Thread: Good Mornings...primarily for back or hamstrings?

Originally Posted by AKIRA

This question stems from my leg day and deciding which deadlifts to do.

If Good Mornings are for back, then stiff-legged deads are for back, yes?
If Good Mornings are for hamstrings, then stiff-legged are for hams, yes?

And if one is correct, then how about regular deads, with a more so bended knee, what is the primary mover for that?

Fucking REAL confused here.

great job bro, u confused both of us

I'm confused about this too, which type of deadlift is for back/which for hams?

This comes back to the training movements not body parts.

Conventional deadlifts work MANY muscles, which is why it's considered a compound movement.

SLDL's work numerous muscle groups as well, but they are a primarly hamstring dominant movement. Just as an Incline Barbell bench works much more than just the chest.

Just as with SLDL's, Good Mornings (GM's), work more than one muscle. But they are primarily a lower back movement.

This is why it's MUCH easier to follow a program that trains movements, not body parts.

You said your leg day is what your having problems with. Well to be honest, you can do SLDL's on leg day or Conventional deads, doesn't matter. If I were you, I'd do one of two things. Either, A, do SLDL's on leg day, or B, do Conventional deads on leg day, NOT both. Switch em on and off, or just choose one of them and stick with it.

And the primary mover of the deadlift would be the back, only because of the location of the bar. If it were across your traps more emphasis would be placed upon your legs (squat). Same basic movement, but the location of the bar determines where the emphasis lays.

good mornings are meant to target low back, personally I do not recommend them.

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

good mornings are meant to target low back, personally I do not recommend them.

May I ask why? It seems to me, that if you can squat 315+ but can't GM 135 you could have some muscle imbalance issues that would likely lead to injury down the road.

Sure, if you try to use too much weight on GM's too quick (true of squats & deadlifts too...), you're most likely going to be injured, but I still think they're a good movement.

This is why body part training, and classifying exercises by body part, is retarded. Technically it's a lower back isolation exercise, and so is the SLDL/RDL. Both smash your entire posterior chain though.

Originally Posted by Seanp156

May I ask why? It seems to me, that if you can squat 315+ but can't GM 135 you could have some muscle imbalance issues that would likely lead to injury down the road.

Sure, if you try to use too much weight on GM's too quick (true of squats & deadlifts too...), you're most likely going to be injured, but I still think they're a good movement.

Good mornings are a riskier movement than many out there, but damn it if they aren't really effective. Rob has had his share of back problems, so I can't blame him for the suggestion.

good mornings are gor hamstrings.

deadlifts are for hamstrings.

both execises are hip extension on the concentric. It is simple biomechanics (also the reason why single body part training doesn't work). any dip shit bodybuilder that tells you deadlifting is for 'back' should also be doing bent over rows for their hamstring since it is an isometric contraction.

Originally Posted by Seanp156

May I ask why? It seems to me, that if you can squat 315+ but can't GM 135 you could have some muscle imbalance issues that would likely lead to injury down the road.

Sure, if you try to use too much weight on GM's too quick (true of squats & deadlifts too...), you're most likely going to be injured, but I still think they're a good movement.

in general, for most people, the risk is greater then the reward.

cowplop beat me to it...haha

I did good mornings for the first time the other day.. previously i've got accustomed to squats and deadlifts so my lower back handled it very well I think. Now be it practically a bare bar, but a day later I can say my hams got hit harder than ever before.

You should try Romanian deadlifts.

Originally Posted by DOMS

You should try Romanian deadlifts.

Arent they the same as SLDLs? Or are SLDLs Russian Deadlifts? Cant find my book so I dont know off the top pf my head.

I think everyone is getting a lil crazy about movements vs. bodyparts. TRUST ME, Ive adapted this and preached it in person to people not visiting this site.

Im very, very aware on what these damn deadlifts do. I am also aware there is more than 1 reason why there are different angles, forms, and grips to do these. Hence the questions I asked.

I really wanted to know about the good mornings from the deadlift ponderment. Since its a slightly different 'movement,' I was wondering if less/more muscles are involved. Particularily, the lower back.

(My lower back is fucked right now and Id like to know what to avoid or improve. And I am on my way the a muscle therapist or whatever you call it)

If your lower back is "fucked" right now, then you most likely want to avoid good mornings. I'm just assuming fucked means some kind of pain?

Well, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but the reason I promote thinking of lifting in movements so much is because everyone has the whole body part thing ingrained to the point where they can't visualize it any other way. This is flawed. I get tired of people asking me what muscle I'm working when I do clean & jerks, Turkish get-ups, or landmines. Everything dammit! The other reason being that thinking in body parts often leads to developing muscle imbalances and injuries later down the road. Not to mention it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, think about it. The SLDL and good morning are essentially the same movement, but the placement of the bar is different. You can generally use more weight on SLDLs simply because the bar is further away from the hip joint when doing good mornings, so there is more torque to counteract. Good mornings probably also place more stress on your spine, at equivalent loads, for this very reason.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If your lower back is "fucked" right now, then you most likely want to avoid good mornings. I'm just assuming fucked means some kind of pain?

Well, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but the reason I promote thinking of lifting in movements so much is because everyone has the whole body part thing ingrained to the point where they can't visualize it any other way. This is flawed. I get tired of people asking me what muscle I'm working when I do clean & jerks, Turkish get-ups, or landmines. Everything dammit! The other reason being that thinking in body parts often leads to developing muscle imbalances and injuries later down the road. Not to mention it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, think about it. The SLDL and good morning are essentially the same movement, but the placement of the bar is different. You can generally use more weight on SLDLs simply because the bar is further away from the hip joint when doing good mornings, so there is more torque to counteract. Good mornings probably also place more stress on your spine, at equivalent loads, for this very reason.

I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?

Originally Posted by AKIRA

Arent they the same as SLDLs? Or are SLDLs Russian Deadlifts?

no. RDLs = soft knees, the movement varies slightly.

what is a Russian DL?

Originally Posted by DOMS

I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?

yes, the bar on a good morning is further away from the hip joint then on an SLDL...Think about it. We keep the bar close to the hips on the SLDLs (or RDLs or deadlifts or cleans or snatches or whatever) in an effort to keep the load closest to the axis of rotation. By doing a good morning, in the 'bottom' positition, that bar is a good 2 feet or more (given different peoples torso lengths) away from that axsis of rotation, therefore, placing greater stress on the spine. Also, less weight is used because it is 'direct' loading of the spine so you are really going to have to stay tight to complete the concentric of the repetition where as with a deadlift (even though there shouldn't be) you have some leeway to bend or round a tad.

Originally Posted by DOMS

I thought that GMs had the bar further from the hip than SLDLs, which would mean that you couldn't use as much weight (simple lever mechanics)?

relatively the same distance from the hip but the weight distribution variable makes a lighter load necessary on a GM.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

Good mornings are a riskier movement than many out there, but damn it if they aren't really effective. Rob has had his share of back problems, so I can't blame him for the suggestion.

right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.

also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!

Originally Posted by P-funk

yes, the bar on a good morning is further away from the hip joint then on an SLDL...Think about it. We keep the bar close to the hips on the SLDLs (or RDLs or deadlifts or cleans or snatches or whatever) in an effort to keep the load closest to the axis of rotation. By doing a good morning, in the 'bottom' positition, that bar is a good 2 feet or more (given different peoples torso lengths) away from that axsis of rotation, therefore, placing greater stress on the spine. Also, less weight is used because it is 'direct' loading of the spine so you are really going to have to stay tight to complete the concentric of the repetition where as with a deadlift (even though there shouldn't be) you have some leeway to bend or round a tad.

you don't think it's about equal at the beginning of the movement?

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.

also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!

This message brought to you by Papa Dimaggio...

In all seriousness, no exercise movement is all that bad for you, it is when a lack of common sense and humility combine to have some retard doing a rounded back Good Morning with 200lbs.

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

you don't think it's about equal at the beginning of the movement?

think what is equal? The force? I think it is near equal at the begning of the movement (the standing position) sure. How much...who knows. When you extend your hips and get your body into that prone position I think the force is greater when the load is on your back then when it is being held in front of you. If it weren't people's good mornings would far surpass their deadlifting abilities.

you don't think?

Originally Posted by P-funk

think what is equal? The force? I think it is near equal at the begning of the movement (the standing position) sure. How much...who knows. When you extend your hips and get your body into that prone position I think the force is greater when the load is on your back then when it is being held in front of you. If it weren't people's good mornings would far surpass their deadlifting abilities.

you don't think?

no argument.

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

no argument.

wanna fight?

yes please

Originally Posted by CowPimp

If your lower back is "fucked" right now, then you most likely want to avoid good mornings. I'm just assuming fucked means some kind of pain?

Well, I don't want to speak for everyone else, but the reason I promote thinking of lifting in movements so much is because everyone has the whole body part thing ingrained to the point where they can't visualize it any other way. This is flawed. I get tired of people asking me what muscle I'm working when I do clean & jerks, Turkish get-ups, or landmines. Everything dammit! The other reason being that thinking in body parts often leads to developing muscle imbalances and injuries later down the road. Not to mention it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, think about it. The SLDL and good morning are essentially the same movement, but the placement of the bar is different. You can generally use more weight on SLDLs simply because the bar is further away from the hip joint when doing good mornings, so there is more torque to counteract. Good mornings probably also place more stress on your spine, at equivalent loads, for this very reason.

My pain isnt sharp or burning. Its merely a STIFF pain. I can hardly bring my knees to my chest during simple movments like putting on shoes to doing a SLDL. The guy that fucked with my back today said my left leg was shorter than the other and that the siatic(spelled it just like it sounds) nerve was being pinched. Is this guy bullshitting?

I have been meaning to stay away. In fact, when I was overtrained 2 weeks ago, this was another reason why I took a break.

Sooooooo, I was thinking about which deadlift move would cause the least pain, then thought about Good Mornings. Then the confusion set in.

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.

also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!

What other movements are just as good? Just deadlifts? I am talking about movements you can add weight to and increase strength.

Originally Posted by Robert DiMaggio

right, I do not think the risk of the movement is worth it, there are other things you can do for your lower back without the amount of risk involved in a good morning.

also, after many years of training and beating the hell out of my back if I could go back 15 years and do it all over I would take much better care of my back. if you are still young this will not mean anything to you, but keep training hard and heavy for another 15 years and you will know exactly what I am talking about!

So, you'd recommend doing things like rack deads, hyper extensions, conventional deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, etc over GM's ? Even though I might not have problems now, I certainly don't want them down the road either...

Originally Posted by Seanp156

So, you'd recommend doing things like rack deads, hyper extensions, conventional deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, etc over GM's ? Even though I might not have problems now, I certainly don't want them down the road either...

Those exercises are fine if you use good form, but deads will put a lot of extra wear and tear on your back/discs that will eventually catch up with you, I guess my advice would be do them sparingly and don't do anyhting under 8-10 reps.

I guess my point is if you beat your back to hell you will pay for it eventually when you're older as I am now.