Need a program evaluation

Muck · 02-22-2006, 12:24 AM

A forum member helped me make a new program, but I've since modified it due to time constraints. I'm trying to bulk and gain strength now, with a focus on my upper body (since my legs are a lot stronger...). My back, shoulders and traps seem to be getting stronger, but my chest and biceps don't seem to be. I've been training with the program since the beginning of January. I'm a beginner btw.

Alright, so the original program was a 4 day split Upper - Lower quad dom - rest - Upper - Lower ham dom - rest - rest. I added some exercises to the Upper days and since two weeks ago, I've squished all of the leg stuff into one day - it's midterm season and I don't have the time to go the gym 4 times a week anymore. The program now looks like this:

All exercises are 4 sets, 6 reps, 2 minutes rest unless otherwise noted. I don't know the proper terminology, but I lift enough weight so that I either am struggling with form by rep 6 or need the help of a spotter to finish it (for bench press). Also, there is no particular order for the exercises - perhaps I should implement one?

Monday - Upper 1
Bench Press - Barbell
Close Grip Bench Press - Barbell
Upright Row - Barbell
Bent Over Row - Barbell
Face Pull
Bicep Curls/Hammer Curls - 2 sets each
*Inclined Crunches
**Thing where you hold yourself up with your arms and raise your legs for abs.
*Side bends? (hold a dumbbell and lean sideways, straighten out - for obliques)
**Hyperextensions (Back Extensions)

* Super set 1
** Super set 2

Tuesday - Rest

Wednesday - Lower
Squat
Straight Leg Deadlift
Standing Calf Raises
Deadlift
45 Degree Leg Press
Good Morning (although I think that I will be eliminating these)

Thursday - Rest or Upper 2
Overhead Press - Barbell
Incline Bench Press - Dumbbell (as my friend/spotter is usually not there on those days and I don't like asking random dudes to spot me with a barbell)
Front Pulldown
Pull Over (machine)
Seated Row - Close Grip
Seated Triceps Press - Dumbbell
Same ab and lower back workout as Upper 1

Friday - Rest or Upper 2 (if didn't do Thursday)

Saturday and Sunday are resting days

I've also noticed that I have a recurring shoulder pain near the front of my left shoulder. It seems to be where the shoulder joint is, but closer to the chest than to the outside of the shoulder. I think that it's from my bench pressing. I always bring the barbell to my chest, which I believe makes my arms bend less than 90 degrees. Should the bench press always be until my arms make a 90 degree angle at the elbow joint? What does it mean when people say to tuck in my elbows?

Also, when I move to my cutting in a few weeks, I've been told to just stick to the same program, is that correct? (with obv diet change)

Lastly, I'm not sure if I'm doing the face pulls correctly. I haven't been able to find a video and the pics I found aren't much help.

Thx for any help.

**CowPimp** · 02-22-2006, 07:27 AM

In terms of balancing you push/pull movements and quad/ham movements you're doing pretty good. I do, however, feel that you should prioritize pulling movements one day (Start the workout with those) or alternate between push and pull movements.

One thing that seems off about this program is the length of your sessions. Particularly for your upper body days. Is it just me, or would this take more than 90 minutes to complete with 2 minute rest intervals?

In terms of exercise order, you want to begin with the compound movements, and the movements that stimulate a lot more musculature, first. For example, good mornings are technically an isolation movement, but they certainly should be performed before calf raises due to their highly demanding nature. In fact, I wouldn't do those last ever simply because you increase the risk of injury by performing those in a state of fatigue.

In terms of bench press form, I always touch the bar to my torso, but check these articles out:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/in...te_madness.htm
http://www.pssathletics.com/ArticleW...enchPressI.htm

Here's a description of face pulls:
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps2/strength...s.asp?exid=104

Muck · 02-22-2006, 09:19 AM

Yes, the upper days are really long. What I've been doing on Upper 1 is super sets of the bicep curls and the close grip bench press. I also try to super set inclined crunches w/ side bends and hyperextensions w/ leg raises. I think that I'm going to try to incorporate a lot more super setting - I used to only do that in the summer and I loved it. What would you recommend?

As for face pulls, I've been trying to do them as shown on this page, I just wasn't sure that I was doing the motion correctly since there is no video.

A friend of mine says that I don't do enough shoulders. He suggested that I maybe fit in an exercise or two on the leg day. What do you think?

Before I forget, great job on the program stickies. They are very informative.

Thx for the help.

**CowPimp** · 02-22-2006, 09:27 AM

I say don't listen to your friend. Everyone blasts their anterior delts to all Hell; the seem to go a little overboard to me. Remember, they are also used in the bench press, incline press, and CG bench press.

Here's how I would restructure your routine:

Monday - Upper 1
Bench Press - Barbell
Bent Over Row - Barbell
Close Grip Bench Press - Barbell
Face Pull
Upright Row - Barbell

Bicep Curls/Hammer Curls - 2 sets each
Inclined Crunches
Hanging Leg Raises

Tuesday - Rest

Wednesday - Lower
Squat
Deadlift
45 Degree Leg Press
Straight Leg Deadlift
Hyperextensions (Back Extensions)
Standing Calf Raises

Thursday - Rest or Upper 2
Front Pulldown
Overhead Press - Barbell
Seated Row - Close Grip
Incline Bench Press - Dumbbell (as my friend/spotter is usually not there on those days and I don't like asking random dudes to spot me with a barbell)
Pull Over (machine)

Seated Triceps Press - Dumbbell
Same ab and lower back workout as Upper 1

Something like that...

**CowPimp** · 02-22-2006, 09:29 AM

Oh, and to save time you could do antagonist supersets with the push and pull movements as they are listed (Superset bench press and bent rows, for example). Do something like bench, rest 1 min, row, rest 1 min, bench, rest 1 min, etc. That way you get 2 minutes of rest for the prime movers because you are using antagonist muscle groups.

I would also alternate repetition ranges and rest intervals and such at some point.

Also, I don't like the idea of upper body twice and lower body once, but your call I guess.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-22-2006, 09:44 AM

Bump to the supersets. One thing I like about antagonistic supersets for performance is that doing them should train away part of your inhibitory reflexes. Peep this, one of the initial adaptations to training is allowing greater recruitment of motor units and this comes via weakening unnecessary inhibitory mechanisms. When doing biceps, your triceps are inhibited via reciprocal inhibition. If you immediately jump to a tricep exercise right after a bicep exercise, you would have to think a bit of reciprocal inhibition would be going on from the previous set, especially for a beginner. By training like this, you should, in theory, be training your CNS to be more efficient and possibly hastening the process.

Also, I would do mostly static holds for abs if you are a beginner. Prone Bridge, holding legs at 6 inches, side bridges, etc.

Muck · 02-22-2006, 09:45 AM

The reason why I switched to one day of legs is because I no longer have the time to hit the gym 4 times a week. It's midterm season (and finals 3 weeks after that), and I'm really behind in my classes. I much prefer two leg days.

Why'd you eliminate the side bends? I guess that you don't like that exercise? I'll try my stuff out using your order and making use of super sets and let you know how it works out.

**P-funk** · 02-22-2006, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muck

Why'd you eliminate the side bends? I guess that you don't like that exercise? I'll try my stuff out using your order and making use of super sets and let you know how it works out.

because as a beginer (or even advanced lifter) chances are you need to work on stabalization of the spine more then you need to work on side bending (or even rotational strength). If you can stabalize a neutral spine how do you expect to perform side bends safetly without getting injured? How to expect to squat strong?

*jumps on soap box*

The whole idea of 'core' strength gets basterdized these days. Maybe it is because everyone has their own opinion about what it is or maybe it is because all of these "funtional strength" guys talk about it because it is hip and cool. Who knows. What core strength means to me is simpley the ability to stabalize your spine and pelvis through out full ROM movements. It has nothing to do with doing boat loads of crunches, bicycles and hanging leg raises. In my opinion, doing all that ab work is a waste of time since the stimulation of the abdominals from crunches has very little crossover to something like a squat or a deadlift. it has nothing to do with standing on a bosu ball or doing things on a stability ball. Although, as you become more advanced, balance training can be implemented as a tool in an overal strength program, but not as a focus (IMO). If you want to have what I feel is core strength (see my defenition above) you need to perform (a) full ROM lifts with good form and focus on maintaining good neutral posture and (b) some sort of stabalization exercises as a supplement (like a variety of bridges or some quadraped hip and arm extensions).

*off soap box*

**Dale Mabry** · 02-22-2006, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

basterdized

Good word, isn't it. I won't comment on the misspelling.

**P-funk** · 02-22-2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Good word, isn't it. I won't comment on the misspelling.

how do you spell it smart ass?

**Dale Mabry** · 02-22-2006, 10:08 AM

I am a dumbass, not a smartass, and it is bastardization, no e. Player hater.

**P-funk** · 02-22-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

I am a dumbass, not a smartass, and it is bastardization, no e. Player hater.

thanks Dale.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-22-2006, 10:13 AM

I am the guy in the tuke with the sledge and you are showing your awesome balance skills with the shovel.

**CowPimp** · 02-22-2006, 10:02 PM

To add on to what P-funk said, that's why I have been trying to implement more unilateral movements into my workouts: Bulgarian squats, uni bench pressing, lunges, etc. These types of movements require you to maintain that same posture you would with a bilateral movement, but adds an additional challenge. I think I'm going to start including one-armed deadlifts and such into my routine too. Those look killer.

Squaggleboggin · 02-22-2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowPimp

To add on to what P-funk said, that's why I have been trying to implement more unilateral movements into my workouts: Bulgarian squats, uni bench pressing, lunges, etc. These types of movements require you to maintain that same posture you would with a bilateral movement, but adds an additional challenge. I think I'm going to start including one-armed deadlifts and such into my routine too. Those look killer.

One-arm C&Js would be awfully fun. You should try out some type of dragging exercise during which you hold onto a strap, rope, etc with one hand and run while dragging something heavy behind you (as detailed in my journal). It's quite fun, actually. I'm honestly thinking of one-arm farmers walks and stuff like that. Take functional exercises and make them ten times more difficult. That's what it's all about.

**Dale Mabry** · 02-22-2006, 10:06 PM

Try 1-arm chest presses with the entire side of your body of the arm you are training off the side of the bench, being only supported by that leg. Talk about core activiation, I consider it one of the most functional pressing movements you can do, standing cable presses being another.

**CowPimp** · 02-22-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Try 1-arm chest presses with the entire side of your body of the arm you are training off the side of the bench, being only supported by that leg. Talk about core activiation, I consider it one of the most functional pressing movements you can do, standing cable presses being another.

That sounds like a bitch. Even without hanging your cheek off the bench it's difficult.

Also, the uni farmer's walks sound like a fun idea...

02-22-2006, 12:24 AM	#1
Muck Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15	Need a program evaluation A forum member helped me make a new program, but I've since modified it due to time constraints. I'm trying to bulk and gain strength now, with a focus on my upper body (since my legs are a lot stronger...). My back, shoulders and traps seem to be getting stronger, but my chest and biceps don't seem to be. I've been training with the program since the beginning of January. I'm a beginner btw. Alright, so the original program was a 4 day split Upper - Lower quad dom - rest - Upper - Lower ham dom - rest - rest. I added some exercises to the Upper days and since two weeks ago, I've squished all of the leg stuff into one day - it's midterm season and I don't have the time to go the gym 4 times a week anymore. The program now looks like this: All exercises are 4 sets, 6 reps, 2 minutes rest unless otherwise noted. I don't know the proper terminology, but I lift enough weight so that I either am struggling with form by rep 6 or need the help of a spotter to finish it (for bench press). Also, there is no particular order for the exercises - perhaps I should implement one? Monday - Upper 1 Bench Press - Barbell Close Grip Bench Press - Barbell Upright Row - Barbell Bent Over Row - Barbell Face Pull Bicep Curls/Hammer Curls - 2 sets each Inclined Crunches Thing where you hold yourself up with your arms and raise your legs for abs. Side bends? (hold a dumbbell and lean sideways, straighten out - for obliques) *Hyperextensions (Back Extensions) Super set 1 ** Super set 2 Tuesday - Rest Wednesday - Lower Squat Straight Leg Deadlift Standing Calf Raises Deadlift 45 Degree Leg Press Good Morning (although I think that I will be eliminating these) Thursday - Rest or Upper 2 Overhead Press - Barbell Incline Bench Press - Dumbbell (as my friend/spotter is usually not there on those days and I don't like asking random dudes to spot me with a barbell) Front Pulldown Pull Over (machine) Seated Row - Close Grip Seated Triceps Press - Dumbbell Same ab and lower back workout as Upper 1 Friday - Rest or Upper 2 (if didn't do Thursday) Saturday and Sunday are resting days I've also noticed that I have a recurring shoulder pain near the front of my left shoulder. It seems to be where the shoulder joint is, but closer to the chest than to the outside of the shoulder. I think that it's from my bench pressing. I always bring the barbell to my chest, which I believe makes my arms bend less than 90 degrees. Should the bench press always be until my arms make a 90 degree angle at the elbow joint? What does it mean when people say to tuck in my elbows? Also, when I move to my cutting in a few weeks, I've been told to just stick to the same program, is that correct? (with obv diet change) Lastly, I'm not sure if I'm doing the face pulls correctly. I haven't been able to find a video and the pics I found aren't much help. Thx for any help. Last edited by Muck : 02-22-2006 at 09:25 AM.
Muck Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15

02-22-2006, 07:27 AM	#2
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,434	In terms of balancing you push/pull movements and quad/ham movements you're doing pretty good. I do, however, feel that you should prioritize pulling movements one day (Start the workout with those) or alternate between push and pull movements. One thing that seems off about this program is the length of your sessions. Particularly for your upper body days. Is it just me, or would this take more than 90 minutes to complete with 2 minute rest intervals? In terms of exercise order, you want to begin with the compound movements, and the movements that stimulate a lot more musculature, first. For example, good mornings are technically an isolation movement, but they certainly should be performed before calf raises due to their highly demanding nature. In fact, I wouldn't do those last ever simply because you increase the risk of injury by performing those in a state of fatigue. In terms of bench press form, I always touch the bar to my torso, but check these articles out: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/in...te_madness.htm http://www.pssathletics.com/ArticleW...enchPressI.htm Here's a description of face pulls: http://www.bsu.edu/webapps2/strength...s.asp?exid=104
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

02-22-2006, 09:19 AM	#3
Muck Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15	Yes, the upper days are really long. What I've been doing on Upper 1 is super sets of the bicep curls and the close grip bench press. I also try to super set inclined crunches w/ side bends and hyperextensions w/ leg raises. I think that I'm going to try to incorporate a lot more super setting - I used to only do that in the summer and I loved it. What would you recommend? As for face pulls, I've been trying to do them as shown on this page, I just wasn't sure that I was doing the motion correctly since there is no video. A friend of mine says that I don't do enough shoulders. He suggested that I maybe fit in an exercise or two on the leg day. What do you think? Before I forget, great job on the program stickies. They are very informative. Thx for the help.
Muck Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15

02-22-2006, 09:27 AM	#4
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,434	I say don't listen to your friend. Everyone blasts their anterior delts to all Hell; the seem to go a little overboard to me. Remember, they are also used in the bench press, incline press, and CG bench press. Here's how I would restructure your routine: Monday - Upper 1 Bench Press - Barbell Bent Over Row - Barbell Close Grip Bench Press - Barbell Face Pull Upright Row - Barbell Bicep Curls/Hammer Curls - 2 sets each Inclined Crunches Hanging Leg Raises Tuesday - Rest Wednesday - Lower Squat Deadlift 45 Degree Leg Press Straight Leg Deadlift Hyperextensions (Back Extensions) Standing Calf Raises Thursday - Rest or Upper 2 Front Pulldown Overhead Press - Barbell Seated Row - Close Grip Incline Bench Press - Dumbbell (as my friend/spotter is usually not there on those days and I don't like asking random dudes to spot me with a barbell) Pull Over (machine) Seated Triceps Press - Dumbbell Same ab and lower back workout as Upper 1 Something like that...
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

02-22-2006, 09:29 AM	#5
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,434	Oh, and to save time you could do antagonist supersets with the push and pull movements as they are listed (Superset bench press and bent rows, for example). Do something like bench, rest 1 min, row, rest 1 min, bench, rest 1 min, etc. That way you get 2 minutes of rest for the prime movers because you are using antagonist muscle groups. I would also alternate repetition ranges and rest intervals and such at some point. Also, I don't like the idea of upper body twice and lower body once, but your call I guess.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

02-22-2006, 09:44 AM	#6
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	Bump to the supersets. One thing I like about antagonistic supersets for performance is that doing them should train away part of your inhibitory reflexes. Peep this, one of the initial adaptations to training is allowing greater recruitment of motor units and this comes via weakening unnecessary inhibitory mechanisms. When doing biceps, your triceps are inhibited via reciprocal inhibition. If you immediately jump to a tricep exercise right after a bicep exercise, you would have to think a bit of reciprocal inhibition would be going on from the previous set, especially for a beginner. By training like this, you should, in theory, be training your CNS to be more efficient and possibly hastening the process. Also, I would do mostly static holds for abs if you are a beginner. Prone Bridge, holding legs at 6 inches, side bridges, etc.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-22-2006, 09:45 AM	#7
Muck Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15	The reason why I switched to one day of legs is because I no longer have the time to hit the gym 4 times a week. It's midterm season (and finals 3 weeks after that), and I'm really behind in my classes. I much prefer two leg days. Why'd you eliminate the side bends? I guess that you don't like that exercise? I'll try my stuff out using your order and making use of super sets and let you know how it works out.
Muck Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15

02-22-2006, 10:08 AM	#11
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	I am a dumbass, not a smartass, and it is bastardization, no e. Player hater.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-22-2006, 10:13 AM	#13
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	I am the guy in the tuke with the sledge and you are showing your awesome balance skills with the shovel.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

02-22-2006, 10:02 PM	#14
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,434	To add on to what P-funk said, that's why I have been trying to implement more unilateral movements into my workouts: Bulgarian squats, uni bench pressing, lunges, etc. These types of movements require you to maintain that same posture you would with a bilateral movement, but adds an additional challenge. I think I'm going to start including one-armed deadlifts and such into my routine too. Those look killer.
	The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... CowPimp Picks Up Heavy Shit MySpace YouTube Videos

02-22-2006, 10:06 PM	#16
Dale Mabry Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 13,883 Photos: 10	Try 1-arm chest presses with the entire side of your body of the arm you are training off the side of the bench, being only supported by that leg. Talk about core activiation, I consider it one of the most functional pressing movements you can do, standing cable presses being another.
	If sense were common, everyone would have it. 4/2007-Current 75th Ranked most popular image 1 spot behind Prince's bulge...

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