Thread: Always go to failure on the 3rd set?

Add weight and maintain the reps until your reps and weight reach a balance.
..so if you wanna do a 10 8 6, inverted pyramid deal and you can still do more after the last 6...max out and add the weight to your 10 set next time...
Also the reps are there just as a guide...so rather than adhereing to 10 8 6 think of it as 8-10 6-8 4-6....or 10-12 8-10 6-8,
somedays you might get stuck inbetween at a 9, 7, or 5.
If you cant do 4 on your last set, you need to take the weight off somewhere, if you can more than 8 on your last set, you need to add it somewhere, I'd put it at the top set.

I don't think training to failure all the time is a good idea. It can work if you use a very low level of volume though.

Always, there is no.

Fail to succeed: Ideally, you would want to do some sort of periodization in order for training to failure to be ultimately effective in a hypertrophy phase of training.

There are several ways in which you can structure your program so that each set for a given exercise/body part can be taken to momentary muscular failure.

You can choose a few exercises to fail on each training day.

Vary your rep schemes with each set for failure - 10,8,6 one day - for a few exercises; 3 x 8 - for another day, or even 1 set of 10 - using the heaviest weight(s) possible.

Or train to failure on each set during your last training session of the week. As you are working out 3 days a week with 2 full days off?

TUT is also a consideration...

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I don't think training to failure all the time is a good idea. It can work if you use a very low level of volume though.

Agreed, a lower level of volume is a good environment to induce failure.

i'm not a fan of training to failure but that's me.

Thanks all for responding. I guess I've been trying to maximize the breakdown of muscle so that it will grow bigger. I don't really have any other goals except tearing down and healing bigger. If I can stop at 6 reps and not try for 8, and still tear it down as much, then i will. I don't want to work harder for worse results.

Training to failure certainly has its appeal. The notion of not stopping until you're forced to, rather than when you choose to, makes it sound as if you're efforts will produce greater strength or hypertrophy (whatever your goals are).

But after listening to the stories of others, reading many an article, and my own personal experiences, I've come to think of 'training to failure' as 'training to injury'.

When you've pushed yourself to the limit your form suffers no matter how hard to try to keep it textbook. Barbells wobble during the bench press, you drop too quickly in the squat, and your back rounds during a pull.

Yeah, I'm sure there is some physiological benefit reaped from training to failure, but it's just not worth it. At least not to me.

Originally Posted by DOMS

Training to failure certainly has its appeal. The notion of not stopping until you're forced to, rather than when you choose to, makes it sound as if you're efforts will produce greater strength or hypertrophy (whatever your goals are).

But after listening to the stories of others, reading many an article, and my own personal experiences, I've come to think of 'training to failure' as 'training to injury'.

When you've pushed yourself to the limit your form suffers no matter how hard to try to keep it textbook. Barbells wobble during the bench press, you drop too quickly in the squat, and your back rounds during a pull.

Yeah, I'm sure there is some physiological benefit reaped from training to failure, but it's just not worth it. At least not to me.

Good answer

I never thought of it like that.

My goal is to have bigger muscles. If injury were not a concern, would going to failure be the best way to tear it down? Thanks.

When training to failure you do get to choose how you respond to any given rep, set, and exercise. Form should never be compromised; when you reach your limit, the performance capacity of a set, you should still be able to control the last rep.

Training to failure is not something that should be continued indefinitely. It should be part of an intelligent approach to training and included in a comprehensive training program.

If anything, the real danger in training to failure is improper lifting technique and the overuse of the method itself…

Originally Posted by furion joe

When training to failure you do get to choose how you respond to any given rep, set, and exercise. Form should never be compromised; when you reach your limit, the performance capacity of a set, you should still be able to control the last rep.

Training to failure is not something that should be continued indefinitely. It should be part of an intelligent approach to training and included in a comprehensive training program.

If anything, the real danger in training to failure is improper lifting technique and the overuse of the method itself…

I dunno man, when I was doing HIT there was no way in Hell I could keep my form looking nice going as hard as I did.

Have you ever hit concentric failure and not given up, you kept pushing, and it took like 20 seconds to push you back down in the hole during a squat? You then continued to push against the bar sitting on the rack for another 20-30 seconds, taken the bar back up, and rest-paused out another couple of reps, taken the bar back up, and rest-paused out another rep or two? I did, and although my form wasn't total garbage, it wasn't as pretty as I like it to be.

Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

My goal is to have bigger muscles. If injury were not a concern, would going to failure be the best way to tear it down? Thanks.

No, because you would probably burn out your nervous system eventually like that. Again, if you kept the volume incredibly low and switched your exercises around a lot you could probably avoid that, but it would still be beneficial to increase the volume from time to time. There is no one best method. You should change around the parameters of your training program frequently, hence why periodization makes sense.

Regarding periodization, would taking time off be just as beneficial as going with lighter weight for higher reps and no failure? I've read alot here and other places, and i'm not convinced I can grow bigger from lighter weight more reps, no failure. Personally, when I lift like this I don't sense that my muscles have been torn down. I would rather take time off and rest my CNS (maybe do some cardio), and then go heavy again instead of going lighter. Does this make sense? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mike Tuvre, USA

Regarding periodization, would taking time off be just as beneficial as going with lighter weight for higher reps and no failure? I've read alot here and other places, and i'm not convinced I can grow bigger from lighter weight more reps, no failure. Personally, when I lift like this I don't sense that my muscles have been torn down. I would rather take time off and rest my CNS (maybe do some cardio), and then go heavy again instead of going lighter. Does this make sense? Thanks.

Yeah, you can take time off. I prefer to avoid that because it drives me insane though.

Also, you don't necessarily have to go light to avoid failure. I have performed 8 sets of 3 repetitions using my 5-6RM. That's pretty heavy, but I don't hit failure. I come damned close at the end though.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I dunno man, when I was doing HIT there was no way in Hell I could keep my form looking nice going as hard as I did.

Have you ever hit concentric failure and not given up, you kept pushing, and it took like 20 seconds to push you back down in the hole during a squat? You then continued to push against the bar sitting on the rack for another 20-30 seconds, taken the bar back up, and rest-paused out another couple of reps, taken the bar back up, and rest-paused out another rep or two? I did, and although my form wasn't total garbage, it wasn't as pretty as I like it to be.

Honestly no, not that I can say. Your commitment and dedication to push yourself past your normal limit/threshold is admirable. I've never used the rest-pause technique, even when training to failure, wouldn't even think of it, I'd be dead! lol

Seriously though, I posted that particular statement in general terms so I wouldn't be picking on DOMS. I do not wish to disrespect his way of training or yours for that matter. But, there is no way I can sit back and listen to people talk about training to failure like it has to be an all out, all costs (sacrificing mechanics), type of workout to be successful. Most of what I read, it seems that the method itself is not being utilized properly. If that style of training doesn't work for a particular individual, that's quite alright. He or she can move on and try something else that will work. It just irks me a bit when training to failure is bashed; it's like there is this stigmatism attached to it, and for me, it's not justified.

My interpretation of momentary muscular failure is such that one cannot do another rep without sacrificing form. The last rep should be taxing and a struggle; a chosen movement however, should be fluid and rhythmic, like a piston moving in an engine. Time under tension does make training to failure more of a challenge, but a ratio of 1:1 concentric to eccentric works well for this method, or even 1:2. The basic idea is to think about the muscle and the contraction/stress imposed upon, not so much the weight, it's a means to an end.

All that wiggly, jiggly stuff is no good. When I was younger, I was always pushing the heaviest weights possible, forgoing form and my muscles, joints, and tendons paid for that ignorance/sacrifice. So now, when I hear about, or see people applying improper form to an exercise, I have to shake my head in disbelief. I didn't start to make quality gains in muscle mass until I developed and maintained strict exercise form, even with the last rep of a set, and my joints and tendons were most appreciative. You get to control the movement and the poundage used, not vice versa. That's when things get ugly. My experience thus far with training to failure has been a positive one and I would like people to understand that there is always a risk involved when a certain training method/technique is not followed properly or utilized as effectively as it can be.

Didn't mean to rant or sound annoyed, I just wanted to be thorough and express my own point of view on the subject.

Originally Posted by furion joe

Honestly no, not that I can say. Your commitment and dedication to push yourself past your normal limit/threshold is admirable. I've never used the rest-pause technique, even when training to failure, wouldn't even think of it, I'd be dead! lol

Seriously though, I posted that particular statement in general terms so I wouldn't be picking on DOMS. I do not wish to disrespect his way of training or yours for that matter. But, there is no way I can sit back and listen to people talk about training to failure like it has to be an all out, all costs (sacrificing mechanics), type of workout to be successful. Most of what I read, it seems that the method itself is not being utilized properly. If that style of training doesn't work for a particular individual, that's quite alright. He or she can move on and try something else that will work. It just irks me a bit when training to failure is bashed; it's like there is this stigmatism attached to it, and for me, it's not justified.

My interpretation of momentary muscular failure is such that one cannot do another rep without sacrificing form. The last rep should be taxing and a struggle; a chosen movement however, should be fluid and rhythmic, like a piston moving in an engine. Time under tension does make training to failure more of a challenge, but a ratio of 1:1 concentric to eccentric works well for this method, or even 1:2. The basic idea is to think about the muscle and the contraction/stress imposed upon, not so much the weight, it's a means to an end.

All that wiggly, jiggly stuff is no good. When I was younger, I was always pushing the heaviest weights possible, forgoing form and my muscles, joints, and tendons paid for that ignorance/sacrifice. So now, when I hear about, or see people applying improper form to an exercise, I have to shake my head in disbelief. I didn't start to make quality gains in muscle mass until I developed and maintained strict exercise form, even with the last rep of a set, and my joints and tendons were most appreciative. You get to control the movement and the poundage used, not vice versa. That's when things get ugly. My experience thus far with training to failure has been a positive one and I would like people to understand that there is always a risk involved when a certain training method/technique is not followed properly or utilized as effectively as it can be.

Didn't mean to rant or sound annoyed, I just wanted to be thorough and express my own point of view on the subject.

There are different definitions of failure. Concentric failure and eccentric failure come to mind. When I was doing HIT I attempted to achieve eccentric failure on every set, which can be a little riskier I must admit. When you can no longer lower the weight under control, your form is going to be a little off.

I never bashed failure training. In fact, I made some excellent progress when I was doing HIT. I mentioned a couple of ideas to implement into your training routine to prevent trashing your CNS: using a very low level of volume, taking time off or lowering the level of effort periodically, and switching the exercises frequently. However, I still feel training to failure all the time is not an optimal way of training, and I stand by that statement.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

There are different definitions of failure. Concentric failure and eccentric failure come to mind. When I was doing HIT I attempted to achieve eccentric failure on every set, which can be a little riskier I must admit. When you can no longer lower the weight under control, your form is going to be a little off.

I never bashed failure training. In fact, I made some excellent progress when I was doing HIT. I mentioned a couple of ideas to implement into your training routine to prevent trashing your CNS: using a very low level of volume, taking time off or lowering the level of effort periodically, and switching the exercises frequently. However, I still feel training to failure all the time is not an optimal way of training, and I stand by that statement.

Key-rap! I must have had blinders on during my last post!

Yes, there are different definitions of failure and it goes to show that there is no definitive answer as to how the method is going to interpreted or executed.

It's cool man, I know you never bashed training to failure. I made sure that I used the term "people" so that it would reflect the general consensus of those who are against the practice. Actually, I just beat down a dead horse. I've seen numerous articles and members of various forums calling out training to failure disciples - saying how detrimental it is, how it's not the best training method, etc, etc. And I don't think I will pursue the argument in the future; I'm just wasting valuable time, as you can never overestimate your ability to change someone's behavior or ideas possessed therein.

The latter part of your post is right on and those ideas are the correct ones to keep in mind, evaluate, and implement when training to failure.

Originally Posted by furion joe

Seriously though, I posted that particular statement in general terms so I wouldn't be picking on DOMS. I do not wish to disrespect his way of training or yours for that matter.

You write well crafted and thought out posts, there is no way I'd be offended if you directed them specifically at me.

As for training to failure, I do it after a fashion. I'll push myself until I feel that my form starts to suffer. I'll also stop if my tempo moves to far away from my goal. So if my tempo is 1/x/4/x and I find it takes 8 or more seconds to on the concentric, then I stop.

I realize that bodybuilding has an inherent risk and wears on the body, but I've chosen not to do things that increase the risk to much, such as training to true failure, leg extensions, and behind-the-neck presses. But that's just me.

i pretty much always train to failiure on my last sets, if i've got extra reps in the tank then why not?

"no pain, no gain"

Originally Posted by The13ig13adWolf

i'm not a fan of training to failure but that's me.

I'm a fan of you.