know how long it will take to fully recover from the injury) about it that much, but I would honestly just wait until I could do compound movements. Just my opinion though.

machines are just another tool in your weight training arsenal-----when i had my ACL operation i trained on machines exclusively for about 6monthes before that i was stuck in the free-weight mindset.Resistance is resistance weather it be in a machine or with free weights as long as you are progressing you are making gains in size and strength.Any type of training is better than no training.

just my opinion

**P-funk** · 01-15-2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by bulldogge

machines are just another tool in your weight training arsenal-----when i had my ACL operation i trained on machines exclusively for about 6monthes before that i was stuck in the free-weight mindset.Resistance is resistance weather it be in a machine or with free weights as long as you are progressing you are making gains in size and strength.Any type of training is better than no training.

just my opinion

I could see starting a rehab program with machines. After awhile you progress to free weights though because you need to strengthen those muscles which stabalize the joints.

also, like I said in the other thread, training exclusively can lead to pattern overload. It alters the proper biomechnics of the human body.

thanks for your opinion though.

**Squaggleboggin** · 01-15-2006, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by bulldogge

machines are just another tool in your weight training arsenal-----when i had my ACL operation i trained on machines exclusively for about 6monthes before that i was stuck in the free-weight mindset.Resistance is resistance weather it be in a machine or with free weights as long as you are progressing you are making gains in size and strength.Any type of training is better than no training.

just my opinion

Resistance is resistance, but I'd prefer to use the resistance that will allow me to build a balanced physique over one that isolates certain muscles. I'm not a bodybuilder so I wouldn't have any use for machines to be quite honest. I still don't think they should be all one uses, even on a temporary basis (depending how temporary).

**P-funk** · 01-15-2006, 10:09 AM

resistance is not resistance.....a 200lb bench press is not the same as a 200lb machine chest press.

**NEW_IN_THE_GAME** · 01-15-2006, 10:17 AM

True, I can bench 335 on a bar and bench. but on a machine I can bench 425. they are not the same. and back machines are a joke except for lat pull downs.

**Squaggleboggin** · 01-15-2006, 10:59 AM

I didn't say the numbers are the same for machines and free weights... I said that resistance is resistance, meaning your body will still have to adapt in some way if you apply force to resistance. I do think that machines offer resistance to more muscle and are about a million times better though.

**NEW_IN_THE_GAME** · 01-15-2006, 11:08 AM

ahh I see now.

**WantItBad** · 01-15-2006, 12:27 PM

back machines arent a total joke....the t-bar row is sweet and this hammer strength machine that we have at our gym hits the middle back pretty damn good

**CowPimp** · 01-15-2006, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

It's possible, but a very, very bad idea in my opinion. I'd just wait until I were fully recovered and then start doing the real stuff. Machines will cause muscle imbalances (over and underdevelopment), unrealistic motor patterns and the negligence altogether of certain muscles. I don't even see how you could work out without putting stress on something, but maybe that's just me. You can probably do BW stuff to maintain if you're worried (I don't know how long it will take to fully recover from the injury) about it that much, but I would honestly just wait until I could do compound movements. Just my opinion though.

Machines are a very important part of rehab. As I was coming back from my shoulder injury, I was using only machines and therabands for a little bit. It sucked ass, but once you throw a balanced freeweight training routine into the equation things even out quickly.

The problem is that freeweights often put too much stress on certain connective tissues or muscles that are in the process of healing. You need to impose some level of stress on them to strengthen them once you get past the initial healing phase when swelling/pain and severely restricted range of motion start to decline. However, freeweights put too much stress on them, and therefore may stifle the healing process.

**bulldogge** · 01-15-2006, 02:49 PM

this arguement goes on forever which is better machines or free weights personally i consider them tools.When i went back to using free weights i was stronger in some of the excercises and weaker in others,but it was a good learning experance.

but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.The same a comparing suited maxs and raw maxs in powerlifting two seperate beasts.

**CowPimp** · 01-15-2006, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by bulldogge

this arguement goes on forever which is better machines or free weights personally i consider them tools.When i went back to using free weights i was stronger in some of the excercises and weaker in others,but it was a good learning experance.

but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.The same a comparing suited maxs and raw maxs in powerlifting two seperate beasts.

I agree. Each has its place in a routine. On a very demanding routine like the one I am currently involved in, I make greater usage of machines. This is in an effort to reduce the stress on my CNS while allowing for a high volume of accessory work for the big 3 powerlifts. However, I still say a sound routine should be based around freeweight exercises, particularly if you are an athlete.

**Squaggleboggin** · 01-15-2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Machines are a very important part of rehab. As I was coming back from my shoulder injury, I was using only machines and therabands for a little bit. It sucked ass, but once you throw a balanced freeweight training routine into the equation things even out quickly.

The problem is that freeweights often put too much stress on certain connective tissues or muscles that are in the process of healing. You need to impose some level of stress on them to strengthen them once you get past the initial healing phase when swelling/pain and severely restricted range of motion start to decline. However, freeweights put too much stress on them, and therefore may stifle the healing process.

I totally agree, but it sounded more like he wanted to actually bulk up than just rehab using the machines. My opinion will also vary depending on the amount of time the machines will be used. For example, using them for six weeks and slowly incorporating free weights into a routine is fine; using machines and only machines for six months, however, seems a bit foolish to me in many respects.

**weid34** · 01-15-2006, 05:45 PM

wow i cant believe the amount of responses that i elicited here. Squaggleboggin, im lookin to do both, rehab and take it easy on the the back, while at the same time keep adding muscle. thats why im using machines b/c a. ive heard that using machines and cables are good for rehab and b. i use them for any lift that may put too much stress on the back until i am completely healed and can get back to free weights. thus my question, since im already back in the gym doing a limited routine, can i continue to add mass at the same time, without the core lifts.

**Squaggleboggin** · 01-15-2006, 06:05 PM

Sorry, I probably just took it out of context. Not that my opinion is the most important one here, but I think that would be just fine so long as you added free weights when you felt comfortable.

**BigDyl** · 01-15-2006, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Squaggleboggin

Sorry, I probably just took it out of context. Not that my opinion is the most important one here, but I think that would be just fine so long as you added free weights when you felt comfortable.

True Story

**JOHNYORK** · 01-15-2006, 10:36 PM

bebop sumtimes rocksteady

**CowPimp** · 01-16-2006, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by weid34

wow i cant believe the amount of responses that i elicited here. Squaggleboggin, im lookin to do both, rehab and take it easy on the the back, while at the same time keep adding muscle. thats why im using machines b/c a. ive heard that using machines and cables are good for rehab and b. i use them for any lift that may put too much stress on the back until i am completely healed and can get back to free weights. thus my question, since im already back in the gym doing a limited routine, can i continue to add mass at the same time, without the core lifts.

Try to use cables as much as possible, and incorporate freeweights wherever your injury allows for it.

**devildog88** · 01-16-2006, 10:53 AM

Free weights and machines have nothing on the BOWFLEX!

**CowPimp** · 01-16-2006, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by devildog88

Free weights and machines have nothing on the BOWFLEX!

True story.

**gopro** · 01-17-2006, 11:15 AM

Yes you can still build mass this way...of course not optimally, but you can. My suggestion, if it is mainly mass that you are after, is to keep your TUT relatively high with each movement...somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 seconds per set, emphasizing the eccentric portion of all lifts.

**weid34** · 01-17-2006, 11:35 AM

thanks Gopro. im not going extrmeely heavy b/c of the back issues, im trying to keepmy reps not any less than 8-10 reps per set. I can still build mass effectively, right? also, by eccentric portion of the movement, you mean when contrating the musle, right?

**Doublebase** · 01-17-2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by BigDyl

True Story

leave that crap in open chat and stop copying people.

**Squaggleboggin** · 01-17-2006, 12:18 PM

Eccentric is the negative portion. When doing curls, the portion of the movement when the weight is moving towards the floor is the eccentric portion.

Yes, you can still build mass effectively, but not optimally as he said. In other words, a combination of free weights and machines is often best.

**myCATpowerlifts** · 01-17-2006, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Doublebase

leave that crap in open chat and stop copying people.

True Story.

**squanto** · 01-17-2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by myCATpowerlifts

True Story.

**gopro** · 01-17-2006, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by weid34

thanks Gopro. im not going extrmeely heavy b/c of the back issues, im trying to keepmy reps not any less than 8-10 reps per set. I can still build mass effectively, right? also, by eccentric portion of the movement, you mean when contrating the musle, right?

Like I said, you can certainly build mass with isolation movements...it is just not optimal. Eccentric is the negative portion of the lift, when the muscle is lengthening. This is where the most fiber damage is caused, and that is a major trigger for growth.

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