Advice on New program

ironman512 · 02-14-2006, 04:18 PM

I was looking around trying to get a new routine and i thionk i found one. Tell we what you all think of the routine

Day 1(Bench n shoulders)
Bench press 5x5 @ 75% max
skull crushers 4x10
3 board press 1x5 1x3 1x3 1x3
barbell press behind neck 4x10

Day 2(Squats, upper back n core)
Squats 5x5 @ 75%
crucifix lunges 4x10
Lat pulldowns 4x10
wieghted situps 100 total reps

Day3 off

Day 4(Light bench and shoulders)
Bench press 5x2 @ 80% (this doesnt look like itl be light lol)
side raises 4x10
incline dumbell press 4x10
military press 3x8

Day5(deadlifts upper back n core)
deald lifts 5x5 @ 75%
rack pulls 1x2 1x2 1x1 1x1
DB rows 4x10
100 total situps

day 6 off
day 7 off

the assitant exercises would change every week or more and the main lifts reps range and percentages change throughout the course of 14 weeks then a rets period

TJ Cline · 02-14-2006, 04:21 PM

barbell press behind neck: drop these and do DB or military press..

DOMS · 02-14-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForemanRules

barbell press behind neck: drop these and do DB or military press..

I've been under the impression that behind the neck presses will tear the crap out of your shoulders. Any truth to that?

**P-funk** · 02-14-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

I've been under the impression that behind the neck presses will tear the crap out of your shoulders. Any truth to that?

defenitly not the safest thing. in general, lowering weight behind your neck can get ugly and pressing up from behind your neck can get really ugly if you let the bar drift back. I do some light behind the neck presses and moderate behind the neck jerks with a snatch grip for my olympic lifts but other then that, if you aren't trying to be a competitive olympic lifter there is no sense in going there.

DOMS · 02-14-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

defenitly not the safest thing. in general, lowering weight behind your neck can get ugly and pressing up from behind your neck can get really ugly if you let the bar drift back. I do some light behind the neck presses and moderate behind the neck jerks with a snatch grip for my olympic lifts but other then that, if you aren't trying to be a competitive olympic lifter there is no sense in going there.

Thanks for confirming that.

On a somewhat related note, is it true that leg extensions cause so much shear on the knees that they shouldn't be done?

**P-funk** · 02-14-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

Thanks for confirming that.

On a somewhat related note, is it true that leg extensions cause so much shear on the knees that they shouldn't be done?

defenitly! It is an open chain exercise meaning that the application of force is not straight down through the center of gravity. this is a problem with the knee because it is not developed for a movement where load is placed at the distal end in this manner. What happens is that the quad tendons get pulled tight and as they apply force the drive the patella back into the knee joint (a place that it doesn't want to go) creating shearing forces.

DOMS · 02-14-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

defenitly! It is an open chain exercise meaning that the application of force is not straight down through the center of gravity. this is a problem with the knee because it is not developed for a movement where load is placed at the distal end in this manner. What happens is that the quad tendons get pulled tight and as they apply force the drive the patella back into the knee joint (a place that it doesn't want to go) creating shearing forces.

So, just to be clear, I need to stop doing them?

**Mudge** · 02-14-2006, 08:16 PM

There is no reason at all to do leg extentions in the first place.

DOMS · 02-14-2006, 08:44 PM

Why is that? Other than the (now) obvious shearing of the knees.

MWpro · 02-15-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

Why is that? Other than the (now) obvious shearing of the knees.

There are much better exercises, you should not have to resort to leg extensions. Squats, leg press, lunges, etc.

**P-funk** · 02-15-2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOMS

Why is that? Other than the (now) obvious shearing of the knees.

you need to stop because of the shear force and that is it. Why would you want to do an exercises that is proven to be damaging to your body. There are much better quad dominant exercises....lunges, bulgarian squats, back squat, front squat, that will not only train the knee extensors in their proper biomechanical movement. Think about, when in life do you extend your knee with weight on the front of your calf? Never! The human body is made to work as a whole. Not single muscles at a time.

DOMS · 02-15-2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

you need to stop because of the shear force and that is it. Why would you want to do an exercises that is proven to be damaging to your body. There are much better quad dominant exercises....lunges, bulgarian squats, back squat, front squat, that will not only train the knee extensors in their proper biomechanical movement. Think about, when in life do you extend your knee with weight on the front of your calf? Never! The human body is made to work as a whole. Not single muscles at a time.

Don't misunderstand me, I'll stop doing them to spare my knees. I'm already convinced of that. It just seemed that Mudge had another compelling reason not to do them and being the curious person that I am, I asked why. Thanks for answering my question.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-15-2006, 09:17 AM

The bastardization of the leg extension is solely because they are an isolation exercise. I do them because my posterior kinetic chain is much stronger than my anterior at the knee(Don't know if the kinetic chain is referred to in this context). They are good for rehabbing and evening out strengths and weaknesses.

The major issue with the shear stress occurs at the bottom of the movement. When your leg is fully extended (Also happens to be where quadriceps force is greatest) there is less shear stress because the line of force is pulling the knee cap parallel to the femur, not down into it. The simple workaround is to set the leg extension up so that you miss the bottom 15 degrees or so of the movement, nearly all of the current leg extension machines have this ability, the one I use does.

Coincidentally, the greatest shear stress on the knee during a squat is at the bottom. Those who do ATG squats are actually putting as much shear stress on the knee at the bottom of the squat than they would at the bottom of the leg extension because the bottom of an ATG squat:

a)has the forces at the patellofemoral tendon directed down and into the femur.

b)typically is utilizing a much greater load.

Since the hips go into greater flexion during the squat, the forces are reduced, but the line of action is still into the femur. To even further lower the shear stress, a low bar position will put the hips and trunk into greater flexion. A wider stance also increases the shear stress.

So, since the squat is more functional, it is obviously better than doing leg extensions since they are an isolation exercise, but to eliminate a muscle imbalance, leg extensions are fine.

**P-funk** · 02-15-2006, 09:32 AM

yea, for some injury re-hab they are okay or if you have some sort of imbalance as Dale said. Getting proper position is key as he instructed, don't try and start with the leg extension to far in the back position.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-15-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, for some injury re-hab they are okay or if you have some sort of imbalance as Dale said. Getting proper position is key as he instructed, don't try and start with the leg extension to far in the back position.

The problem with giving this advice is that now kenwood will think he can base a whole routine around the leg extension.

DOMS · 02-15-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

The problem with giving this advice is that now kenwood will think he can base a whole routine around the leg extension.

Only after asking 50 times.

shiznit2169 · 02-15-2006, 12:10 PM

Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. I also do front squats ATG. Other quad exercises will be lunges (DB and BB), step ups, leg press, and so forth. I only do leg ext. every once in a while, like once every 3-4 weeks. So if going ATG shears your knees more than a leg extension, would that be considered bad? I have never had knee problems or any kind of pain.

Tough Old Man · 02-15-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit2169

Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. would that be considered bad?

Only if eating a hotdog at the same

time

**Dale Mabry** · 02-15-2006, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit2169

Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. I also do front squats ATG. Other quad exercises will be lunges (DB and BB), step ups, leg press, and so forth. I only do leg ext. every once in a while, like once every 3-4 weeks. So if going ATG shears your knees more than a leg extension, would that be considered bad? I have never had knee problems or any kind of pain.

No, you are fine. I go ATG myself, I was using it as a point.

Doublebase · 02-15-2006, 01:24 PM

I never knew this. I do very heavy leg extentions too. I will stop doing them immediatley. I have seen people put them in programs and nobody has called them out on it so I thought they were ok to do.

**CowPimp** · 02-16-2006, 10:25 AM

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

fUnc17 · 02-16-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

Think about it. You half squat, whats underneath you? Your knees and thats it. You parallel squat, whats underneath you? your entire center of gravity. The knee wasnt meant to bend the way a half squat requires it to. Your body was made to work as a whole just like P said, the half squat isolates and doesnt use as many muscles as much as a parallel or full squat does. Just my 2cents

**P-funk** · 02-16-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

Thoughts?

can you post the studies?

Anyway, squatting below parallel, besides getting more glute activation, also has the benefit of more VMO activation which can enhance knee stability which is a plus in athletes (especially woman). Just thought I would throw that in there.

**P-funk** · 02-16-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fUnc17

Think about it. You half squat, whats underneath you? Your knees and thats it. You parallel squat, whats underneath you? your entire center of gravity. The knee wasnt meant to bend the way a half squat requires it to. Your body was made to work as a whole just like P said, the half squat isolates and doesnt use as many muscles as much as a parallel or full squat does. Just my 2cents

that is a good point. majority of the people half squatting don't even get that right!! They are really knee dominant and not sitting back (fear??) which is far worse then getting your hip extensors involed in the lift.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-16-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more.

My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it.

02-14-2006, 04:18 PM	#1
ironman512 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 310 Photos: 122	Advice on New program BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com I was looking around trying to get a new routine and i thionk i found one. Tell we what you all think of the routine Day 1(Bench n shoulders) Bench press 5x5 @ 75% max skull crushers 4x10 3 board press 1x5 1x3 1x3 1x3 barbell press behind neck 4x10 Day 2(Squats, upper back n core) Squats 5x5 @ 75% crucifix lunges 4x10 Lat pulldowns 4x10 wieghted situps 100 total reps Day3 off Day 4(Light bench and shoulders) Bench press 5x2 @ 80% (this doesnt look like itl be light lol) side raises 4x10 incline dumbell press 4x10 military press 3x8 Day5(deadlifts upper back n core) deald lifts 5x5 @ 75% rack pulls 1x2 1x2 1x1 1x1 DB rows 4x10 100 total situps day 6 off day 7 off the assitant exercises would change every week or more and the main lifts reps range and percentages change throughout the course of 14 weeks then a rets period

02-14-2006, 04:21 PM	#2
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544	barbell press behind neck: drop these and do DB or military press..
TJ Cline Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,544

02-14-2006, 08:16 PM	#8
Mudge Pizza the Hut Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 22,993 Photos: 1	There is no reason at all to do leg extentions in the first place.
	Kinesiology Vote @ Top 25 Deads Comp Bench Motivation Bench form MaxCalc Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu I don't know any sources so don't ask - thanks

02-15-2006, 09:17 AM	#13
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,771 Photos: 10	The bastardization of the leg extension is solely because they are an isolation exercise. I do them because my posterior kinetic chain is much stronger than my anterior at the knee(Don't know if the kinetic chain is referred to in this context). They are good for rehabbing and evening out strengths and weaknesses. The major issue with the shear stress occurs at the bottom of the movement. When your leg is fully extended (Also happens to be where quadriceps force is greatest) there is less shear stress because the line of force is pulling the knee cap parallel to the femur, not down into it. The simple workaround is to set the leg extension up so that you miss the bottom 15 degrees or so of the movement, nearly all of the current leg extension machines have this ability, the one I use does. Coincidentally, the greatest shear stress on the knee during a squat is at the bottom. Those who do ATG squats are actually putting as much shear stress on the knee at the bottom of the squat than they would at the bottom of the leg extension because the bottom of an ATG squat: a)has the forces at the patellofemoral tendon directed down and into the femur. b)typically is utilizing a much greater load. Since the hips go into greater flexion during the squat, the forces are reduced, but the line of action is still into the femur. To even further lower the shear stress, a low bar position will put the hips and trunk into greater flexion. A wider stance also increases the shear stress. So, since the squat is more functional, it is obviously better than doing leg extensions since they are an isolation exercise, but to eliminate a muscle imbalance, leg extensions are fine.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-15-2006, 09:32 AM	#14
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,341	yea, for some injury re-hab they are okay or if you have some sort of imbalance as Dale said. Getting proper position is key as he instructed, don't try and start with the leg extension to far in the back position.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! http://ivonneberkowitz.blogspot.com/....check out Ivonne's new blog! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

02-15-2006, 12:10 PM	#17
shiznit2169 flawless Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,055 Photos: 3	Whenever i do squats, i always do them ATG. I also do front squats ATG. Other quad exercises will be lunges (DB and BB), step ups, leg press, and so forth. I only do leg ext. every once in a while, like once every 3-4 weeks. So if going ATG shears your knees more than a leg extension, would that be considered bad? I have never had knee problems or any kind of pain.
	My Journal

02-15-2006, 01:24 PM	#20
Doublebase Lightweight, Ya Buddy! Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philly Posts: 6,453	I never knew this. I do very heavy leg extentions too. I will stop doing them immediatley. I have seen people put them in programs and nobody has called them out on it so I thought they were ok to do.

02-16-2006, 10:25 AM	#21
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,405	I've read a couple of studies on the paletofemoral forces on the knee joint during a squat. From my understanding, the forces on the PCL raise dramatically once you go beyond about a 50 degree angle bend in the knees, but after about 70 degrees the forces don't raise too much more. My point is that squatting the parallel and squatting below parallel aren't that big of a difference in terms of stress on the knee, but the difference between a half squat and a parallel squat it. Thoughts?
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos