Thread: Advice on New program

barbell press behind neck: drop these and do DB or military press..

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

barbell press behind neck: drop these and do DB or military press..

I've been under the impression that behind the neck presses will tear the crap out of your shoulders. Any truth to that?

Originally Posted by DOMS

I've been under the impression that behind the neck presses will tear the crap out of your shoulders. Any truth to that?

defenitly not the safest thing. in general, lowering weight behind your neck can get ugly and pressing up from behind your neck can get really ugly if you let the bar drift back. I do some light behind the neck presses and moderate behind the neck jerks with a snatch grip for my olympic lifts but other then that, if you aren't trying to be a competitive olympic lifter there is no sense in going there.

Originally Posted by P-funk

defenitly not the safest thing. in general, lowering weight behind your neck can get ugly and pressing up from behind your neck can get really ugly if you let the bar drift back. I do some light behind the neck presses and moderate behind the neck jerks with a snatch grip for my olympic lifts but other then that, if you aren't trying to be a competitive olympic lifter there is no sense in going there.

Thanks for confirming that.

On a somewhat related note, is it true that leg extensions cause so much shear on the knees that they shouldn't be done?

Originally Posted by DOMS

Thanks for confirming that.

On a somewhat related note, is it true that leg extensions cause so much shear on the knees that they shouldn't be done?

defenitly! It is an open chain exercise meaning that the application of force is not straight down through the center of gravity. this is a problem with the knee because it is not developed for a movement where load is placed at the distal end in this manner. What happens is that the quad tendons get pulled tight and as they apply force the drive the patella back into the knee joint (a place that it doesn't want to go) creating shearing forces.

Originally Posted by P-funk

defenitly! It is an open chain exercise meaning that the application of force is not straight down through the center of gravity. this is a problem with the knee because it is not developed for a movement where load is placed at the distal end in this manner. What happens is that the quad tendons get pulled tight and as they apply force the drive the patella back into the knee joint (a place that it doesn't want to go) creating shearing forces.

So, just to be clear, I need to stop doing them?

There is no reason at all to do leg extentions in the first place.

Why is that? Other than the (now) obvious shearing of the knees.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Why is that? Other than the (now) obvious shearing of the knees.

There are much better exercises, you should not have to resort to leg extensions. Squats, leg press, lunges, etc.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Why is that? Other than the (now) obvious shearing of the knees.

you need to stop because of the shear force and that is it. Why would you want to do an exercises that is proven to be damaging to your body. There are much better quad dominant exercises....lunges, bulgarian squats, back squat, front squat, that will not only train the knee extensors in their proper biomechanical movement. Think about, when in life do you extend your knee with weight on the front of your calf? Never! The human body is made to work as a whole. Not single muscles at a time.

Originally Posted by P-funk

you need to stop because of the shear force and that is it. Why would you want to do an exercises that is proven to be damaging to your body. There are much better quad dominant exercises....lunges, bulgarian squats, back squat, front squat, that will not only train the knee extensors in their proper biomechanical movement. Think about, when in life do you extend your knee with weight on the front of your calf? Never! The human body is made to work as a whole. Not single muscles at a time.

Don't misunderstand me, I'll stop doing them to spare my knees. I'm already convinced of that. It just seemed that Mudge had another compelling reason not to do them and being the curious person that I am, I asked why. Thanks for answering my question.

The bastardization of the leg extension is solely because they are an isolation exercise. I do them because my posterior kinetic chain is much stronger than my anterior at the knee(Don't know if the kinetic chain is referred to in this context). They are good for rehabbing and evening out strengths and weaknesses.

The major issue with the shear stress occurs at the bottom of the movement. When your leg is fully extended (Also happens to be where quadriceps force is greatest) there is less shear stress because the line of force is pulling the knee cap parallel to the femur, not down into it. The simple workaround is to set the leg extension up so that you miss the bottom 15 degrees or so of the movement, nearly all of the current leg extension machines have this ability, the one I use does.

Coincidentally, the greatest shear stress on the knee during a squat is at the bottom. Those who do ATG squats are actually putting as much shear stress on the knee at the bottom of the squat than they would at the bottom of the leg extension because the bottom of an ATG squat:

a)has the forces at the patellofemoral tendon directed down and into the femur.

b)typically is utilizing a much greater load.

Since the hips go into greater flexion during the squat, the forces are reduced, but the line of action is still into the femur. To even further lower the shear stress, a low bar position will put the hips and trunk into greater flexion. A wider stance also increases the shear stress.

So, since the squat is more functional, it is obviously better than doing leg extensions since they are an isolation exercise, but to eliminate a muscle imbalance, leg extensions are fine.

yea, for some injury re-hab they are okay or if you have some sort of imbalance as Dale said. Getting proper position is key as he instructed, don't try and start with the leg extension to far in the back position.

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, for some injury re-hab they are okay or if you have some sort of imbalance as Dale said. Getting proper position is key as he instructed, don't try and start with the leg extension to far in the back position.

The problem with giving this advice is that now kenwood will think he can base a whole routine around the leg extension.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

The problem with giving this advice is that now kenwood will think he can base a whole routine around the leg extension.

Only after asking 50 times.

Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. I also do front squats ATG. Other quad exercises will be lunges (DB and BB), step ups, leg press, and so forth. I only do leg ext. every once in a while, like once every 3-4 weeks. So if going ATG shears your knees more than a leg extension, would that be considered bad? I have never had knee problems or any kind of pain.

Originally Posted by shiznit2169

Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. would that be considered bad?

Only if eating a hotdog at the same time

Originally Posted by shiznit2169

Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. I also do front squats ATG. Other quad exercises will be lunges (DB and BB), step ups, leg press, and so forth. I only do leg ext. every once in a while, like once every 3-4 weeks. So if going ATG shears your knees more than a leg extension, would that be considered bad? I have never had knee problems or any kind of pain.

No, you are fine. I go ATG myself, I was using it as a point.

I never knew this. I do very heavy leg extentions too. I will stop doing them immediatley. I have seen people put them in programs and nobody has called them out on it so I thought they were ok to do.

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

Think about it. You half squat, whats underneath you? Your knees and thats it. You parallel squat, whats underneath you? your entire center of gravity. The knee wasnt meant to bend the way a half squat requires it to. Your body was made to work as a whole just like P said, the half squat isolates and doesnt use as many muscles as much as a parallel or full squat does. Just my 2cents

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

can you post the studies?

Anyway, squatting below parallel, besides getting more glute activation, also has the benefit of more VMO activation which can enhance knee stability which is a plus in athletes (especially woman). Just thought I would throw that in there.

Originally Posted by fUnc17

Think about it. You half squat, whats underneath you? Your knees and thats it. You parallel squat, whats underneath you? your entire center of gravity. The knee wasnt meant to bend the way a half squat requires it to. Your body was made to work as a whole just like P said, the half squat isolates and doesnt use as many muscles as much as a parallel or full squat does. Just my 2cents

that is a good point. majority of the people half squatting don't even get that right!! They are really knee dominant and not sitting back (fear??) which is far worse then getting your hip extensors involed in the lift.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

The major shear stress you need to worry about occurs at the patellofemoral joint, not at the PCL. I wouldn't worry about it, as long as you get decent hip flexion you are fine.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

The major shear stress you need to worry about occurs at the patellofemoral joint, not at the PCL. I wouldn't worry about it, as long as you get decent hip flexion you are fine.

Yeah, I was confusing two studies actually. One was regarding the squat as a useful rehab tool. The results said that recovering from an ACL injury was aided by squats, as not too much stress is placed on that ligament during squatting. However, the forces placed on the PCL during squatting shot up dramatically after 50 degrees of knee flexion, so anything beyond a partial squat was probably a bad idea for the early stages of rehab for that type of injury.

Here's the other study though:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

Musculoskeletal Biomechanics Research Laboratory, Department of Biokinesiology and Physical Therapy, University of Southern California, 1540 E. Alcazar Street, CHP-155, Los Angeles, CA 90033, USA. gsalem@hsc.usc.edu

OBJECTIVE:To characterize the biomechanics of the patellofemoral joint during squatting in collegiate women athletes. DESIGN: Repeated measures experimental design. BACKGROUND: Although squatting exercises are required components of most intercollegiate resistance-training programs and are commonly performed during rehabilitation, the effects of various squatting depths on patellofemoral joint stress have not been quantified. METHODS: Anthropometric data, three-dimensional knee kinematics, and ground reaction forces were used to calculate the knee extensor moment (inverse dynamics approach) in five intercollegiate female athletes during squatting exercise at three different depths (approximately 70 degrees, 90 degrees and 110 degrees of knee flexion). A biomechanical model of the patellofemoral joint was used to quantify the patellofemoral joint reaction force and patellofemoral joint stress during each trial. RESULTS: Peak knee extensor moment, patellofemoral joint reaction force and patellofemoral joint stress did not vary significantly between the three squatting trials. CONCLUSIONS: Squatting from 70 degrees to 110 degrees of knee flexion had little effect on patellofemoral joint kinetics. The relative constancy of the patellofemoral joint reaction force and joint stress appeared to be related to a consistent knee extensor moment produced across the three squatting depths. RELEVANCE: The results of this study do not support the premise that squatting to 110 degrees places greater stress on the patellofemoral joint than squatting to 70 degrees. These findings may have implications with respect to the safe design of athletic training regimens and rehabilitation programs.

so is my program ok??

Originally Posted by ironman512

so is my program ok??

no, lots of problems. You are missing a lot of back work....read cowpimp's thread on setting up a routine to get the idea. stop focusing on chest and shoulders so much.

5x5 should be done using a higher intensity. Something like 80%, or just over 80% would be more appropriate unless you are using like 30 second rest intervals...